2015 Formula One Malaysian Grand Prix

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Well I'm sorry but you logic is in my view badly flawed.
1) You are defending Vettel but saying its a team sport and its the team that wins not Vettel and even if he is the worst driver that RedBull is a deserving winner. Doesn't really strengthen your support of this particular driver now does it?

2) The Usain Bolt anology is a very poor one as in Sprinting like swimming it is PURELY the athletes performance. No engine, chassis, wind tunnel, engineeers in the pits. No Team behind him as you so well argue that creates the peformance on the day-Just him. So Usain Bolts performance is entirely down to his intrinsic athletic ability. No one can say he didnt deserve to win as it was just him.
An F1 drivers performance relys heavily on things outside his control. Otherwise Hulkenberg for example would podium most weeks.

So you freely use the word objective, when Vettel wins something he deserves it and its objective. When he is beaten as he was in 2014 it (19 races), objectively outraced and outpointed over a whole season by a comparative rookie somehow doesn't count due to external factors, his mood, his wife, his motivation, car doesnt suit him as much etc.

You appear to fail to see or understand the importance of the favourable treatment Vettel always got in RedBull.
For example in Silverstone he broke his brand new front wing. One of two they had there. Solution, they took the one from Webbers car and put it on Vettels. This was the weekend of the "not bad for a #2 driver" comment after Webber won.
Next example. In Turkey in 2010 when Vettel made a foolish attempt at a pass on Webber and a colision resulted (the one where he made the Cuckoo twirly finger sign), Horner embarrased himself by some waffle about "Seb had a slightly better fuel margin"
Next eaxample: Multimap 21. Vettel ignores team orders after Webber had managed to be ahead of him on track in the final stint in Sepang 2014 after a good tyre call early in the race.
My point you ask. Vettel gets the best treatment, the best equipment, the best support in RedBull. Ricciardo arrives, knows almost no one, has no special treatment, new to the car and beats him.
Not one race, beats him over the whole season. Out races him over a whole season, out drives him. In China Vettel again ignored team orders "tough luck" was what he said when Red Bull asked him to let Daniel through. 2 laps later Daniel passed him anyway. Monza he bluffed him and got a pass.
Vettels entrenched position in the team, technically, politically, financially in my view was probably worth 30-50 points to him. Daniel beat him anyway.
Considering all the foregoing it was a more resounding thrashing than the points table indicates.

In F1 it is often said the first person you have to beat is your team mate.
In 2014 Ricciardo proved he was faster. Objectively, subjectively it was by an even greater margin.

Hows that for logic and objectivity?

It's going to be a long year for you David, if you think Vettel is not heads and shoulders above 95% of the F1 crop. I don't care *what* kind of car you drive in F1 -- winning the WDC 4x in a team everyone mocked when they entered F1 is no easy task and Ricciardo having a "good year" against a frustrated Vettel, in the team that Vettel built (Newey's not looking like a genius these days, eh?) does not a hero make. The same can be said for Kimi vs. Alonso. Can any of the Kimi haters now pretend that he is inferior to Alonso, using least year's "stats" (which are meaningless when trying to prove an argument, thus, not admitted, in most court Court cases) since Alonso will likely score no points this year and (but for some bad fortune) Kimi would be 2nd or 3rd in the WDC this year after two races?

But that''s not why I defend Vettel. He brings "life" to a team, instead of dragging it down and demanding that they cater to him. He is genuinely not "out to get" his teammate, even though he can, and usually does. He's just "out to get" the stupid "team order" concept that only infests F1. If Massa had the whole ".....is faster than you" scenario to play over he'd (....wait...he did...last year. Huh? Wonder how that worked out for him?) have taken a dramatic turn in confidence. I feel as sorry for him as I do Button...a great driver and nice guy languishing behind Mr. Almighty for the rest of his days. When you scratch Alonso, you get a prima donna.

The sad fact is, F1 is a very poor measure of a drivers' ability for several reasons -- too many to go into but I think we all know what they are. Even team to team comparisons are subject to intense doubt. For instance, Massa is a prime example of getting the short stick, and has said so on many occasions. You cite Webber as another example, yet reverse course when comparing Red Bull's divers last year. Where is Ricciardo now? Fact is, last year was probably the *worst* year to make driver comparisons considering what a hack job the FIA did on the sport. Ferrari is revitalized, but it *can't* be because Fernando left...no...never...that's sacrilege. Well, I think it is, at least partly...and said so long before the season started. The other part is because Ferrari have a much more focused, less selfish, more talented, and better character than Alonso named Vettel, that for the life of me, I can't figure out why such visceral criticism is generated against him.

