3 ideas opened for discussion.

[azaralamouri]

1- I sometimes send emails to software devs asking them if they can bring us some real numbers and experiences from what real racing teams have, for example, I expected real teams to make their testing for the best electronics values on a simulator, to save fuel and time, another example, is about bringing tire wear data from tire manufacturers, a third example (about hardware this time), is to bring that the rig makers bring the real dimensions for real race cars (or why not? Road cars and even trucks for truck simulators) cockpits so that they can give you a mark on the adjustable rig so that you can set your rig dimensions to sit exactly like those of a road car or a F1 car and so on. I'm not kidding, I go that far, I emailed the V-rig maker about it.

Now a new idea came to my mind that is same as silly as those previous ones. Yesterday I was driving a luxury car while having my (wet) day dreams about how better the FFB in 80s and 90s cars was. The reason (and I'm not an expert) is that newer car use technologies like drive-by-wire and electronic assists. With other words they have fake forces to the wheel, FFB. And now the idea: Can sim developers get the software, applications and the values that car makers use (collaboration) to create FFB?


2- Off course others have already thought about this (and about the other ideas), but also yesterday I jumped on the brake pedal so hard and had that unpleasant feeling of the ABS kicking in.

The idea is: FFB on the shifter and pedals, Fanatec V3's alerady have rumble motors, but my idea is that those motors can be much more violent and low frequency. An ABS brake pedal pumps the pedal like 1 cm up and down and it only does that like once or twise every second (not 60hz). Also the clutch, remember how frustrated you get with the (broken) manual shifting model in iR or R3E punishes you by giving gearbox damage while it allowed you to shift and it's not your fault? If you had a small motor on your shifter that hits hard (besides a sound effect of metal hitting metal), you will then understand that you tried to engage the gear too quickly and back off it quickly.

3- G-force vests: Totally different topic: but I saw yesterday some videos about haptic feedback vests, vests that have tension and vibrations on different places on your body. And away from the resistance I usually get when I mention motion feedback and when I speak about how it is equally important to the wheel force feed back. (And here I can remind you guys that every and each real racing driver who jumped into simulators for the first time had the same first complaint about what's missing in sims compared to real driving: "the lack of g-force ques").
Away from pessimism, the idea is: Can these haptic vests be something for sim racing? To complement motion sims, seat movers, bass shakers, tension belts and g-seats in making you feel some g-force ques?

 

[Elaphe]

Before that I think it's more urgent to have a connection between the pedals (specifically the clutch) and the gear lever, with a software that supports it and is implemented as a stardard in all simulators. Otherwise, H shifting with clutch will never be properly simulated.

 

[wingert]

Can these haptic vests be something for sim racing? To complement motion sims, seat movers, bass shakers, tension belts and g-seats in making you feel some g-force ques?

No, g-force is a dynamical interaction between driver and chassis (car), that the driver reacts normally in the opposite direction of the car.
Imo, a static system can never simulate that in a permanent way.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Before that I think it's more urgent to have a connection between the pedals (specifically the clutch) and the gear lever, with a software that supports it and is implemented as a stardard in all simulators. Otherwise, H shifting with clutch will never be properly simulated.

Any time now... say those of use patiently waiting for ProSim to release their hydraulic lockout for the H pattern shifter for the last year or two.

 

[azaralamouri]

Before that I think it's more urgent to have a connection between the pedals (specifically the clutch) and the gear lever, with a software that supports it and is implemented as a stardard in all simulators. Otherwise, H shifting with clutch will never be properly simulated.

Who is expected to implement this first?

Any physics aspect Konus wants to implement, they succeed in doing it (a few examples the 5 points tire model, the push/ pull aero model, rain grip line and the different mechanisms the TC works according to IRL cars), if Konus did AC2 as a comprehensive sim like AC instead of doing ACC, I think they could have done something like that for manual gears.
You have Studio 397 who are serious about physics but they move slowly like an elephant and it will take them ten years to finish.
Or Sector3 who are so conservative and so stingy.
iRacing who don't care about physics as much as they care about money and content.
SMS and Codies who are totally or partially shallow arcades.
Maybe Reiza who is a small budget team with limited capabilities but enthusiastic enough to invest in developing a model like that.

