6 shaker tactile project

[Johnny Carr59]

Hello and thank-you RD for the forum.Thank you also to Mr Latte and Andre for the hard work you both put into tactile feed back.

I am starting work on a 6 shaker sim racing cockpit.For the time being I will be using an Obutto Ozone cockpit but plan on building an 80/20 rig in the near future when time allows.I have isolation pucks where the front and rear halves of the Obutto connect and also between my GS-4 seat and Ozone frame.

For shakers I have 2 Buttkickers Advances attached to each side of my seat just ahead of my hips and 2 more BK Advances attached to Clubsport V3 pedals,1 on each side.Then I have a TST 239 under my seat and another TST 239 attached to the wooden table on my Obutto.I also have 2 more TST 239's unopened in boxes and a small Daytona puck I have no idea what I would do with.I wont be surprised if the BK's on the pedals blend into each other.I have a few ideas to try down the road but this is just a start.

For amps I have 3 Inuke 3000's with DSP.I have no idea how it all works and admit to being a little overwhelmed at the moment.

I already have Simcommander 4 with simvibe but I purchase simshaker wheels after reading about it here.I also purchased the 6 shaker support but have no idea what that is lol.

Last week I managed to get the 3 shakers that I had attached working with SSW.I had DL'd an ASIO4ALL and was able to select my XF-i soundcard in 6 channel mode.I have just installed the Xonar sound card and have yet to be able to select the Xonar in 6 channel mode.

I work 90-100 weeks in the film industry here in Vancouver BC.The show Im working on ends next Friday so I will have the time to focus on this.I'm enjoying a 3 day weekend now so am able to install everything and start messing around.

Like I said slightly overwhelming with the SSW,Simvibe and Inuke amps so use small words when you help please .I have had PC's and been sim racing since 1996 but must admit to being challenged when trying anything new.

I will have many questions along the way so thank-you now in advance for advice and opinions.

I have all the sims but only run iRacing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Lots of nice hardware dude

Mmmmmmmmmmm, wouldn't you be as well waiting a while and getting the 8020 profile as going to the bother of fully installing these on your Obutto to then want to go 8020 anyways?

I think we should consider a thread where 8020 owners can discuss tactile installation and isolation matters. Get you owners involved in proper discussion, as It does seem the ideal platform with the options and easy adaptability it brings.

Would like to get you to do some tests with that Dayton Puc compared to the TST with some high frequencies, as it closely resembles an "Exciter" than a proper low bass tactile unit. Im thinking can we use these for instance in the role of a "tweeter" to bring more detail of high frequencies to specific cockpit/body regions?

Help can be given with SSW etc but judging on the hardware you have, the Obutto seems a restriction regards the installation. You could have Dual Role configuration using the 4x Advance and 4x TST combined or alternative installations. Although, this may need an additional iNuke DSP 1000.

I can help with SSW effects, if your prepared to do testing and help me in return.
As, how we deploy some of the effects over the channels is something I am currently also testing with my newest effect files.

Think things over anyways.....

 

[Johnny Carr59]

Hello Mr Latte and thankyou for the reply.

My last day of work on this project is Friday and then I will have a few weeks to concentrate on tactile feedback.

I can try and help where I can but with neglected children and a girlfriend waiting for their “quality” time and catching up on most everything I won’t be able to hyper focus on just one this.

This weekend I fumbled about and got 2 bk’s Working with SSW and 1 sound card using the green speaker jack,2 more bk’s on SM CM using a second sound card green jack and 2 TST’s using the onboard green speaker jack.I could not get 4 shakers working with either SV CH or SSW but with my limited pc skill I considered that a small victory.

Surprisingly it thought it wasn’t as blended together as I feared but obviously with the rigid structure im using there would be tons of room for improvement.This weekend I will upload a few pics showing how I mounted everything.

My first impressions with 6 shakers operating?I didn’t know Sebring Raceway was so bumpy.I use an oculus rift to drive and my brain actually told me that the shakers were making the dashboard in the sim shake.

I’ve been considering an 80/20 cockpit for quite a few years now.I come from a time in sim racing where if you wanted a cockpit you made it yourself and the old forums here had a great thread on DIY cockpits.Now that im getting into tactile feedback an 80/20 rig will be necessary.The 80/20 rig I saw here with the 4 big bk’s is the best designed Ive seen.Theres an old gear head saying,”you can make a pretty cool $20,000 hotrod for $30,000”.I would pay for plans from someone else’s hard work and determination if it saved me hours of frustrations,wasted time and product.


Btw that Dayton puck is tiny.Couldnt be more that 3” in diameter and is 8 Ohms.

