Buttkicker Mini LFE / Simvibe in general question

[anton_Chez]

Hi guys,

Just testing the new Mini LFE's I've replaced my Aura Bass Shakers with and found something a little odd. Even when testing in Simvibe speaker settings, one seems a little louder than the other. I was running chassis mode with the old setup and I did notice this too with the Aura's but I never paid much attention to it. Now, with the Mini LFE's mounted right next to me (I am sitting between them on top of an old small coffee table), one gets really hot while the other one seems to stay pretty much cool to touch.

I am wondering if anyone has experienced anything like this before. I am trying to narrow it down to the power / signal that Simvibe sends to its various channels (Seat, Pedals, Shifter and Wheel when running in Extensions mode and FL FR RL RR when running Chassis mode) or it's my amp/s. I have 2 SMSL 2 x 160W amps and I've been running 2 mini's from the one amp most of today just playing with settings. One is super warm after a while, the other, I needed to check if it was on, which it was.

I was running Seat and Shifter (I think it's hard to choose which actual output you use and generally it's up to the output on your soundcard which output Simvibe chooses) if that helps any. From memory the shifter output was the hot mini lfe.

Tomorrow I am going to run the other amp and see if the same thing happens. If it does, then I can only assume that Simvibe has a bug or something going on somewhere where the output to the channels is not even, even when the settings are identical for each output. Also should be noted that my amp is giving nowhere near the max power that the mini can handle, and while it's heaps for Simvibe, what would happen when running even more power to it?

Anyone with any ideas or a similar setup / experience, chime in your thoughts!

 

[Mr Latte]

Its possible one of the units may need to be lubricated. I have found this variation also and think others have came across it too with differences in same model units. By chance, has the unit that is less strong, does it sound louder in operation even though it outputs less strength?

If its not the unit then you can alter your channel output levels to balance them via your soundcard.
I don't think this is a Simvibe issue

You will find that Simvibes default settings for most if not all effects stay away from usage of low frequencies and high volume settings. Reduce the volume and reduce the range some frequencies use and this will help units run cooler. Buttkicker amps offer a crossover control but many standard amps do not have one.

The Shifter unit you mention is it also running engine?
Take note that high frequencies operating at over 100 times per second (100Hz) will cause the unit to generate heat. Yet over this produces little sensation for most people. However, the mini-lfe units thermal protection can be triggered with heat issues with excessive energy placed on low frequencies (below 30Hz). An effect like engine which operates almost constantly and with multiple layers or harmonics being added. By the very nature in how frequencies/harmonics work it will have Hz operating beyond 100Hz.

It is potentially possible you could buy hardware or some software may allow you to restrict a max frequency limit that the amp will use and send to the units. This regardless if harmonics or Simvibe effects go beyond 100Hz.

Also take note that "Texture" effects (with no tone controls) can have frequencies go beyond well over 1000Hz. Reducing the number of effects being used may also help the units running cooler.

 

[anton_Chez]

Hi Rod,

I am not sure about the louder operation. In the Simvibe test section, the little burst you get to test the outputs, one just sounds SLIGHTLY louder in it's tone than the other. The hot one is the louder tone, but only very slightly. It very well may be a sound output balance issue from the onboard sound card I use for Simvibe. I might try a 5% balance swing over to the cooler one and see if that helps balance out the heat. Until now it has not cut out and I am running the amp pretty hard to get the thing tuned. I don't intend on running it full boar as the kickers seem to work just fine and pretty hard at around 50 - 75% amp output. Which surprised me considering the amps are only 160W TOTAL.

The shifter unit is basically running all the effects the seat unit is. It's only a 'shifter' unit because Simvibe groups pedals and wheel in one stereo output (rear) and seat and shifter in the other (front). To my knowledge, there is no way to physically select Seat and Pedals to correspond where I intend to actually mount the kickers. The engine vibes I am running are from your FXXL profile, as I have been very impressed by what you created when we were working together on my Aura setup. I have loaded that profile, kept all of the engine notes and adjusted basically everything else to suit the mini. Getting ALL frequencies out of the sub 35 range as it sounds HORRIBLE when they are activated. Also playing with dB levels of different settings to match the capabilities and strength of the mini, as I learn them.

Funnily enough, your 12 engine note settings have a combination of sub 35hz frequencies in them, but they do not pang or cause any audible distortion or bottoming out. Could be the way the actual revs interact with the range you set. I've tested nearly half the day with a game pad on this coffee table and engine hasn't been an apparent issue. It may however be the cause for the heat without me knowing. Although as I said, both kickers are running identical settings (unless there are some that are different without me knowing). I am using your base FXXL profile, muting the chassis output and using the seat and pedal output you have, adjusting those as I go. If you have specified different engine tones in each of those, then that may be the answer. I checked and couldn't see an apparent difference, however.