(Those are only personal opinions about who can or want to implement new things not intended to compare or say someone is better than the other).

 

[RCHeliguy]

While you can't replicate the real G-forces of a car, in a sim it's more important to fool your brain just enough.

I've found that in VR that a little motion goes a long way and if you combine that with a good tactile and audio track the immersion feels pretty darn good.

For example starting the engine and feeling the engine turn over and get into a lumpy idle and the feeling the rear wheels sliding along with the audio and a little lean motion isn't remotely the same as real life, but you adapt quickly and learn to pick up the queues from what you have.

FWIW many on these forums will give iRacing a bad reputation on the feeling you get, but I've noticed that people with motion and tactile tend to be much happier with how iRacing feels than people with just direct drive steering.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW with regard to having the clutch / shifter interaction working, that will be independent of the sim you are using.

ProSim will simply use the clutch pedal value to control the hydraulic lockout, so it will feel the same in all titles.

 

[azaralamouri]

While you can't replicate the real G-forces of a car, in a sim it's more important to fool your brain just enough.

I've found that in VR that a little motion goes a long way and if you combine that with a good tactile and audio track the immersion feels pretty darn good.

For example starting the engine and feeling the engine turn over and get into a lumpy idle and the feeling the rear wheels sliding along with the audio and a little lean motion isn't remotely the same as real life, but you adapt quickly and learn to pick up the queues from what you have.

FWIW many on these forums will give iRacing a bad reputation on the feeling you get, but I've noticed that people with motion and tactile tend to be much happier with how iRacing feels than people with just direct drive steering.

What you said about quickly adapting to motion and believing it was, (sorry to say that in caps but), 100% TRUE and guaranteed and proven by actually trying it out. I can't rephrase what you said in better words. Yet many people disagree with us and I respect that.

 

[azaralamouri]

BTW with regard to having the clutch / shifter interaction working, that will be independent of the sim you are using.

ProSim will simply use the clutch pedal value to control the hydraulic lockout, so it will feel the same in all titles.

Prosim Shifter £1,195.00... if only I could look in the mrs eyes after buying a toy for £1,195.00 (or tbh)..

 

[RCHeliguy]

Prosim Shifter £1,195.00... if only I could look in the mrs eyes after buying a toy for £1,195.00 (or tbh)..

Remember that these are just toys. When a toy like that is a drop in the bucket, it's an easy purchase. If it's not and there are other priorities that need to come first then it is a stupid waste of money. Keep your priorities straight and don't worry about it.

 

[TedBrosby-]

If you have the physics background to be able to simulate G force in a stationary environment, you wouldn’t be in the sim racing engineering market to begin with. You’d likely be hired by NASA for gravity simulation for deep space travel.
G force is literally gravity. And to simulate it, NASA literally has vertical air jets that suspend bodies in air. They also use these super huge carnival ride “centrifuge” tools that spin you at absurd speeds to simulate g force. These are millions of dollars and they’re constantly hiring PhD physicists and engineers to work on them and refine them.
Most people don’t realize Niels Heusinkveld is a sim racer second but he’s at heart an engineer. There’s a reason he doesn’t advocate for motion platforms in their current form. The truth is, the closer you get to simulating real physics and G force, the more motion sick you’ll feel. This is because your brain feels like it’s almost the way things should move but something is off, and this causes an unbalance in your equilibrium.
Motion in simulators will always be about immersion first and realism in a far distant second place. There’s a reason professional racers who drive sim racing prefer to completely disable road effects and telemetry based force feedback. It’s all a trick to add details to the wheel that are missing from the chassis. But they don’t expect those details to be pronounced in their hands but nonexistent in their seat and inside their ears so it feels disturbing.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I don't think I could disagree more about motion.

