Club Racing Standards

[Calvyn White]

I am not a happy member as I feel the standard of driving within the club at the present time is diabolical.

My opinion on this does not reflect on the regulars to the club, which there are more than a baker's dozen. You guys know who you are and I have no problem with the standard of driving from you and you have my respect because of it.

I say this because I've been knocked off the track 10 times in 7 races. Partially due to bad luck but mainly stupidity with no respect from another. I'd rather drive with 10 drivers that have patients, consideration and respect, then 20 drivers, half of which have one thing on their minds get to the front at all costs, no matter the consequences.

Far as I know the club is here for fun not for do or die driving. We all do our best to get that win but not at the expense of others, as it is for most. Knocking somebody off and waiting doesn't redeem you from doing something stupid as you still ruined your and more importantly somebody else's race. Just because you waited after knocking somebody off doesn't make it ok. There is absolutely no fun in that approach to racing within the club, that's meant to be for fun.

The only thing I can see that will help is more bans and warnings with punishments if not complied with. I feel that this needs to be enforced vigorously in order to get the fun we are here for.

The public multiplayer server mentality should not be allowed in any way, in any form within the club.

Sometimes I think there should be another stage before go on to the club. Something like 2 or 3 hours of training on race behaviour and racing standards or to acceptable standard before being allowed to join the club events. Just my opinion, not that my opinion would make any difference, as my opinion means nothing...

Mod Edit: I have moved this post to the main forum for general discussion. All views are welcome but please keep things calm and civil. Thank you.

 

[UMC 22]

I would agree that club standards do seem to have dropped somewhat since we got back to racing this year. Despite repeated requests from staff proceeding every race, there are still too many incidents involving people making silly, desperate moves which result in unnecessary contact and race-ruining spins and crashes. Why the increase? I honestly don't know.

The clubs are indeed all about relaxed racing where competition and winning comes a distant second to fun and respecting your fellow drivers. This is a message which seems to be getting lost somewhere along the way. "Relaxed" certainly doesn't mean "take silly risks, doesn't matter if you take someone out". There may be no points or prizes and winning may not matter, but getting punted is never fun whether you are in 1st or 31st.

The only thing I can see that will help is more bans and warnings with punishments if not complied with. I feel that this needs to be enforced vigorously in order to get the fun we are here for.

Ask any other staff member on RD and they will tell you that I am known as a hardliner. I believe in rules and their proper enforcement with appropriate penalties, and have no hesitation in issuing those penalties when required. However, in order to do that I need to know who has done what and when. I hear plenty of complaints about bad driving on TS during events, but do you know how many of those complaints turn into an actual incident report? Around 2%, if that. If I don't know about a problem then how can I do anything about it? If people are not being reported and are not being penalised, then what incentive do they have to improve for their next race?

What I am saying is what I've said before on multiple occasions... maintaining club standards is as much the responsibility of RD's members as it is RD's staff. Not only do you guys need to make sure you're adhering to our rules, but you are also our eyes and ears, seeing what we can't or don't see ourselves. If you see people breaking rules then don't just whinge about it and quit the race. Report it.

Just FYI, I will be putting special focus on club standards and rule enforcement again, just like I did last Summer. Penalising people is never any fun whatsoever, but it worked then and it will work again now. We've already proved that being friendly and simply asking people to take care and show respect is a waste of breath, so it's time to go back to the hard line.

For those that haven't read them for a while, please see our Racing Club Regulations. The penalties for breaking those regulations are at the bottom of the post, but are as follows:

Set system of punishment for breach of rules (other than the Golden Rule) in club events.

• 1st offense: PM warning explaining the rule broken, and potential penalty for next infraction.
• 2nd offense: Two week racing ban.
• 3rd offense: 30 day racing ban.
• 4th offense: 1 year racing ban.

