rFactor 2 | Early Access Look at the New BTCC Content

Amanda · May 10, 2022

v4v474 said:
It's how ISI created the "package system" which is at the base of rF2, so it's not something that can be changed, certainly not from one day to the other.

But surely could be changed in the 6 years that S397 have been in charge?

v4v474 said:
In any case, notwithstanding the fact that there are cheaper games, until the introduction of the BMW M4 GT3, you could buy ALL GT3 cars for €13,00 during Steam sales (50% discount), which is basically the price of a single car for iRacing.

The main problem is that S397 don't do regional pricing. The GT3 pack alone is basically 40 USD. Not only that, the whole store/purchase system is horrible, if you buy a few GT3 cars from older packs or singles, you won't get a discount when buying the entire pack. You'll be literally buying quite a lot of the cars twice (or even thrice) unless you have a new account and buy this pack right now. And when a newer pack comes by (say, with 5 additional cars) and this one phases out, you'll literally buy 13 cars again.

And people still defend this system.

v4v474 · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
But surely could be changed in the 6 years that S397 have been in charge?

The main problem is that S397 don't do regional pricing. The GT3 pack alone is basically 40 USD. Not only that, the whole store/purchase system is horrible, if you buy a few GT3 cars from older packs or singles, you won't get a discount when buying the entire pack. You'll be literally buying quite a lot of the cars twice (or even thrice) unless you have a new account and buy this pack right now. And when a newer pack comes by (say, with 5 additional cars) and this one phases out, you'll literally buy 13 cars again.

And people still defend this system.

The lack of regional pricing and, as well, lack of discount on the Shop if you buy DLC with pre-existing items is - I was told - a Steam issue.
Not sure how accurate.
As for S397 could have changed the package system: I was told that it's an integrant part of the code's core and absolutely not easy to change.
This is hearsay, but as S397 themselves acknowledge that this system causes issues with server access, I don't think it was due to lack of will, but lack of means to do it (we are talking about - surely - thousands of man hours).

tr1v1um · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
He does have a point, though. Surely nobody's forcing anyone to buy rF2 content...... except if you want to join an official rF2 practice server, then you must own all tracks/cars that will be driven in the future: https://steamcommunity.com/app/365960/discussions/0/3175603565754661108/

"Welp, our official server is now at Indianapolis with Indy cars.... but let's force everyone who wants to join the current race to buy all the content we have planned for this server for the next 2 months".

And that is on top of the super high prices of their DLC.

Not even iRacing is that abusive.

To me, everyone should model themselves after Raceroom: no matter how many cars there will be in the server, you only need one car (the car you'll be driving) and the track.
But Kunos has always been kind to their customers as well, always releasing good quality content for cheap. For the price of one rF2 car you used to get 5 cars and 1 track in AC, or 5 cars now in ACC.

I allways lough my a$$ of when I read the phrase "forced". Ofcourse you need to own the content to join the server because that's how it's set up within rF2 so either you accept it or move on. If it is a financial issue for anyone then he or she should reprioritize a few other things in life. A set of strings for my guitar wich by itself costs around 1.2k costs around 10 Euro while other people enjoy their Harley Benton and a monthly sub for iRacing instead.

Every goddamn game has a different structure when it comes to that, none is perfect. In AC you have to own all the content that is currently in use, in iRacing you need the car and track plus ten Euro every month. No idea how people think that iRacing is cheaper when you have to spent 120 Euro a year just to be able to use your expensive tracks and cars. The Q2 bundle costs the same amount like 1 car and 1 track in iRacing, just to put that into perspective and there is no sub. Raceroom is similar to iRacing without the monthly sub, but you have micro transactions for car skins. And allmost everything that is good in those games costs money, even a good amount. ACC is very cheap, but people easily forget that AC and ACC aren't the benchmark and who in gods name want to drive modern, bopped GT cars till the end of their life, seriously? Kunos can set the price that low because their publisher has a much bigger market share and AC was an exceptional success wich just made it possible to offer the UE for AC and set the price point to an insanely low point that noone else will be able to beat. AC will be the best rooky sim for years to come with the best content/price ratio.

