Hi. So I just recieved 4 buttkicker mini lfe's that i want to mount to my rig. I was just wondering if there is a reason no one suggests AV recievers for connecting buttkickers ( or any bass shakers). Theys seem to be decently priced and have enough channels for multiple shakers. They can be had for cheap compared to the Behringer amps that people always suggest. And its becoming hard to find the Behringer options. Especially here in the states. ANyone have experiences, good or bad with a decent AV reciever?
AV reciever for Buttkicker Mini LFE?
- Thread starter Greg Latty
- Start date
I have consistently good experience with Denon surround receivers,
including pre-HDMI models for driving tactile,
which mostly have discrete multichannel RCA analog inputs. In my experience,
older Onkyo and Yamaha receivers were more liable to develop noise volume controls.
4-digit Denon receiver models are typically more capable than 3-digit models.
Beware; U.S. eBay currently seems to have a flood of "for parts" listings.
stigs2cousin
Premium
I´m also using an ( old!!) Yamaha RX-V 795a for my tactile.
I bought it on a hunch because it had the wrong plug and couldn´t be tested at the sellers house so got it for 20€.
In the year I´m using it one channel stopped working which is not a problem as I need only four.
You should know that most receivers that have the necessary analog inputs are nearly twenty years old and electronics that old are a gamble on further life and usefullness.
The RX1900 I use for my Home Cinema is from 2010 and still has analog inputs but it was fairly high end and expensive then.
So:
it is feasable but you´ll have to look long and hard for a receiver that has analog inputs and is not to old to be trusted.
MFG Carsten
I bought it on a hunch because it had the wrong plug and couldn´t be tested at the sellers house so got it for 20€.
In the year I´m using it one channel stopped working which is not a problem as I need only four.
You should know that most receivers that have the necessary analog inputs are nearly twenty years old and electronics that old are a gamble on further life and usefullness.
The RX1900 I use for my Home Cinema is from 2010 and still has analog inputs but it was fairly high end and expensive then.
So:
it is feasable but you´ll have to look long and hard for a receiver that has analog inputs and is not to old to be trusted.
MFG Carsten
Michael Krone
Premium
I use an old Phillips FW-p78 receiver. It uses a 3.5mm jack from my PC to RCA into the receiver. The only downside is that I can use only L/R channels.
My wife got it for a Christmas present in the late 90s and you can still find them for sale on ebay but theyre not cheap when they come up. Good quality and they seem to be quite reliable.
My wife got it for a Christmas present in the late 90s and you can still find them for sale on ebay but theyre not cheap when they come up. Good quality and they seem to be quite reliable.
Thanks for the replies. So besides age, are the any other downsides when using with programs like Simhub(vibe)? Am i losing any functions and/or adjustments when compared to a power amp like the inukes and such? Also, what should I be looking for in a AV reciever to make it useable? Sorry for all the questions. I feel like this is a discussion not had too often. It helps us poor people
Without significant bother, S/PDIF connection from Windows does not work for multi-channel.
HDMI should work, but HDMI receivers will typically cost more for the same power.
More power is better; advertised consumer AV receiver power ratings must abide by
U.S. FTC rules, which DO NOT apply to commercial or many class D amplifiers
typically sold without integrated power supplies,
some of which claim as much as 10 times their actual useful capabilities.
To cite a famous example, Behringer's NX3000D would require a 25 Amp
service and be 100% efficient to deliver its claimed power in U.S. homes,
where most outlets are rated for no more than 15 Amps.
"My 140W Pioneer receiver drives harder than this NX3000D"
Many surround receivers DO NOT have discrete 5.1 or 7.1 analog RCA inputs;
best to independently confirm whether a particular model does, by checking
at a reputable website (manufacturer or e.g. Crutchfield) and/or inspection of rear image.
Typical bass/treble tone controls are generally not useful;
tactile transducers are useful over only a relatively small frequency range,
e.g. 10-200 vs 20-20,000Hz. Even within their nominal frequency ranges,
tactile response will typically be quite non-uniform.
For many effects, peaky response is not a particular issue;
simply adjust the frequencies of SimHub's tactile effects to suit.
For tactile effects intended to sweep over frequencies,
response equalization may be wanted, typically using DSP,
which can be done for free using Equalizer APO.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
I use Equalizer APO. with both Voicemeeter and Room EQ Wizard,
but then I also have extensive digital signal processing experience.
While it can be a pain to slog thru, this has been addressed:
Hi!