I'll leave you with this:

 

[natedogg1867]

Ask any other staff member on RD and they will tell you that I am known as a hardliner. I believe in rules and their proper enforcement with appropriate penalties, and have no hesitation in issuing those penalties when required. However, in order to do that I need to know who has done what and when. I hear plenty of complaints about bad driving on TS during events, but do you know how many of those complaints turn into an actual incident report? Around 2%, if that. If I don't know about a problem then how can I do anything about it? If people are not being reported and are not being penalised, then what incentive do they have to improve for their next race?

What I am saying is what I've said before on multiple occasions... maintaining club standards is as much the responsibility of RD's members as it is RD's staff. Not only do you guys need to make sure you're adhering to our rules, but you are also our eyes and ears, seeing what we can't or don't see ourselves. If you see people breaking rules then don't just whinge about it and quit the race. Report it.

This is a very good point I think.

With many of the more serious things in life, there is some general advice that seems useful here. Document, document, document. Saying that someone has wronged you either intentionally or due to wrecklessness is one thing, but proving that they did will likely get something done sooner to correct this.

This task shouldnt solely reside with the league admins. In RR, every replay for a race you do is automatically saved. So if you have an incident in a race where you feel someone wrecked you or was driving beyond carelessly, go into your replays after and watch it back. If you still come to the conclusion that they acted poorly, take a video capture of the relevant portion of the replay and share it with the league admin, or even just the full replay file itself making a note of when the incident happened.

Perhaps 1 or 2 incidents from a person can be considered normal racing incidents... but more than that may show a pattern, and be easier to discipline.

This may have been done already, but judging by the statement that around 2% of complaints turn into action... my guess is that there isnt enough to go on to hand out punishment currently.

If that fails, maybe take a week break from the club races just so you dont take it so seriously next time around, and get to enjoy yourself more once again.

I'll leave you with this:

It seems this image is broken for me

 

[Kurupt CDN]

I'll leave you with this:

That can get you shot in some places around the world....you get that from a crime watchers add?Lol
just kidding

Good to see this issue brought up, as it was one of the reasons I stopped racing here back in the summer.

 

[RasmusP]

This may have been done already, but judging by the statement that around 2% of complaints turn into action... my guess is that there isnt enough to go on to hand out punishment currently.

Same for AC clubs...
2% turn into action doesn't that only 2% of reports turn into action. It means that we hear constant complains on TS (and in the forums) but just don't receive videos, PMs, names (only via PM!!) or anything. Just public complains where we can't do anything other than do nice words like a politician, lol.

We certainly won't watch every replay from every drivers perspective to clean it up. Also it's not like every incident report leads to a 30 day ban. If you see just a pattern of constant, reckless crashing but the golden rule isn't broken, we will come up with a solution guys!

 

[Calvyn White]

I think the fundamental problem is reporting any incident, it's a palava for all concerned. Having to make a video from different angles and then uploaded to YouTube blah blah blah.
If you are a steward you should have all the games amongst all the stewards without question. Most of these games have replay files, raceroom certainly does. I don't see once the issues brought to a staff member and if that staff member was in that race he can submit his file with all the relevant information given to him, lap, location on track name of the incident and any other relevant information. And if a staff member is not in the race, one can upload the file to the relevant staff member.
Having a member or a staff member having to make a video to submit to stewards is time consuming it may only take 30 minutes or so but I and staff members have more constructive things to do.
I certainly feel if it wasn't so complicated foremost, reports of incidents would be more frequent and racing would be cleaner. I find it a little unfair for remember (and staff) to go through all this palava to have the rules upheld. It really needs to be looked at and made a lot lot easier. But until then we will have to make do, so report report report. And let's get some cleaner racing in.