Anyway, rF2 isn't cheap, propably never will be and nobody claimed it, but you don't have micro transactions and access to a ton of very decent thrid party content from skins, to cars, tracks or tools that you don't find in other products. Again, it's all relative. The entry point to get racing in the CS system with free content is very low for example so if you want to get going, rF2 is actually very cheap and you have much more content than anyone will ever be able to master. I allready explained it, but people need to get it into their head that you don't start with rF2 and get this bundle. The whole bundle is for enthusiasts who know that they will get good use out of it. For the other guys there are other products and upcomming sales, wich just shows that we have real 1st world problems. You also don't need to horde content. I don't care for FE, so I never purchased that content within rF2. Did't scratch me one bit ...

tr1v1um · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
But surely could be changed in the 6 years that S397 have been in charge?

The main problem is that S397 don't do regional pricing. The GT3 pack alone is basically 40 USD. Not only that, the whole store/purchase system is horrible, if you buy a few GT3 cars from older packs or singles, you won't get a discount when buying the entire pack. You'll be literally buying quite a lot of the cars twice (or even thrice) unless you have a new account and buy this pack right now. And when a newer pack comes by (say, with 5 additional cars) and this one phases out, you'll literally buy 13 cars again.

And people still defend this system.

Who cares how often they have an item in their virutal Steam inventory? Seriously. Every item appears only once. You can just drive one car at the same time anyway

. Do the math and buy the content accordingly. I had one car that was in a bundle, still got the bundle wich was still much cheaper in a sale. Easy peasy, no rocket science. Some people make it harder than it actually is. And you get 13 cars for 40 USD, wich makes it 3 Euro per car. Still wanna make the iRacing comparison?

Amanda · May 10, 2022

tr1v1um said:
I allways lough my a$$ of when I read the phrase "forced". Ofcourse you need to own the content to join the server because that's how it's set up within rF2 so either you accept it or move on

I did move on, so did most sim racers, which is why rF2's player count is always so low.
I don't mind paying for the current content on the current track/car combo, but paying for months in advance is something I've only seen rF2 fans praising. If the server is now using Monza+GT3, why would I need to buy content that will be used months ahead? It doesn't make sense, no matter how you see it. It's like buying tickets to see a band/game that's playing today and the organizers stopping you from entering the current concert and saying "you need to buy tickets for their whole tour" even though you only want to see one game/concert.

tr1v1um said:
If it is a financial issue for anyone then he or she should reprioritize a few other things in life.

It's not a financial issue for me, but pretty much all devs on Steam do regional pricing because they realize how different countries have different currencies and that affects what they can and can't enjoy if the prices aren't adjusted.

tr1v1um said:
Every goddamn game has a different structure when it comes to that, none is perfect. In AC you have to own all the content that is currently in use

Not sure how that is true. You need only the "pack" in which the track/cars are, and there are many servers (fully populated, mind you

) specifically for the "DreamPack", or "JapanesePack". Either way, a pack with 6 cars and the Nordschleife is cheaper than a single GT3 car on rF2.

tr1v1um said:
ACC is very cheap, but people easily forget that AC and ACC aren't the benchmark and who in gods name want to drive modern, bopped GT cars till the end of their life, seriously?

Apparently 3.9k on ACC + 7.3k on AC.
And 983 on rF2.

Amanda · May 10, 2022

tr1v1um said:
Who cares how often they have an item in their virutal Steam inventory? Seriously. Every item appears only once. You can just drive one car at the same time anyway

It's not just about how many times it appears in your inventory, it's about literally paying for it twice (or more).

I bought the first GT3 Pack that came in 2017, can't even remember it's name. Then they released more GT3 cars some years later, and in order to not buy each one of the new cars individually I bought whatever the newest GT3 Pack was (the old one wasn't even listed anymore). I already had like 4-5 cars that were in the first GT3 pack and were also included in the new pack, yet I didn't get any discount for them. Effectively, I paid for the 4-5 cars twice.