As there are few (none in fact) resources about how setting up this specific configuration, I'll post my progress here and share the results
As a start, I stumble on this exact problem:
Maybe I'll ask some help to configure APO if I don't succeed... @ScreaminBejesus @Ormy
I think I figured it out, see below...
PS: about DSP ParametricEqualization (hardware or software), see there: [tactile] Upgrading my tactile setup with DSP
stigs2cousin
Premium
I´m not sure windows does output HDMI Audio because I couldn´t get it to run when I changed from Playsy to PC gaming.
The "easy" way is to go discrete 5.1 output by RCA plugs ( I believe that´s what they are called.)
You should research windows outputs before going the HDMI route ( which would enable much newer and potentially more reliable receivers)
Judged from data a mid tier AV receiver should be able to drive the Buttkickers just fine.
( nominally 100 watts)
Have you checked with your sourroundings whether vibrating glasses in the cupboard are a go??
I had to try quite some isolation to satisfy my neighbour to not knock on my door while I race.
( she was very nice about it, but still this is something to consider)
MFG Carsten
The "easy" way is to go discrete 5.1 output by RCA plugs ( I believe that´s what they are called.)
You should research windows outputs before going the HDMI route ( which would enable much newer and potentially more reliable receivers)
Judged from data a mid tier AV receiver should be able to drive the Buttkickers just fine.
( nominally 100 watts)
Have you checked with your sourroundings whether vibrating glasses in the cupboard are a go??
I had to try quite some isolation to satisfy my neighbour to not knock on my door while I race.
( she was very nice about it, but still this is something to consider)
MFG Carsten
thank you for the detailed responses. I have a lot to research.
"
Have you checked with your sourroundings whether vibrating glasses in the cupboard are a go??
I had to try quite some isolation to satisfy my neighbour to not knock on my door while I race.
( she was very nice about it, but still this is something to consider) "
Im ok when it comes to vibration and noise. Its just my brother and I in our own house. No need to worry about noise and neighbors. Thank god.. So with the Buttkicker Mini LFEs should i be looking for a certain amount of Wattage per channel? I know tis 50 to 250 but is something like 100-200 per channel sufficient?
"
Have you checked with your sourroundings whether vibrating glasses in the cupboard are a go??
I had to try quite some isolation to satisfy my neighbour to not knock on my door while I race.
( she was very nice about it, but still this is something to consider) "
Im ok when it comes to vibration and noise. Its just my brother and I in our own house. No need to worry about noise and neighbors. Thank god.. So with the Buttkicker Mini LFEs should i be looking for a certain amount of Wattage per channel? I know tis 50 to 250 but is something like 100-200 per channel sufficient?
Well, if you can get a signal in, and amplify it, and then get it out...... should not be a major issue (I think?) Reliability of course has been commented.
- as others have said, the connections can be important, but there are adapters (or soldering) for almost anything.
- depending on the number and type of transducers though, you might want to just check the 'per channel' output power on the amp you're considering (and, simply be aware that the advertised output is a bit of a marketing thing, so in practice can be very different between amps that are advertised with same output wattage) I think the BK Mini are 50-250W each. Its unlikely you'd feed 250W to each of them, but maybe (I think they tend to overheat when run full steam). But I think you'd need to check the amp can output high wattage to each channel (amps are often 'total' output, so as example a 400W 4 channel amp is typically better understood as 100W per channel.... but check your amp details (unless you use some special speaker wiring like putting the units in series or parallel, each BK Mini is a 'channel') The more range you have to work with, the more you can fine-tune the strength of the different effects to get a result that you are happy with. Example, I use really high output for the gear change, but all the other things like rpm, etc are much much lower output. The larger the output feasible, the more control you have to separate things like that (in SimHub).
- the other thing that can become important is an ability to set or control a 'low pass' filter. With SimHub running the show, it should not be a major issue. But, if you ever run the game audio into the BK Minis (some games don't have a telemetry feed), or use them for flight sims (I think there's some software also for that, but not sure), or even just run some music/movies/audio through them....... you should have an ability to cut off frequencies above approx 200Hz. Otherwise, signals above that start to be audible (like a bad speaker) rather than just movement of the BK. This can be done also with software in Windows (I use VoiceMeeter personally, and am constantly impressed with how powerful this software is, even if it is complex). As an example of this, I run BOTH the game audio and SimHub output for Horizon 5. Why? Because the game music and sound effects are quite cool and I like the various cut-scenes and other sound effects to come through the BKs in addition to the telemetry from SimHub.