The part of the press conference that stuck me most about Vettel was not the part where he ripped Nico a new ass*ole, but the part where he talked about wishing that Kimi was right up there with him and that, but for some bad luck, he would be. And you could tell it was genuine. Then, Nico gave this look of incredulity. Right there, most accurate judges of human character knew who the better man was. I have no love for Hamilton, but dealing with Mr. Rosberg, who did absolutely nothing (and was even outraced by Schumacher on many occasions) before another silver platter was handed to him (as had been done his whole life) must be a nightmare.

So who was the best driver this past weekend? Juan Pablo Montoya...at 39. In the same heat and humidity, without power steering, on a bumpy concrete bordered street course, in a car that is getting much closer to F1 speed without the F1 cost. Drivers like him and Kimi drive because they love driving. Drivers like Alonso and Rosberg drive because they love the fame, adulation, and money.
 
Well I'm sorry but you logic is in my view badly flawed.
~snip~
Hows that for logic and objectivity?

Pardon me cutting the post, but just wanted comment on it without creating a huge wall. In my opinion, comparing drivers by one season is improper, even while they may be on the same team with supposedly the same car - which in itself can be untrue (i.e. Ferrari last year - yet no one is saying Raikkonen is a terrible driver compared to Alonso). Ricciardo had nothing to lose last season, and Vettel was obviously down due to the Red Bull under-performing the majority of the season. There are too many other factors to solely base it off one season, especially a down season for the team. Even this year has proven that Vettel had reason to be concerned over the car's performance. Because while Ricciardo did amazingly last season, I doubt anyone would honestly try to make the argument that he's a superior driver to Vettel. One season is not nearly enough to judge these drives, especially at this point where performance can be so sporadic due to the new regulations (I say new even though they're over a year old now, but obviously teams are having a hard time adjusting).

Another thing I'd point out is that while Red Bull did obviously favor Vettel at times, I'd argue he earned it with his championships.
 
@Shane Butler and previously argued by @David O'Reilly i think @RoMaN14 just made one very simple very fast and good comparison of how they argue about Vettel these past years. The legs of Usain Bolt are not what car is in F1 of course. Like Shane says thats embodied and its very funny talking for it right now, but i think you missed the point Roman wanted to make, and he made good one. It's the whole package and you cannot say it's the car or this or that. You would say that (its the car) when someone comes and out of nowhere wins and you are amazed? How the hell that happened? Well his car happened! That's how! And you have that talk...

Vettel came around 07 and won points in 8 finishers system! He won in Monza on rain with f*cking Toro Roso, from pole, not by accident but from pole leading every single lap of that race. At that point and being so young i sensed how special he was and he is indeed! And many are not paying attention to it because, you know in 09 he did not fight for Championship but they were still out there racing you know ... and do you know out of Webber and Vettel who was better? Vettel brought 1st pole and victory to them and later first WDC and CC, and adding another 3 in row. Are you aware of how extreme that is??? People on Vettel and Webber only talk from 2010 onwards. Have you erased 2009 or it was not important because Vettel did not won a championship?

It seems people are criticizing him only on being successful. Out of all statistical comparisons between him and his idol Schumi, i think the way people criticizing Vettel just like they were Schumi (for all i know & experienced) is the best comparison and proof that they are pretty much alike! The way once i was debating for Schumi and all those saying it was the car, now i am in the same boots, with different marque, named Vettel this time.

Now back to David.
David i read your text and you seem to be not very well aware of how things were actually ...
Case with Turkish GP? Better fuel or what not? Vettel was always better at it, he Horner might have said anything but doesn't mean one car was on RedBull fuel the other was on Zastava fuel. Vettel using it just was better. But for that case its not hard to be confused you dont know the fuel using rates, British GP is the opposite!
Do you know what happened? No. RBR had 3 wings out of which 1 was update of the previous 2 but they didnt know how it will work. Webber took the updated wing and tested it but he didnt like it and asked to be removed. When Vettel crashed his that meant only 1 is available and he got the updated one and Webber did not.
What happened is that Webber was right! As experienced in that time, he saw that the updated wing was worse and by using it the old one unlike Seb, he won that race EVEN AFTER his team asked of him not to pass Vettel (something which Vettel will remember and strike back in Malaysia). How is that a status of no.1 driver now you explain to me?
Ill tell you what is the case out of pure mental state. Webber was that much frustrated with Vettel that he asked for whatever he could just to beat Vettel but he couldn't Vettel was better. What that means literally is, not that he needed that wing but he used it so he could have a base on which he would cry if he lost. Even though, i repeat even though he was 100% aware that he got the better one! But people who are not part of the team don't know that. 21 Century. Media/Internet. Webber is the Hero!!!! He knew old one was better and was crying out loud in the media of why Vettel got it and ... AND much more importantly I NEVER EVER READ ANYWHERE OF VETTEL ARGUING OR REPLYING. But okay, again Vettel is the one who cries!!!!

