I can personally confirm that EQ APO
can do all those things and much more (OK for no.1 I haven't personally tried every soundcard obviously, but it works on every sound device I've ever owned).
I don't expect you to just take my word for it, but how can I prove it to you? I'm using it to do all those four things right now.
So you state all my 4 asked scenarios/queries, do indeed work.
How can you prove it to me. So now we have a personal interest that you are wanting to prove to me that EQ APO can do it all and not only that but much more
Ormy said:
At the same time Simhub outputs its bass shaker effects through one channel of the motherboard's onboard soundcard (it supports 8 channels but I only have the one BK). EQ APO is also applying the PEQs and a high-shelf boost to that channel for the BK. If I had 7 more tactile transducers and 7 more amplifiers I could connect those to the onboard sound and EQ them all independently with EQ APO.
Ormy said:
From all experience I've had so far I can't imagine that it wouldn't work.
So the truth is, you have not used Simhub with 8 transducers and been able to apply individual EQ and crossover controls to each channel to
confirm it works as you said it can. So we have another self-contradiction here.
Ormy said:
Is the difference in retail price between DSP and non-DSP behringers only £35? I thought it was more like triple that but I stand corrected.
Yes that is a great purchasing decision just for the limiters alone if you need that functionality. The power limiter is the one function that cannot be done by EQ APO or any software DSP
Indeed DSP on Behringer amps is not expensive and is why I recommend those amps offering super specs and value to other solutions. Here is another contradiction as now actually EQ APO cannot "
work as well or better" with this
unique and useful feature as one highlighted example.
Ormy said:
However, apart from the limiter function, in my experience, EQ APO can do everything the behringer DSP can do
So from your experience and perspective. You give the impression here you are well aware of what both options can do. You even previously commented that you have tried the iNuke DSP software and found it "clunky". You continue to then highlight other advantages EQ APO has seemingly to make up for this advantage the amps have.
Now, In reference to another discussion about mimicking Crossover filters I had illustrated and they could be applied to most other DSP amps or DSP boxes. I assumed you could put similar settings into EQAPO.
Ormy said:
Ok this is one minor limitation of EQ APO. It's standard low/high-pass function does not come with slope adjustments, only Q factor. So doing it quick and dirty looks like this.
Well, oh dear, so that's
another thing it can't do then...
Another point to highlight is that early adopters to EQ APO are not going to be able to do what you can do and use code to configure its settings/controls? Yet you agree with others that the actual user-interface for EQ APO is not that great but
only when someone else also "highlights" a drawback or issue.
Ormy said:
I know that if you want EQ APO to work on multiple devices you have to specify each device separately. If you want to apply the same crossover settings to multiple devices you have to do it individually for each device.
You can create proper butterworth filters but its a little more complex. 4th order cascaded butterworth high-pass look like this.
Code:
Eval: Qx=1/(2*sin((pi/4)*(0+1/2)))
Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 20 Hz Q `Qx`
Eval: Qx=1/(2*sin((pi/4)*(1+1/2)))
Filter 2: ON HPQ Fc 20 Hz Q `Qx`
So, now we get another slight issue/factor that really this is going to become extra knowledge, work or complicated for some to people to be able to do certain things in the software. Yet various DSP amps or DSP boxes make this quite simple indeed,
We are highlighting the pros/cons of the options/solutions
if others were to go this path you recommend and share. Afterall you have brought it to people's attention.
Ormy said:
The BK concert is identical to the LFE except is has a 2ohm impedance. I know all about harmonics (my undergraduate was in Physics), nothing much can be done about that with DSP though.
They are not identical
according to Buttkicker. Is this an assumption your given but it comes across as a fact? You don't mention, you have actually compared both in proper tests to determine any tuning differences? You also highlight that you know all about harmonics and that nothing much can be done about harmonics.
Ormy said:
My approach is to go with as much brute force from the amp as possible, and then use DSP to cut/reduce output. If the amp is lacking brute force, no amount of DSP boost can fix that.