- All this above, is one of the reasons the Behringer amps are popular. They are very powerful per channel, I think most of them can even run 2 ohm (4 ohm is usually enough, but some transducers can accept 2 ohm) and the 'D' models have a built in DSP which let's you control the low-pass filter, but even more-so give the ability to really fine tune the different frequencies inside the amp. Are they really ouputing their advertised wattage? No idea, but I'm happy with my NX1000D. They are also (normally) a fairly good price comparatively for what you get. Especially for what is needed to run ButtKickers. Is it mandatory? no. Are you still gonna have fun without all that specific control? yes, most likely. Is it a nice-to-have, in case you realize you have a very sensitive butt.... yes.
Last point, if you're looking at the small/cheap amps like Nobsound, etc, they can be quite effective (I have 2 of them), BUT, be aware that they often come with a power supply that does NOT supply enough power to drive the amp at it's advertised output. Example, my Nobsound 100x2 =200W, has a power supply of approx 19+V x 4.6A (just from memory). In theory a max output of about 90W. Which then means approx 45 W per channel. (I'm sure I've oversimplified that, and someone will correct me, but that's OK because then I will learn something too). In order to get the max 100Wx2 out of the amp, you'd need to pair it with a much more powerful power supply (separate search, and cost). This is usually written somewhere in the fine-print of the tech-specs, at least with Nobsound I've always seen it pointed out..
All of the above is also quite dependent on how/where you can mount the buttkickers. How they are mounted can make a big difference in how much power you really need, and how much dampening/isolation is needed. Too much information on that in other threads, but it is super important to the final result that you really feel, and the degree of isolation needed.
Good luck. Have fun. If you have easy/cheap access to a decent AV amp, it doesn't hurt to try. Tinkering is half the fun, as long as it doesn't hurt the wallet too much.
- as others have said, the connections can be important, but there are adapters (or soldering) for almost anything.
- depending on the number and type of transducers though, you might want to just check the 'per channel' output power on the amp you're considering (and, simply be aware that the advertised output is a bit of a marketing thing, so in practice can be very different between amps that are advertised with same output wattage) I think the BK Mini are 50-250W each. Its unlikely you'd feed 250W to each of them, but maybe (I think they tend to overheat when run full steam). But I think you'd need to check the amp can output high wattage to each channel (amps are often 'total' output, so as example a 400W 4 channel amp is typically better understood as 100W per channel.... but check your amp details (unless you use some special speaker wiring like putting the units in series or parallel, each BK Mini is a 'channel') The more range you have to work with, the more you can fine-tune the strength of the different effects to get a result that you are happy with. Example, I use really high output for the gear change, but all the other things like rpm, etc are much much lower output. The larger the output feasible, the more control you have to separate things like that (in SimHub).
- the other thing that can become important is an ability to set or control a 'low pass' filter. With SimHub running the show, it should not be a major issue. But, if you ever run the game audio into the BK Minis (some games don't have a telemetry feed), or use them for flight sims (I think there's some software also for that, but not sure), or even just run some music/movies/audio through them....... you should have an ability to cut off frequencies above approx 200Hz. Otherwise, signals above that start to be audible (like a bad speaker) rather than just movement of the BK. This can be done also with software in Windows (I use VoiceMeeter personally, and am constantly impressed with how powerful this software is, even if it is complex). As an example of this, I run BOTH the game audio and SimHub output for Horizon 5. Why? Because the game music and sound effects are quite cool and I like the various cut-scenes and other sound effects to come through the BKs in addition to the telemetry from SimHub.
- All this above, is one of the reasons the Behringer amps are popular. They are very powerful per channel, I think most of them can even run 2 ohm (4 ohm is usually enough, but some transducers can accept 2 ohm) and the 'D' models have a built in DSP which let's you control the low-pass filter, but even more-so give the ability to really fine tune the different frequencies inside the amp. Are they really ouputing their advertised wattage? No idea, but I'm happy with my NX1000D. They are also (normally) a fairly good price comparatively for what you get. Especially for what is needed to run ButtKickers. Is it mandatory? no. Are you still gonna have fun without all that specific control? yes, most likely. Is it a nice-to-have, in case you realize you have a very sensitive butt.... yes.