I see some rFactor 2 fans really don't care about paying twice for the same things. Imagine all the guitar strings you could buy if S397 had an actually fair purchasing scheme

And it's not about supporting your favorite dev. It's about them not charging for you again for content you already have. It's not fair, and is the reason I stopped purchasing rF2 content (along with the high prices on their DLC).

ziogzzz · May 11, 2022

Ok stop telling whoose diick is bigger today i bought this pack even did not fekt quit good ffb on audi gt3 car on porsche was a blast, on merc it was ok i’m finishing with rf2, but man or boy just listen to me ! I’m racer and now race on iR mostly, this btcc , no R3e no iR is taking so much like this dlc, 25-30 eur depending on package worth every, every, every penny 30 eur?

yep i was thinking it is not worth just drive those amazing cars and trackc, God of sim racing is getting down

on you ! But if you put modedded track you will know how poop rf2 can be .. btw greatest expierence of all times with BTCC! No other words, fantastic, i never hotlaped, from 21-till 3.40 in the morning i race and hotlape wtf?!!! 10/10 Amigozs is giving, must have this DLC

MadDriver11 · May 11, 2022

v4v474 said:
It's how ISI created the "package system" which is at the base of rF2, so it's not something that can be changed, certainly not from one day to the other.

10 years isn't exactly from one day to another...

MadDriver11 · May 11, 2022

Amanda said:
Temperature does have significance in ACC. Aris has explained this multiple times. To summarize: you can't really control the temperature of the tire while racing normally (unless you over/underdrive on purpose, of course). What you can have full control is the pressure, and, well, it matters a lot because that's the primary driver of the contact patch you'll have, which will contribute to temps (a bit) and lap times.
And temperature has a very negative impact on the car's handling when out of range.

What is factually wrong here is that there is no such static range of pressures in real life. The optimal pressure varies significantly based on downforce, track temperature, and car with its weight split between axles. That is the first point.
Secondly, it is not true you have no control over tires temps: your suspensions geometry and stiffness settings, even brake ducts influence the tire temps.
The problem in ACC however is not only that tire temps have weak to no dependency on these variables but rather that what matters for the car to perform well is 95% matching that silly static value of hot pressure, while the whole engineering world knows that temperatures are the driver for grip. I don't care what Aris says, he is here to sell his product.

Amanda said:
For the brake inputs I've seen, ACC is really on point. I brake in ACC the same amount/duration as in rFactor 1 and it's children (Race07, GTR2, RaceRoom). It's in rF2 that braking is weird, you can brake a LOT later than I've seen real cars braking, it's like braking on steroids.

I'm sure a lot of people like that braking style because it makes it straightforward to perform well, but it is factually not the way drivers brake and from vehicle dynamics makes no sense to sit heavily on the ABS as that would just generate a lot of understeer/wash out of the corner as well as a lot of tire temps and wear. Morad said it very clearly: we don't smash the brakes that way in real life, we need to be far more gentle and there is a very good vehicle dynamics based reason.

Amanda said:
I believe you meant a negative rake.

Yes apologies. No GT car on earth uses the flat bottom as an uplifting device. Especially being a relatively less "winged" car than a formula. Unless they want to try pulling Webber loop somewhere. Those numbers in the manual come from the fact that stewards make measurements on points that are at different heights above the ground. That is not the same as saying that the car is raked upwards. By the way, the case I saw on a notorious streamer on twitch was related to the Lambo (not the only car I saw though) which has lower front values than rears in all Kunos provided settings and track was Monza. But it happens on more cars.

gianlucaP · May 11, 2022

MadDriver11 · May 11, 2022

gianlucaP said:
The guys from Kunos, ISI and S397 know their stuff. The default setups are done consulting racing drivers. When something feels weird or off could be simply because of the track characteristics or because the sim racer don't know that he has to change driving style according to the car.

