Modern and Classic Monza Released for Automobilista 2 in Latest Update

DirkW · Oct 5, 2021

dario993 said:
exactly what he said at 23:45 you can translate it:

He said no commercial game or even SIMULATOR that you can HAVE AT HOME and/or pay subscription for it (he mean iRacing for sure) is NOT ON A LEVEL OF REAL RACING, of driving real car as driving in sim on chair in your room is so much different than driving REAL LIFE in a REAL CAR
HE SAID if SIMULATOR could SIMULATE REAL WORLD for 100% we would have DIFFERENT world champions RACERS XDhe said sim racest are SPECIALISTS in them genre they train for so much HOURS DAILY and they are best and he as real racing driver has no chance againts them, and vice versa.
It take differnet character/personality to be sim racer or real racing driver, he said that

There are exceptions from the rule, I think about George Russell

DC WOLF · Oct 6, 2021

Leemz said:
Where is the BMW 2002 Turbo that was promised at the end of September???

it was not good enough to be released to the public.
But will be in a few days.
If you are able to read release notes, you should know that.

MoerasGrizzly · Oct 6, 2021

PickABetterUsername01 said:
Yea, while it's nice to have the cars as they were, it kills any form of online competition. The difference between the Porsche and the other GT1's is HUGE.

Well not really: There's plenty of ways to make GT1 races competitive, like by making everyone use the same car.

I'd say, welcome to the problem that real life motorsports have: Having to balance manufacturer competition with driver competition

PickABetterUsername01 · Oct 6, 2021

Monza 2021 GP: Slight increased width of green runoff at Lesmos 1 and 2

Damn, they actually changed it! Thanks.

Minor brake torque adjustment for all GT & Prototypes

I wonder if this will help with braking closer to the references I had in ACC.

b)b · Oct 6, 2021

Quoting Renato:

V1.2.4.2 is now live - this is the first of two complementary updates planned to be deployed this week, featuring some high priority fixes and improvements to the latest release.

V1.2.4.2 CHANGELOG

GENERAL

Updated recent Real Weather data

UI & HUD

Fixed tire temperature status widget not updating on some in-game screens
Fixed last session status being displayed on pre race leaderboard
Fixed championship round editor incorrectly altering session start hours when propagating race date changes
Fixed center column of drivetrain tab unelectable on setup editor
Fixed practice weather slot4 of in game session settings block referencing qualifying slot4

PHYSICS & AI

Minor tire tread adjustment for F-Vintages
Minor brake torque adjustment for all GT & Prototypes
AI callibration pass for F-V12, F-Vintage G1
Adjusted AI brake power & grip
Adjusted AI Grip multipliers for Monza 1991 & Modern
Adjusted AI to start passing routines sooner
Slightly increased parameter to reducing AI propensity to cut corner to avoid a crash

TRACKS

Monza 2021 GP: Slight increased width of green runoff at Lesmos 1 and 2
Monza 1971: Increased road noise on banked oval first draft; Optimized terrain shadows, new shadow dummy for banked track structures Increased grid spacing
General art updates to all Monza versions

PickABetterUsername01 · Oct 6, 2021

MoerasGrizzly said:
Well not really: There's plenty of ways to make GT1 races competitive, like by making everyone use the same car.

I'd say, welcome to the problem that real life motorsports have: Having to balance manufacturer competition with driver competition

Not really a fan of everyone using the same car. I would say, for online the cars should be balanced and leave it as it's for offline and maybe create an option to turn such balance on and off.

steelreserv · Oct 6, 2021

InfernalVortex said:
We have had this discussion before, but I respectfully disagree.

Go drive a Vintage Gen 1/2, or a F-Retro Gen 1 (the Gen 2's have more downforce, so it's not as noticeable) at Imola 72, and trying to get the car to turn into Tosa is a nightmare. It's very, very intense understeer, and then a sudden unlocking of the diff and the car rotates, even when speed is constant. The initial reluctance to turn in may or may not be the diffs, but it is not normal. No other sim that has these cars allows them to behave that way. There's no reason the front tires would have more grip during steady state, high-g cornering than they would under hard braking and corner entry, if anything it should be the opposite. Additionally, with the amount of wheel scrub that is induced in the severe initial understeer, if anything the front tires should KEEP understeering through the rest of the corner, but they don't. They suddenly grip and the car turns the way it should.