 

[Mr Latte]

If placing units on corners of a rig more energy is wasted, (leaks to other areas) so a user may use more volume if they have that type of installation. I know there is a past thread discussing piston pang with Mini Lfe if you search it may bring some interesting reading. Indeed you should not need max amp power as what you need is determined by the soundcard output, the input level Simvibe is set to, then the individual effects volume each effect has. Many frequencies just do not suit being overdriven on the tactile used but what suits can vary depend on the tactile that is being used.

One of the drawbacks with Simvibes method of tone generation is we do not have the same level of specific control for the amplitude of individual frequencies. From an effects creation perspective, this is one fundamental benefit creating waveforms in what SSW uses brings.

We need an AntoN does Simvibe Vs SSW showdown from user/community perspective.
Unbiased and fair comparison of what each offers and delivers in immersion. Simvibe has had 6 years and not really improved or moved on much. Zero profiles or proper documentation from SimXperience and really community downloads that offer no assurance or level of working well. So the Simxperience Marketplace idea is flawed being very much a case of hit and miss.

Personally, for my own tactile goals, I see it no longer as the primary focus of my own tactile immersion. Nobody else to my knowledge ever went about trying to make high-quality profiles for it.

I propose you work towards tuning the Mini LFE units for your upcoming build. We find a way to install them well on the VR3 and when installed. By such time I will have for you what I have been working on for more than 12 months creating/developing custom-made effects for SSW. These will bring to users quality effects that should be matchable to all levels of tactile hardware taking much of the headaches out of what Simvibe brings.

 

[anton_Chez]

I have been reading today for the rest of the time I have not been testing while driving. I have seen the threads on RD about the pang and some videos demonstrating it. When it happens it's terrible, but once you tune that out (I was able to do so using just Simvibe, increasing lowest frequencies to above 35hz) they give a huge improvement over what the Aura's gave me. I have to still test this in the actual cockpit and results may vary once they are mounted but the deep vibes you get from the mini's is a big plus. I don't feel like I am going to break them and they don't distort nearly as easily as the Aura's. Obviously the pang is an issue, but I think I can deal with that through tuning, as well as maybe modding them to not sound so bad? Your thoughts?

I very much look forward to trying those new files. Does SSW have stock files that I can play with for now to make sure I can get it to recognize my set up for when the time comes? I found it a little vague when I tried it the first time.

I do have in mind how I am going to mount these. Basically the pedals should be no worries as they dont move and have nothing underneath them, either. I should be able to mount one directly underneath, attached to the profile. The seat is a little more tricky but there are a few ways I can do it. I can't mount it underneath, obviously the platform is right there. But I can mount it either to a plate that connects in-between the seat and the platform, and have it hanging out the back slightly. It will move with the seat just like my old ones did. Another way is to mount it with the slots rather than the holes and just have it directly connected to a piece of profile that touches the seat. For this way I will need to check how much room there is for the mini to sit there, but I think the first way is better as the recommended way to mount is using the holes, not the slots.

This time next week they should be mounted and we should be fully up and running. I have isolation pads coming so I might shoot you a photo or two and see if I've used them correctly. Overall I think they'll be an improvement. I like extensions mode because there are less effects coming from a given unit, and with motion I need less of things like bumps and impacts (because the seat reacts to that already, as does the wheel to a degree) and more of engine vibes and road texture, things that the platform doesn't really provide. Less effects will give a clearer output.

I'm really surprised how well one amp powers 2 mini's. Would it be better to use one mini on each amp? I know I can't bridge them, but I have the other amp lying around and if it can take the load off the other one, might as well use it. Thoughts? I'd still only be getting around 70 - 75 watts out of the channel running each mini but at least one amp isn't running as high as it might otherwise be.

 

[anton_Chez]

I think I have enough experience in my own tuning endeavours to give a fair comparison. I already know what Simvibe needs to be better (points you made above are a start) but because there is nothing else out there for sim racers, it's sort of been left to its own devices. Adding support for a few titles is not really adding much to the package. The MotionSystems software used to power the V3 has seen significant improvements in the short time I have been using it. Improvements made from user (me and others) feedback in conjunction with detailed instructions on how to use said improvements to achieve what I felt was missing / lacking. Without some of the shenanigans that I have seen on other threads from developers of their respective software programs.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'd look forward to you doing a thread to see your new build progress. Also looking forward to others that have updates coming. I think this is a part of the community I have always enjoyed in seeing creativity or how/what others have done.