The thing is all developers know their stuff and have their racers in the "pocket". RF2 has their own, ACC has Perel, iracing has Morad and Toni Kanaan just to make two names.
The problem is they often race in the same cars but endorse different sims with completely different driving styles and physics and give completely different judgements on them.
So out of the three examples, one is right and the others must be liars. Or more likely, the drivers endorse each their sims for different reasons and work within the work frame and limitations of physics each sim has. So they give an input, but then developers do what they can with the engine and physics they have.
Which means the inherent limits or flaws that each architecture has, will remain there and the testimonials are just that: (paid?) marketing testimonials, not proof of physics validity.

gianlucaP · May 11, 2022

wolftree · May 11, 2022

gianlucaP said:
A thing is a pro driver associated with a certain racing sim, and used to advertise it. Another thing is a pro driver who's asked to try the game and give advises on the cars in development.
Kunos had their HQ in Vallelunga, it's easy to imagine that during the development of the game and after the release, they let dozens of pro drivers try it and collected those feedbacks.

Yes and Daniel Morad was asked to try ACC and he didn't find it realistic. Furthermore, the ACC tyre model has changed multiple times, every time we heard how it was supposedly the "most realistic tyre model ever", and it felt totally different from the past models. All those iterations that feel totally different from each other can't possibly all have been realistic.

Renato Simioni stated before that race driver feedback is pretty random and not always that useful. These guys have their own preferences and ideas about driving, and most of them are not engineers or have much of a clue about race car physics.

MadDriver11 · May 11, 2022

gianlucaP said:
Kunos had their HQ in Vallelunga, it's easy to imagine that during the development of the game and after the release, they let dozens of pro drivers try it and collected those feedbacks.

All developers have drivers test their stuff. Reiza had even Fittipaldi, Kanaan and other SCB racers.
Kunos has surely had drivers visit their facilities as well.
Iracing also has Morad, Kanaan, Spengler etc.
However any inputs they give can only be implemented within the frame of the technical capabilities of the sim.
For example: if a sim has a very limited or absent thermal model for the tires, drivers can give the inputs they want, the capabilities to implement them in a proper way will always be as good as the models the sim has.
That is why one thing is the marketing bubble of showing that xyz driver supports this or that sim and another thing is what that sim can actually achieve factually with the capabilities it has.

Patrik Marek · May 11, 2022

RichardHessels said:
Any idea what the cost of making a brand new engine is?
Why do you think studio's use Unreal Engine or Unity?

it depends if you are starting fully from scratch or not, plus nobody is stopping them from using unreal as well
all I'm saying there is a reason why - despite it might be the best / most realistic sim out there , which might not be general consensus , there is a reason why numbers of their customers is one of the smallest, and just new content won't change that , because the user experience has been almost same in the years ,

one noticeable improvement engine side is the faster loading times, but that's about it

Shannon Flynn · May 11, 2022

All you bickering inspired me to write an angry new song over the weekend.
Caution, explicit.

https://soundcloud.com/shannonflynn-1%2Farguing-on-the-internet

As far as the new content goes, I haven't yet purchased it because I have more money going out than coming in these days. I'm really itching to try it but probably going to have to wait for a sale or a change in my finances. The DLC is just a LITTLE too spendy for me.

davehenrie · May 11, 2022

Shannon Flynn said:
All you bickering inspired me to write an angry new song over the weekend.
Caution, explicit.

https://soundcloud.com/shannonflynn-1%2Farguing-on-the-internet

As far as the new content goes, I haven't yet purchased it because I have more money going out than coming in these days. I'm really itching to try it but probably going to have to wait for a sale or a change in my finances. The DLC is just a LITTLE too spendy for me.

That is not an argument, that is a provocative statement. Down the hall please.....

FredBassett · May 14, 2022

gianlucaP said:
Console games are designed with a controller in mind, tailored for a guy who's sitting on a sofa and doesn't want to use a damn mouse and keyboard to navigate an interface. And there is more and more people who play the Steam games in the same way.

Just going to show this. I like to sit in my comfy chair and game on PC like Steam etc. This is the best ever. It is so comfortable and as quick as using a keyboard and mouse on a desk https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-Wireless-Mechanical-Keyboard-Lapboard/dp/B078233TKB

rFactor 2 | Early Access Look at the New BTCC Content

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