Almost everyone would get nausea in VR when they tried my sim rig UNTIL I added motion, now it is VERY rare that anyone gets nausea on my rig.

As an extreme example Dirt Rally in Finland going airborne etc.. without motion it really messes with you, but with motion it is night and day better. Now add tactile to motion for texture and you feel like you are in the car.

This has nothing to do with mirroring reality. It has everything to do with tricking your brain which does not require reality.

I might feel differently if I were racing real cars, but I'm not.

 

[azaralamouri]

If you have the physics background to be able to simulate G force in a stationary environment, you wouldn’t be in the sim racing engineering market to begin with. You’d likely be hired by NASA for gravity simulation for deep space travel.
G force is literally gravity. And to simulate it, NASA literally has vertical air jets that suspend bodies in air. They also use these super huge carnival ride “centrifuge” tools that spin you at absurd speeds to simulate g force. These are millions of dollars and they’re constantly hiring PhD physicists and engineers to work on them and refine them.
Most people don’t realize Niels Heusinkveld is a sim racer second but he’s at heart an engineer. There’s a reason he doesn’t advocate for motion platforms in their current form. The truth is, the closer you get to simulating real physics and G force, the more motion sick you’ll feel. This is because your brain feels like it’s almost the way things should move but something is off, and this causes an unbalance in your equilibrium.
Motion in simulators will always be about immersion first and realism in a far distant second place. There’s a reason professional racers who drive sim racing prefer to completely disable road effects and telemetry based force feedback. It’s all a trick to add details to the wheel that are missing from the chassis. But they don’t expect those details to be pronounced in their hands but nonexistent in their seat and inside their ears so it feels disturbing.

I agree about every thing you said. All that NASA (and I would write it in caps even if it wasn't like that) with it's millions and billions and trillions is capable to do is to send its trainee astronauts into airplanes that fly up and down to give them moments of training for zero gravity and extreme g forces.

Now allow me to disagree about the motion sickness thing.
I've been to Sim Racing Expo and tried different types of motion sims (ending with 6 dof or full motion) and if you have a small brain like mine it will be tricked that it's doing the real thing in minutes. Kind of that experiment when they give you random viewing glasses and make you play football, in the beginning it's funny but then you adapt.

 

[azaralamouri]

BTW guys, I drove on Nordschleife in real life and it's a roller coaster. You might not get motion sick (although some in faster cars and Porsche's did), but you get extremely tired and need a break between each two laps, at least that was me others might have better fitness.

 

[azaralamouri]

BTW with regard to having the clutch / shifter interaction working, that will be independent of the sim you are using.

ProSim will simply use the clutch pedal value to control the hydraulic lockout, so it will feel the same in all titles.

I searched for hours and hours but couldn't find info, can you explain more how Prosim makes the clutch pedal and the gear shift work together?

 

[RCHeliguy]

I searched for hours and hours but couldn't find info, can you explain more how Prosim makes the clutch pedal and the gear shift work together?

They don't yet.
This is something they have announced as being under development and close to release for a while.

 

[azaralamouri]

They don't yet.
This is something they have announced as being under development and close to release for a while.

thanks

 

[RCHeliguy]

A little more detail: What they say is under development is an accessory that bolts to the existing H-pattern shift. It makes it hard to shift unless the clutch is depressed and is controlled electronically mapped to the Clutch Pedal's output signal.

To be fair, I'm not sure how much of a difference that will make. As long as you have the clutch fully engaged when you shift it won't feel any different.

The only thing it would help prevent is a mis-shift.

 

[LeeHetherington]

Seems like they should make it depend on rev matching too.

 

[5-Card-Major]

Prosim Shifter £1,195.00... if only I could look in the mrs eyes after buying a toy for £1,195.00 (or tbh)..

WORD. I can relate to this post in a significant way...

The key is to avoid eye contact as best you can while not being obvious about it. But, the 'side-eye' eventually will get you, and then THEY win, they always win.

-The guy without a rig.