 

[Mr Latte]

We could have, and really NEED here on the forums simple guidelines and tutorials.
To make this more user-friendly for forum members. Had some discussion on this with Paul and bring some improvements to help and encourage tactile newcomers or even the curious.

The idea is to making install and setup, simple like ABC. My own focus is mainly in the pursuit of pushing tactile to new limits but plans are in place to bring simple guides and understanding as so many seem to have an interest in tactile but find it rather daunting or confusing, which it is, but doesn't have to be....


Better, grab a coffee....


No rush in moving forward with this, all in your own time buddy. Enjoy family again and then share the pics of installation whenever suits you.

I recently referred to the "Heave" sensation you can get with the better tactile in the general thread. I agree it can be convincing. With AC I noticed it a lot in recent testing with the Mclaren 650 GT3 and the FXX 599. Some cars perhaps, have not so much movement though.

For SSW 6 Channel mode to work.
Ensure you have this installed HERE
Easy to set up just select the card your using for SSW. You shouldn't need to change from the default settings within this. Keep in mind with SSW unlike Simvibe it can support 6 channels on 1 soundcard.


(sip coffee here)


Right so just to help a bit with getting you up and running in 6 channels.

The recommended card to use with SSW is the Asus DGX
In SSW set the soundcard as ASIO and 6 Channel. In the ASIO tray tool settings select the soundcard for this role and use the default settings. Then connect the cable to the appropriate channels/amps that power your various tactile.


SSW & ASIO setup.





Windows / Soundcard Settings



Just follow these:






Okay so onto your reply again, yeah the Dayton Pucs are small indeed, though a cheap and cheerful entry into tactile immersion for many. I had some briefly years ago but curious again if they might be useful for high bass frequency extension on specific parts of a rig.

How about I help you and in turn you help me, lol?


Personally, I'd like to try or have someone have a go with using 3 units on a single channel. A test for a "TRI ROLE" config, using the following like a 3-way speaker.

1x BK unit , 1xTST unit and 1xPuc tactile for the individual output of, Low Bass, Mid Bass, High Bass Hz. Oh heck why Mr Latte (lol), well.........

I'm curious in using this particularly for engine RPM enhancement on the seat but with being able to strategically position and install 3 units for improved frequency control, the dispersion of the effect and potentially more performance.

If your up for it, don't worry can help take you through it and your own setup ideas but let's make it fun and interesting, eh.

 

[Johnny Carr59]

Ok,,,lets work on the 3 shaker 1 channel test.Everything else can wait.

What do you have in mind?

 

[Johnny Carr59]

The soundcard tutorial was awesome BTW.I'm quite sure that will help others when they google search as I did.

I had success connecting an amp to the the LR and RL RR jacks on the Xonar card but didn't seem to get the C Sub jack working.I only messed with it for a few minutes then hooked that amp up to SV EM assigning seat and wheel to do some laps.

I read earlier here that the C Sub jack didn't supply as much umph as the other two jacks and this is the amp powering TST's which lack thump so perhaps I'm wrong.All 6 shakers reported back when I configured the sound card in playback devices but only after setting the Xonar card up after reading the tutorial.

I'm going to drill mounting holes in the brackets for my seat and eliminate the bicycle training wheel "Z" brackets I used to mount two BK's on either side.They flex quite a bit and I'm quite sure direct mounting would work better.

I have a TST attached to the bottom of the seat near the front utilizing a hole in the bottom,a threaded "ready rod",Nuts,washers and bolts.I should be able to attach a BK unit the same way.There aren't a lot of areas on the back of a GS-4 seat to mount shakers.I could get one at about shoulder height.

The TST associated to the subwoofer makes an ungodly noise when tested in playback configuring.I thought it was toast and connected another TST but it did the same thing.

SV in CM on my front pedals seems to give a better report than SSW so far.I could sense right and left curbs with my feet as I went over them whereas with SSW it feels like 1 shaker.I could feel separation with my seat mounted BK's to a degree.

Nothing is mounted to the Obutto from FYI.

Pardon the rambling on,,,just food for thought.I'm more interested in working on what you have planned.Reply to them if you like.

 

[Mr Latte]

The soundcard tutorial was awesome BTW.I'm quite sure that will help others when they google search as I did.

Well in truth, much better could be done in a full SSW Unofficial Guide. Covering not just the install but each effect and slider control in the software. I'd like to do such someday perhaps.

I had success connecting an amp to the the LR and RL RR jacks on the Xonar card but didn't seem to get the C Sub jack working.I only messed with it for a few minutes then hooked that amp up to SV EM assigning seat and wheel to do some laps.