Where is the logic? NOWHERE.

Ricciardo you say beaten everywhere Vettel. Now i start to wonder of, have you ever watched F1 last year? Ricciardo for the 1st time has beaten Vettel IN CHINA. In Malaysia it was pure pace of Vettel that he finished in front Ricciardo who nevertheless of his problems he wouldnt have made a change even if he continued. In Australia Vettel had problems. In Monaco he was far ahead he had problems. In Spa he challenged right away on the start Hamilton but later had problems and he admitted it he couldnt keep up with Ricciardo. In Canada he congratulated Ricciardo right away not making a fuss about it. How that happened? HE KNEW it wasnt up to him but something was wrong with that car. And he was at peace!
Vettel is the only driver to have started 3 times from the front row. Not Ricciardo but Vettel.
In Hungary where Ricciardo drove like Giles Villeneuve against Rene Arnoux, Vettel could have won very easily if he was in the right place in the right time. But he wasnt because he was so far ahead that Ricciardo would had needed binoculars to spot him! And, IT WAS RAINING.
When it was raining, you go back to Malaysia. Are you aware of the pure fact that Vettel was amazingly only +0.054 to Hamilton pole time with a car nearly 1.5sec faster per lap at the time? Are you aware of the fact that Ricciardo tried but couldn't match the speed of Vettel in Monza in 2 qualifying laps where Vettel got the better out of only one single run in the session? Vettel in a one single lap would, if you say Ricciardo trashed Vettel, i'd say he would wipe the floor with him day and night....every time they meet and are problem free... (its just the same magnitude of how you present Ricciardo season over Vettel) [Statistical info: Ricciardo was only 71 points ahead of Vettel with only 3 wins making it 75 which means even without victory Vettel in other races, even that he had three times more problems than Ricciardo, stole 4 points + a race he could have won it, Hungary where SC was deployed and changed everything] Are you still that much sure of Ricciardo beating Vettel if Vettel had just, slightly slightly better, reliable car? Not better, but better to his likes.

However i totally agree with you on the matter that you mentioned of how when he loses we make it look like it this or that and when he wins is up to him. Even though Ferrari had said this year "if Vettel is slow its not him but our car" ... is a solid ground on which you can say the same for 2014 Vettel season, but i wont go that far...even though i am Vettel fan. AND I said it twice by now that Ricciardo was better because he was. Thats reality. We all saw it. But its also very important of WHY and HOW.
He was the best driver of the season. The wonderkid. The epic new discovered racer. Vettel was against him. Not Alonso, not Hamilton not Kimi not Button and what happened? Vettel in share pace was faster. You cannot deny that.

About the car, why and how? Ricciardo, he came from shitty ToroRoso and Vettel had to adapt on a much much slower and car not reliable on the technology he used it the year before. Tyres? He was killing them. In Monza just to remind you Vettel was running 5th at the time and Ricciardo was running 12. How on Earth with new tyres he suddenly caught Vettel and passed him so easily for 5th place? I really think they have perhaps put some more powerful engine on his side i am almost but sure of it no matter how insane that sounds. If not that then why Vettel didnt had similar strategy?

The way you say Ricciardo beat Vettel is 100% like he is god and he is not. The sole domination over Vettel was very simple and i am 200% that it would have been the total opposite in the next year if Vettel stayed. And this is as much i am going to say on this matter. This is thread for Malaysia
 
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David, you say that my logic is flawed and then progress to compare 2 drivers in the specific year which suits your needs. Yes, it may be a long year for you. Again, I ask you: "Do you think Ricciardo somehow deserves 5 WDCs or that Seb didn't win his 4 by merit?"

And did people seriously say that I was implying F1 is intrinsically physical? Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I'm not even going to reply to that. At least @Dux got it. :thumbsup:

Anyway, I would suggest that anyone who still wishes to whine about drivers and cars to either invent a device measuring a driver's ability, or watch NASCAR. Seriously, you'll love it. Equal cars, no innovation, no science, the lead changes 3 times every lap. You'll love it. :)
 
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[EDIT] @Qazdar Karim there isn't anything optimistic :) it's just the way it is and his dream come true. The video is not about him being Schumi but about following his dream and passion that was passed from Schumi onto him.
 
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turning left for a lot of laps, we'll love it!!

Well, if you hate ovals (like I do), then there's IndyCar, which I believe has got 50% "proper" tracks, and many other championships with equal cars.

And there you won't have to worry about the most ingenious car not being driven by the best driver, because there won't be any ingenious cars involved! Problem solved.
 
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