You're forced to aggressively brake pivot/turn the car to get around the understeer problem. If it was consistent through the rest of the corner, I would be more okay with it, but it's not. Since I think the tire model is pretty spot on with most other things, still think it's something with the diff not allowing the car to rotate. Again, I remember when the F-Retro cars were first released with the V1.0, and the geared diff was available and this behavior was practically non-existent with the geared differential As soon as they removed the geared differential option, the ridiculous snow plow turn in behavior that isnt replicated in any other sim returned. And yes, I tried it with the geared diff and the clutch diff back to back when they were both available. Something is wrong with the way something is modeled in the driveline.

And regarding the car in the video, that's a historic race, likely with a very, very conservative understeery setup, and they're probably not even getting the tires properly warm. It's irrelevant to the physics behavior we see in AMS2. The low downforce cars with clutch diffs fight you on corner entry rotation FAR too much, and when they do rotate, it's like the entire physics behavior of the car changes. Mid corner and apex, acceleration, and braking in AMS2 feels better than any other sim I've ever played. You really can balance the grip front and rear and it's intuitive and makes sense. It behaves like a real car. But for the clutch diff cars reliant on mechanical grip, they just do not turn in, and it's very jarring and immersion breaking the way that they dont turn in. It's almost like front end grip is connected to a timer after you lift off the throttle, even if it's only maintenance throttle. You dont get the clear, immediate analog to the coast ramps that you should. The latency as it switches from power to coast ramps is just off. I think once it actually transitions it's exactly as it should be, and it seems to switch back to the power ramps pretty quickly when you apply power. Again, this may not even be the issue, but it's what it FEELS like the issue is. It doesnt matter how fast you're going or how hard or light you're turning, the car will only turn after you have lifted off the throttle for a certain amount of time. And it ONLY applies to the clutch diff cars, and only those that lack enough aero grip to drive around it.

Spot on analysis. The differential and how it affects cornering is hitting the spot where most people I think take issue with AMS2 and might not be able to pinpoint it like this.

To understand what's going on, you have to understand the difference between locked and unlocked differential behavior in both phases, power and coast.

In regards to the mid corner "pivot" that occurs suddenly, again, spot on. Telemetry suggests when the differential unlocks during the coast phase, (which typically occurs at the end of trail braking as you progressively turn in or are in a steady state corner and add more turn in), the slip % or wheel speed difference %, whichever you want to call it, happens suddenly until it reaches its natural peak (which is turn radius dependent). Up until that unlocking, the coast ramp diff is actually fighting turn in, which comes across as US. You can measure with telemetry that this sudden unlocking adds 5-10% of slip in a nanosecond and much faster than human reaction time. To offset this effect, the player has to be ready to engage the power ASAP to lock the differential again and prevent too much yaw.

With the setups you have some influence as to when and how much the peak slip % you want, but cannot effect how the differential unlocks.

There is is some type of static friction that the differential must overcome that is at issue here. In the most egregious circumstances, the player will feel resistance resistance resistance (due to stabilizing effect of a locked coast) to turn in, and then a noticeable snap of yaw. Manageable with a bit of experience and setup knowledge, but for casual "sit and drive" racers, this is what is going on.

I am crossing my fingers that the November update and the physics improvements Renato alluded will work to refine this. Its somewhat complicated with the Madness driveline simulation as the the number of clutches, ramp angles and preload all play a part.

*note, for cars with an engine braking, some coast ramp US can be overcome by increasing this setting.

InfernalVortex · Oct 7, 2021

steelreserv said:
Spot on analysis. The differential and how it affects cornering is hitting the spot where most people I think take issue with AMS2 and might not be able to pinpoint it like this.

To understand what's going on, you have to understand the difference between locked and unlocked differential behavior in both phases, power and coast.

In regards to the mid corner "pivot" that occurs suddenly, again, spot on. Telemetry suggests when the differential unlocks during the coast phase, (which typically occurs at the end of trail braking as you progressively turn in or are in a steady state corner and add more turn in), the slip % or wheel speed difference %, whichever you want to call it, happens suddenly until it reaches its natural peak (which is turn radius dependent). Up until that unlocking, the coast ramp diff is actually fighting turn in, which comes across as US. You can measure with telemetry that this sudden unlocking adds 5-10% of slip in a nanosecond and much faster than human reaction time. To offset this effect, the player has to be ready to engage the power ASAP to lock the differential again and prevent too much yaw.