Keep in mind when working in Simvibe and SSW. Simvibe will NOT operate beyond 4 channels per card. So in Simvibe for CM and also Cen/Sub channel activity you would need a secondary soundcard. In Simvibe soundcard 2 will then use its main 4 channels for the additional "Extensions" to be used with the "Chassis Mode" of Soundcard 1. In each case, Green/Black are used on card 1 and card 2.

SSW is the only one that you can get or use the Cen/Sub channels to operate with and it support upto 6 channels on 1 card.

I read earlier here that the C Sub jack didn't supply as much umph as the other two jacks and this is the amp powering TST's which lack thump so perhaps I'm wrong.All 6 shakers reported back when I configured the sound card in playback devices but only after setting the Xonar card up after reading the tutorial.

From memory, the issue here is that Windows can configure the front/rear "Quadraphonic" channels to be set for full range bass (recommended) or limited bass (not recommended). We cant do this with Cen/Sub IIRC.

However we can set the "Center" to a "Large Speaker" and the "Sub" to "50Hz" within the Asus "Flexbass" controls of the soundcard.

Note that depending on the install and proximity of different units a user may want "less gain" on a specific unit. For example a TST for the "Spine". This will be determined to what amplification volume and what "Gain" level they have set for the soundcard to use. You can either reduce the gain level for the soundcard or alter the volume knob on the amp for that channel.

See "Mixer" tab on the Asus DGX software, here you can increase/decrease the soundcards gain output per channel.

I'm going to drill mounting holes in the brackets for my seat and eliminate the bicycle training wheel "Z" brackets I used to mount two BK's on either side.They flex quite a bit and I'm quite sure direct mounting would work better.

Please show images at some point as then much easier to understand and relate to.
I would say until people group together regards a fixed platform like 8020 for in-depth tactile installation testing. Then on individual platforms like your cockpit it too can bring improvements by trying more than one solution, position or method the tactile are installed etc.

I have a TST attached to the bottom of the seat near the front utilizing a hole in the bottom,a threaded "ready rod",Nuts,washers and bolts.I should be able to attach a BK unit the same way.There aren't a lot of areas on the back of a GS-4 seat to mount shakers.I could get one at about shoulder height.

The TST associated to the subwoofer makes an ungodly noise when tested in playback configuring.I thought it was toast and connected another TST but it did the same thing.

Personally I would drill a GS4 to have a TST near Spine region. Here is great to help accentuate RPM and Gear effects. In the past I used a T100 isolator between the TST unit and installed material, to help support the 8" disc. Mainly just in case it ever got knocked or in movement with motion it may help support the extended bolt.

TST as also a full range speaker can be controlled for their noise. You can do this by reducing all the non essential EQ controls on the soundcard "Effect" tab. Try reducing all above 250Hz. Note as this is on the soundcard then it alters ALL channels.

This is one area the iNuke DSP via the individual amplifers/channels can be used BETTER to "improve things". Yet I snigger a little here in jest, as every so often, like recently. I get reminded by even "non-users" of DSP that it's of no or little benefit. How they seem to know better, not having tried it or learned to use to use it properly.


You can have EQ specific for the TST units just like you can have specific EQ for the BK Advance units. To get the level of control/operation of their output that you seek. Its only a matter of saving profiles on the iNuke amp and using them or different ones for other sources or moods.

SV in CM on my front pedals seems to give a better report than SSW so far.I could sense right and left curbs with my feet as I went over them whereas with SSW it feels like 1 shaker.I could feel separation with my seat mounted BK's to a degree.

Please voice your opinion on the SSW support thread in these forums.

As a user of both software options, I agree. My own attempts to get the developer to listen and bring improved bump activity to SSW seems to annoy him or confuse him that we need actually 2 things. "Stereo Bump" control and "Bump/Surface" activity control. Not like the current option of a single bump control that determines and compromises the output of both.

While you are not getting the best sensations at this stage with only default .wav for effects.

Please may I suggest you try SSW "Bumps" with a threshold of 70% or more. This WILL in my experience bring better "stereo accuracy". Yet in doing this currently in how SSW is operating, it then will kill (filter out) the vast majority of bump sensations.

What I have suggested is new/ improved option with two controls to enable users to control both the "surface activity" and "stereo bump impacts". If we had this combined with the ability of using individual .wav (effects) I personally believe we can better Simvibes bumps but its getting the developer to bring the options.

Nothing is mounted to the Obutto from FYI.

Pardon the rambling on,,,just food for thought.I'm more interested in working on what you have planned.Reply to them if you like.

Hey, I ramble on a tonne, just how I post. Keep us up to date with whats happening and images as these make it more enjoyable or easy to see what you are describing.