So you share with me and readers here, what your approach is. We had confirmed that "Bridging" an amplifier is the best way to achieve the max brute force as possible (if the amp is lacking) Your amp actually has 50W more (rated) output than the BK LFE min specs. Yet we can tell thats not how you do things. As you have stated that you use the soundcard at 100% and have applied a 6dB boost for @60Hz
Ormy said:
I'm not telling people what they should do, just suggesting things they can do. I had an iNuke1000 lying around anyway, makes sense to use it rather than spending more money. A single channel is a bit weak for a BK LFE so I bridged it. If someone is buying everything (not using stuff their already have) then it is probably better value to buy a 3000 instead, I never said anything to contradict that
By suggesting what you're recommending and doing over various posts and that it can "do it all and much more", as well as being "free software" for people with standard amps. You
are telling people what they
should consider doing and presenting such as an attractive option. In every instance, you talk about the
benefits it brings.
Any negatives highlighted in our discussions are things I have put to you that you then try to deflect with other benefits EQ APO has.
You highlight here that a single channel is a bit weak for a BK LFE. I highlighted a better amp purchase option and it based on wattage figures as well as features/value. It was even put to you
as a question and for others reading to consider not as something you supposedly stated as your path being better.
It was never raised in that perspective but
you did previously state
you would need another 7 amps if trying to test an 8 channel configuration. Your words, not mine.
So you did previously give the impression you would use all amps in a bridged configuration as that is in line with your Brute Force approach. You certainly did not mention at that point it would make more sense to buy NX3000D amps. Therefore, excuse me but
THAT is why I raised it as a question to you as a better purchasing decision.
Ormy said:
A totally flat response is rarely desired for audio either, most people prefer a boost to bass frequencies etc. Regardless of the end goal, a flat response should always be created as the starting point before tuning to preference. This applies to audio and tactile.
That does come off as impressive reading.
Can you show us anywhere by a manufacturer that indicates people apply this approach with tactile?
How is your tuning going so far with the approach your taking and using your microphone?
Ormy said:
I want to be clear to people who might not have much experience with audio)
I am still not using any crossovers, why would I need to with only a single unit? A crossover cuts frequencies above or below a certain point. My subwoofers have a low-pass filter/crossover at 120Hz to stop them receiving any frequencies above 120Hz from games or movies. But my BK LFE (and its amp) is only receiving what Simhub puts out. And I can control exactly what simhub puts out through the settings in simhub. So again, why would I need a crossover?
It's becoming apparent what's questionable is your own experience so far with Simhub. How incorrect you have been on certain things and making claims or speculating some things like they are indeed fact. Amusing also how Mr W recently tried to state that we can control exactly what Simhub puts out though only its own settings.
By your own posts, you highlighted how using a microphone was so useful to determine what the Hz from the source (Simhub) is generating. To then ignore suggestions or advice and question the usage of using a crossover with low bass. As really with your mic approach you had not already discovered what frequencies with the effects used were indeed actually outputting from Simhub to the transducer.
A point I raise here for those reading....
How does someone tune a tactile unit, if they are not aware and take into account the operational characteristics this unit has regards certain frequency bands. Furthermore, if they do not know what frequencies are indeed being output from the source for the unit to generate.
Ormy said:
Downplayed? When? I didn't 'downplay' anything, I just said you can achieve the same thing with software DSP.
Ormy said:
My approach is to go with as much brute force from the amp as possible, and then use DSP to cut/reduce output. If the amp is lacking brute force, no amount of DSP boost can fix that..
I dont know anyone using the approach you use. So I question it. Brute force implies using the amp to its limits. You word it, like we want or need it as this approach fixes a problem that doesn't seem to be a problem.
Ormy said:
I state again that I am new to sim racing and simhub, setting up simhub for better effects is my goal and my reason for making this thread. I am not new to the world of DSP, audio, sound setup, amplifiers, tactile transducers.