Last point, if you're looking at the small/cheap amps like Nobsound, etc, they can be quite effective (I have 2 of them), BUT, be aware that they often come with a power supply that does NOT supply enough power to drive the amp at it's advertised output. Example, my Nobsound 100x2 =200W, has a power supply of approx 19+V x 4.6A (just from memory). In theory a max output of about 90W. Which then means approx 45 W per channel. (I'm sure I've oversimplified that, and someone will correct me, but that's OK because then I will learn something too). In order to get the max 100Wx2 out of the amp, you'd need to pair it with a much more powerful power supply (separate search, and cost). This is usually written somewhere in the fine-print of the tech-specs, at least with Nobsound I've always seen it pointed out..
All of the above is also quite dependent on how/where you can mount the buttkickers. How they are mounted can make a big difference in how much power you really need, and how much dampening/isolation is needed. Too much information on that in other threads, but it is super important to the final result that you really feel, and the degree of isolation needed.
Good luck. Have fun. If you have easy/cheap access to a decent AV amp, it doesn't hurt to try. Tinkering is half the fun, as long as it doesn't hurt the wallet too much.
Wow .. thank you for all the info.
HDMI multichannel audio from Windows 10 is possible,
requiring multichannel PCM support at the receiving end,
so not necessarily easy because HDMI protocol handshaking,
but (unlike S/PDIF) does not require special licensed drivers
which may be unavailable, depending on PC soundcard chipsets.
Shaking mass consumes power. Without isolation of masses to be shaken,
much power is wasted. If e.g. shakers are attached directly to the shell
of a racing seat, 20 Watts per shaker will suffice. On the other hand,
if attached to a rigid structure which is not isolated from the floor,
practically all power will be wasted, except at resonant frequencies.
It’s free so you get what you pay for.
It’s also the internet so make sure to do further research as well. Enjoy the BK Minis!
Mr Latte
Premium
Very few AV receiver models had the following combination:
A) Multichannel Inputs
B) 4ohm support
It would not be advised to try to run multiple 4ohm BK transducers on an amp that is designed to power 6-8ohm loads. Sony / Yamaha / Denon would have been 3 potential contenders with models that did offer both. Usually, it was their mid-high-end models that would have been suitable in the mid-2000s.
Simhub to my knowledge cannot output a DTS or Dolby encoded signal via HDMI
It requires analog outputs from the soundcard when using multiple channels.
*Note that when using Multichannel inputs on AV receivers typically it would bypass treble/bass or DSP modes/features the amp may of have. It was usually direct to the amplification pathway.
A) Multichannel Inputs
B) 4ohm support
It would not be advised to try to run multiple 4ohm BK transducers on an amp that is designed to power 6-8ohm loads. Sony / Yamaha / Denon would have been 3 potential contenders with models that did offer both. Usually, it was their mid-high-end models that would have been suitable in the mid-2000s.
Simhub to my knowledge cannot output a DTS or Dolby encoded signal via HDMI
It requires analog outputs from the soundcard when using multiple channels.
*Note that when using Multichannel inputs on AV receivers typically it would bypass treble/bass or DSP modes/features the amp may of have. It was usually direct to the amplification pathway.
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Not only does SimHub not support encoded multichannel,
which anyway has relatively poor channel separation,
but Windows 10 licensed neither DTS nor Dolby,
thus requiring a licensed OEM sound card driver, of which few exist.
Discrete (PCM) multichannel output via HTML IS possible,
as Internet searches will confirm.
Suitably derated, Denon receivers in my experience are fine with 4 Ohm loads.
For example, given 150 Watt rating into 6 Ohms,
expect no more than 100 Watts into 4 Ohms.
Mr Latte
Premium
USA models often had more wattage than UK/European counterparts.
If the amp states to use 8ohm speakers then based on self user experience of trying multiple 4ohm transducer units. It's possible to send an amp into protection mode as it will overheat/shut down.
If that happens, some models may even need a fuse replaced (IIRC Sony) but again this is my experience from @2006 when playing around multi-channel tactile long before even Simvibe was introduced.
It's more likely to happen with multiple BK mini lfe as these generally will want more wattage than your typical 50w budget transducer. But some guy on here is going to very likely not bother with isolating seat/pedal sections and just place 4 units on rigs corners. Therefore waste most of their output with vibes going into the rig frame (not seat/pedals )and because of that will want to crank the volume higher.
Some amps may be fine, but others will perhaps not be.
SimXperience recommended an Emotiva UPA500 for BK Mini which is basically like what old-school AV receivers offered.
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So i think i just found a great deal that makes this topic irrelevant for me. ( but may help others either way ) I found some NX1000D amps for 90 each. If legit, i think i got the deal of the year. Well see