 

[Johnny Carr59]

Well I'm finally going to have a little time to work on tactile feed back.I'm off work for at least 3 weeks.

Here are a few pictures showing how I have been mounting shakers to the rigid Obutto Ozone frame.In time everything will be made to look more aesthetically pleasing.This is a start using what I had laying around the house.

This is one of two shakers that I had mounted on each side of my seat.That is a bicycle training wheel bracket that was left over from when my kids were tiny.Initially I was going to use a straight piece of flatbar but wanted to see if the extra length and flex would augment the shaker effect.(plus I didn't have any flatbar laying around lol).While it does work and I can feel a certain amount of separation form side to side I do believe drilling holes in the seat bracket and mounting direct will give a much better feel.I've added vibration isolation pucks between the seat brackets and Obutto frame.

Here is how I mounted 2 shakers to my pedals.Again I have used bicycle training wheel brackets.These brackets are smaller in length than the brackets holding the shakers to my seat so there is no flex.When I run simvibe chassis mode I could feel each shakers individually as I went over curbs so there was some separation there.I had to remember to keep my left foot where it would feel the vibration while I drove.With SSW I just felt one shaker but that's another pending post in another thread.

I have mounted this TST 239 silver to the back of my seat.With a GS-4 seat you are limited to where you can drill holes as the back is wall to wall servos and associated parts.This shaker is situated pretty well between my shoulder blades.

Here I have attached a BK advanced under my seat utilizing a piece of wood and threaded ready rod.The BK and TST are being readied to test 3 different shakers running in sequence off 1 channel for Mr Latte.I will add the Dayton puck once Mr L suggests where to do so.I may look at drilling more holes for a direct mount but again space is limited.Note the isolation pucks where the back and front halves of the Obutto connect.

 

[Ceolmor]

I have mounted this TST 239 silver to the back of my seat.With a GS-4 seat you are limited to where you can drill holes as the back is wall to wall servos and associated parts.This shaker is situated pretty well between my shoulder blades.

View attachment 237135

This all looks interesting. Has attaching the TST239 to the seat like that given you the effects you were hoping for?

 

[Johnny Carr59]

I need to do more testing and have much to learn before I can make a proper evaluation of how it feels.This was a suggestion from MR Latte to improve engine feel.Since the aim is to improve engine sensations I will turn off all other effects this evening and do some laps.

Right now each shaker is on its own channel but soon I will connect the BK,TST and a Dayton puck to one channel once Mr L shows me how to properly do so without damaging the equipment.

I am just starting out with tactile feed back and still just learning.I have iNuke 3000 amps but don't really know how to operate them yet.I am in it for the long haul so will be quite visible asking questions and trying new things.Hopefully others will benefit from all the help I get as I have from everyone here's own threads and posts.

 

[Mr Latte]

Its good to progress a bit yourself, first within your own tests and getting used to the software and tactile in general on each unit.

With SSW we can use the Car Profile folders to have within them different groups of effects or different effect sensations. These you could then vary between to feel differences. Also with these, I can supply you effects that operate on "specific channels" we determine within Audacity software that SSW uses to generate such waveforms.

For example, being able to compare "Engine" effect operating on all units or only the BK Advance and TST.

As this thread can be a resource or learning exercise to some perhaps, then we can cover this later.

No rush on doing the test I asked, though I think we could try the Dayton Puc on the inside of the seat at the thigh regions. It may be limited to what it brings but its just seeking to be creative and seeking better delivery and more detail from effects.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for doing test from the other thread.
Now lets help you feel what SSW is capable of with custom files.

See your PM for a gift...

We will get you up and be running with iNuke DSP profiles soon too...

Confrim for me your configuration, Im unsure how your using your central units on the seat...
It would be best to have both the central BK and TST as the "Sub" channel with both operating as a "Dual Role" set.

Front 2x BK ADV
Rear 2x BK ADV
Sub 1x TST *
Sub 1x BK ADV

* I presume you may currently have the TST as "Center Channel"?

So we keep all effects to the appropriate channels. I feel its best to have "Center" channel as a possible (or future) central unit for the pedals. Then the "Subwoofer" channel as a central unit for the seat.
This would be ideal to place "engine" and "longitudinal effects" onto these mono channels. Reducing the workload for the front and back stereo pairs. These we can keep mainly for bumps, wheelslip and lateral G based effects.

Look forward to getting some feedback or discovering your own preferences. I will show you how to place the custom .wav effects to the appropriate channels. Its real easy. Then when in a sim you can load different "car folders" that have effects placed to different channel options to help determine what you prefer.