I am actually close now to having all the bits to at least let me start on my new seat/build section.
Yet my own cockpit frame, taking into account the rubber isolation, spring dampening, with other materials and steel/chrome tubing it uses will be over £2000 worth not accounting for the seat or tactile etc. Impatiently want to get stuck into it but such will continue to gradually come together as funds allow.

LFE like most common tactile going by reports users have given me in tests and combined from my own experience of owning some years ago. 40-45Hz seems the peak output for many of the smaller tactile.

The simple problem here is that, by the time we reach double this peak @80Hz bass has much less energy. I always recommend to people to do bass tests from online websites to get to learn how their unit feels with different frequencies and they better understand them.

From an effects perspective, how do we cram in multiple effects and these have their own unique feel when we are limited to at best perhaps 30Hz - 80Hz. This limited 50Hz range is very narrow but because it is the range that will feel best, many people keep using the same frequencies for different effects.

Also as I have pointed out before, setting a slider position in Simvibe for a low-high value does not mean this is the only Hz that will be used. The reason is, these are only what is termed "center values". So an effect could have 5-10Hz of fading energy each side of the center value. Without being able to monitor the frequencies in operation a user can't see exactly what Hz are being used.

*Dont think you will gain much benefit with one unit on one amp as your not currently maxing them anyways. The mini lfe is okay but you won't come close to the true potential possible. How some effects can feel using the important sub 20Hz is key to the immersion and realism the tactile may offer. Like other things, much can be spent and it depends how far or what the user wants to take things.

For me this was one of the things that intrigued me from the very beginning and I bought hardware/software to self-teach myself on it and better understand how audio actually works. No expert by any means but I can look back and say I have progressed a lot from what I knew a few years ago.

I think for anyone wanting to help improve their tactile immersion it is best to consider having the engine on its own individual channel(s). What you may find is that for many using Simvibe, the engine is one of the primary favorite effects. Yet really feeling bumps and some random road surface texture sensation does little to help improve the drivers feedback of what the car is really doing.

I believe this is one of the major differences with SSW as with its G-Force based effects and wheelslip the driver can hone their feedback to help improve their driving. When we have this, then engine becomes less the focus or we do not want the engine taking away from the sensory feedback of these "car handling" effects. Well at least thats what I find but my own tactile is quite extreme.

For the very best engines, Simvibe can be surpassed, trust me I've done probably more research into it than anyone I know and spent more than 2 months on this. SSW could further improve in engine options but in truth the best engine effects have to also mix the audio yet enhance/boost its output. Fake created tones in Simvibe are not good enough, not to my own desires anyways.

What some do not realise is that with the biggest tactile hardware, many of the community sfx created for some cars have deep down hidden low Hz bass that can be extracted with the right tools. I am talking here of very deep and powerful idle at 8Hz or the peak of an rpm limit. Characteristics of the engine embedded in the sound. When we combine this with telemetry based engine loads or rpm character (that audio tactile does not have) the experience is far greater than what was achieved with the FXXL experiments in Simvibe.

 

[anton_Chez]

I'd be willing to reduce effects if it means a more believable overall effect. I already was thinking of cutting out bumps and just running engine, and texture. No gears, nothing else. Engine is probably the most convincing of effects because it's so smooth, has a great range and doesn't feel like something knocking on your cockpit like bumps can. Bumps are hard to portray well with smaller units IMO, so I think for me, engine and enough texture to be able to sense rumble strips and maybe some of the rough areas of the road, just to get that feeling of something passing underneath you that isn't glass, would be best. Otherwise, with the mini's now I've noticed that the bumps seems to blend with the engine. But with engine, I can feel immersed because when I press the throttle (trigger on the game pad in today's case) you actually get a sense of the RPM load and the vibrations it sends at different loads. I smiled today when i noticed that with the extra power now, it feels even more believable.

Can't wait to try your files now. I have SSW recognizing my mini's so tomorrow I'll run some online frequency tests and just sus out what's up with the mini's in regards to their lowest tones before bottoming out. If we can get them using a higher frequency to portray the rough tarmac surface and rumble strips in texture (or SSW equivalent) settings and just use the rest of the available range for engine, I'd be pretty happy. It did feel messy at times with the Aura's running chassis mode with so many effects turned on but I always appreciated the engine, and the strips/rough tarmac. They felt believable. Will hit the sack now and pick it up again tomorrow.

Speak soon.