With the setups you have some influence as to when and how much the peak slip % you want, but cannot effect how the differential unlocks.

There is is some type of static friction that the differential must overcome that is at issue here. In the most egregious circumstances, the player will feel resistance resistance resistance (due to stabilizing effect of a locked coast) to turn in, and then a noticeable snap of yaw. Manageable with a bit of experience and setup knowledge, but for casual "sit and drive" racers, this is what is going on.

I am crossing my fingers that the November update and the physics improvements Renato alluded will work to refine this. Its somewhat complicated with the Madness driveline simulation as the the number of clutches, ramp angles and preload all play a part.

*note, for cars with an engine braking, some coast ramp US can be overcome by increasing this setting.

I heard your podcast where you discussed the diff issue being traced to a bearing modelling discrepancy. But I was under the impression that had been addressed and they were considering the differentials "correct" now. Im glad to hear it's not considered a solved problem that is old news, because to me it is the single biggest issue in the game. I had never considered that what other people talk about when they say the cars are "pivoty" was their way of discussing the diff problem, but that's an interesting take for sure.

CrimsonEminence · Oct 7, 2021

InfernalVortex said:
I heard your podcast where you discussed the diff issue being traced to a bearing modelling discrepancy. But I was under the impression that had been addressed and they were considering the differentials "correct" now. Im glad to hear it's not considered a solved problem that is old news, because to me it is the single biggest issue in the game. I had never considered that what other people talk about when they say the cars are "pivoty" was their way of discussing the diff problem, but that's an interesting take for sure.

It is in fact adressed for a majority of cars in AMS2 and there is no LSD in the game anymore, that doesn't do anything at all (the diff model is actually working). But there are still car types that will probably need another look for sure because they can still be odd (unnecessary high lock for the most part, some diff setups still await some fine tuning, actually needing more lock now, etc.). Renato SImioni also confirmed some cars to be still wonky for sure, in the interview.

Fortunately AMS2 isn't even nearly at the end of its lifecycle yet. But you can't do big revisions all the time without letting things settle in a bit more, to understand things better and there is also a game around the sim, that needs care.

steelreserv · Oct 7, 2021

InfernalVortex said:
I heard your podcast where you discussed the diff issue being traced to a bearing modelling discrepancy. But I was under the impression that had been addressed and they were considering the differentials "correct" now. Im glad to hear it's not considered a solved problem that is old news, because to me it is the single biggest issue in the game. I had never considered that what other people talk about when they say the cars are "pivoty" was their way of discussing the diff problem, but that's an interesting take for sure.

My take was Renato was using the example of wheel bearing friction to describe the complexity and learning process involved with the driveline model development, not necessarily the differential, but as we know the driveline affects the diff, as do the tires.

And as Crimson suggests, there are many cars in which the diff behaves just fine. I am looking at some readouts right now for the 720s and the coast ramp is not unlocking sharply and to not as great of a degree most of the time with a custom setup, whereas the default diff does, more often, but still not that much. The M1 procar, the custom setup unlocks moderately sharply under coast and power. The Corvette C3R, sharply. And those are examples of a fully adjustable diff, a car with just plate settings, and a fixed non-adjustable lsd. So it depends on the car and the particular corner you are looking at.

On a side note, the telemetry suggests the diffs are re-locking more smoothly though as well, as the re-engagement of the clutches occurs twice to three times slower than the diff takes to unlock.

Another complicating factor is the misinterpretation of a locked coast ramp doing its job as a sign of a flaw in the car, when its not. If you read many a workflow setup charts available online, to combat US mid corner, people are suggested to alter the arbs or do suspension changes to reduce US. This muddies the waters because in this case the person would be upsetting the balance of the car to favor OS just to combat a differential being locked under coast. The car would be what I like to call "fighting itself". The fallout from that would be an exaggerated pivot when the diff actually does unlock and the OS suspension balance of the car comes into play. As the coast unlocks, there would be even more rotational forces, further increasing yaw.

That being said, its important to stress that the reason why lsds were developed for racing applications was to provide the benefits of a locked differential which are power delivery and cornering stability, but also allow unlocking or opening to occur only when you need it.

Modern and Classic Monza Released for Automobilista 2 in Latest Update

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DirkW

DC WOLF

MoerasGrizzly

PickABetterUsername01

b)b

PickABetterUsername01

steelreserv

InfernalVortex

CrimsonEminence

steelreserv

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