Yes but the problem is "Your Approach" uses methods that others don't use. It does nothing to attract people using amps in more traditional method and with more budget tactile hardware. What help in settings or configuration have you given to them? After all your the guy promoting the use of EQ APO
Ormy said:
Tip: No need to buy an amp with built-in DSP or a separate DSP box (e.g. miniDSP). Free software called EqualizerAPO allows use of DSP filters in software on your PC. EqAPO is easier to use than the clunky DSPs on behringer and similar amplifiers, and much more capable.
Ormy said:
I only questioned why I would use crossover filters when they seem to make no difference on my setup. I never questioned anyone else's use of them. Please do not put words in my mouth, if you want to attack my statements that's fine but please do not misrepresent what I said.
I will concede based on the videos and my own testing that simhub is putting out more harmonics than I previously assumed, more than a proper tone generator would. See my thread for further discussion of this
You said you understand not only harmonics but were well educated in physics. You said Simhub alone gives you full control of what Simub puts out. You expressed "Your Reason" was due to using only a single unit and you highlighted how you were using only low frequencies which can be seen in your settings at the very beginning.
So the reason I said this below:
"
@Ormy has questioned me in other discussions, why
we would apply a crossover filter on a large BK if
we only are using low frequencies like only upto 60Hz in effects for it. "
Fact you were using only a large BK
Fact you were questioning why "you" should need a crossover on a single unit
Fact the single unit is not the issue
Fact your microphone did nothing to help you even notice this
Fact you asked more than once wanting an answer thinking you already understood things
Fact you were wrong
Fact Mr Wot was wrong
Fact nobody stated you were questioning anyone else's specific use of a crossover
Ormy said:
I want to be clear to people who might not have much experience with audio)
I am still not using any crossovers, why would I need to with only a single unit? A crossover cuts frequencies above or below a certain point. My subwoofers have a low-pass filter/crossover at 120Hz to stop them receiving any frequencies above 120Hz from games or movies. But my BK LFE (and its amp) is only receiving what Simhub puts out. And I can control exactly what simhub puts out through the settings in simhub. So again, why would I need a crossover?
"We" was used to illustrate, making reference as a "usage case scenario as Simhub users."
Your/Mine discussed opinions here has also nothing to do with his thread. I have no intention of dragging our own views or discussion there, The only reason you were linked to see that was to give you the
answer you requested and
visual proof.
So to all of us using Simhub. It would not matter what unit was being used or what the amplifier was. Being a single unit is irrelevant but you did not know this, you appeared to assume this was a factor. It was nothing to do with splitting certain frequencies to more than one unit. Which of course can be a common usage of a crossover. It was about your misunderstanding and also Mr Wots incorrect statements regards Simhub as to its own control limitations and what the true output being sent to transducers actually is at any given time.
My Own Conclusions To All This:
So far you are not achieving the same thing as can be done with DSP Amps or DSP boxes.
You don't even seem to have a very good tune working or effects testing the limitations possible with your own approach and method of amplification.
You may have issues with your installation, your BK or your settings in EQ APO but your limiting your output to only 60Hz as struggling to feel beyond this, So something isn't right with no confirmation from you determining what the problem is just more assumptions.
Nobody has come forward to say yes, this works to the ways requested/discussed with Simhub and multichannel tactile installation? Offering fully adaptable EQ and Crossovers on individual channels and on more than one soundcard as well.
You promote what is possible what the benefits EQ APO brings. When this gets challenged we discover new things that show issues/factors contradicting some of your own claims.
You State it is easier to use, or is less clunky but this seems questionable for some features or usages
We have yet to see you illustrate how it is much, much more capable regards things that matter or bring better performance or less hassle operation.
So far all we see is your ability to use code in EQ APO, no screenshots no recommendations of settings and no tests with other makes or models of transducers.