 

[RasmusP]

I think the fundamental problem is reporting any incident, it's a palava for all concerned. Having to make a video from different angles and then uploaded to YouTube blah blah blah.
If you are a steward you should have all the games amongst all the stewards without question. Most of these games have replay files, raceroom certainly does. I don't see once the issues brought to a staff member and if that staff member was in that race he can submit his file with all the relevant information given to him, lap, location on track name of the incident and any other relevant information. And if a staff member is not in the race, one can upload the file to the relevant staff member.
Having a member or a staff member having to make a video to submit to stewards is time consuming it may only take 30 minutes or so but I and staff members have more constructive things to do.
I certainly feel if it wasn't so complicated foremost, reports of incidents would be more frequent and racing would be cleaner. I find it a little unfair for remember (and staff) to go through all this palava to have the rules upheld. It really needs to be looked at to me made a lot lot easier. But until then we will have to make do, so report report report. And let's get some cleaner racing in.

We're always open to suggestions. So if you have an idea to make it easier, propose it and we'll discuss it for sure! In fact we have some regular discussions about how to make the report procedure the best for everyone.

Which I got from your post, not wanting to start a silly fight about words, just trying to be constructive as I get your points!

If you are a steward you should have all the games amongst all the stewards without question.

Who should these stewards be?

he can submit his file with all the relevant information given to him, lap, location on track name of the incident and any other relevant information

Raceroom doesn't have a timestamp afaik (@Ross Garland you said something about that somewhere iirc).
Raceroom also doesn't have a scroll bar either so how to find the right moment in a quick way?

Also:
Club & League Incident Reporting

"You are more than welcome to continue submitting video evidence. We will accept this form of reporting, no problems . However, we are now also accepting time-stamps and replay files as valid reporting mediums.

This means that when you go to submit an incident for report under the new system you will need to do the following:

1. Start a Private Message with the staff member who was overseeing or organising the event that the incident took place in.
2. Give a brief text description of events and the drivers involved.
3. Supply the time stamp in the replay at which the incident occurred.
4. Supply a copy of the replay file (files should be no larger than 50 MB)."

 

[Denis Betty]

We are no longer required to make a video. The system was looked at some time ago and the new system should be linked in every event thread. LINK
The first thing you should do, is reflect on what's happened. The Club Racing Rules state that we should wait 24 hours (to ensure calmness) and then review the replay. If you're still not happy with the other driver's actions, send them a PM and explain (politely) where you believe they've gone wrong. If you don't get a satisfactory response, this is when you should consider escalating your complaint.

TBH though, if the other driver waited, then RD rules were not broken. AFAIK the rules are, pretty much, legally binding. RD can't ban people who've paid membership, if they didn't break the rules.

Personally, I think the incidents that you have described, should be worked out between the 2 drivers involved. But there needs to be a culture of fair play at the club. If you all race together regularly, you need to have the conversation - often. "What's acceptable behaviour/driving and what's unacceptable?" There needs to be some consensus on this, but for me, the lead should come from the admin(s) (sorry Ross). I would advocate a written of code of conduct, which you could ask new drivers to read, before their first race. That way, you could ask them to confirm that they've read, and agreed to abide by the code. When incidents happen, you can then point to the CoC to help adjudicate on any differences of opinion.

We used to do this in rF1 club, but the trouble is, it soon was forgotten. Driving standards at the club however, are still pretty good. I guess this is far easier to maintain, with the low number of drivers we have. We all know each other, and it means much more to us that we don't let the side down, than what position we finish the race in.

Just my thoughts. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Denis Betty]

We are no longer required to make a video. The system was looked at some time ago and the new system should be linked in every event thread. LINK
The first thing you should do, is reflect on what's happened. The Club Racing Rules state that we should wait 24 hours (to ensure calmness) and then review the replay. If you're still not happy with the other driver's actions, send them a PM and explain (politely) where you believe they've gone wrong. If you don't get a satisfactory response, this is when you should consider escalating your complaint.

TBH though, if the other driver waited, then RD rules were not broken. AFAIK the rules are, pretty much, legally binding. RD can't ban people who've paid membership, if they didn't break the rules.

Personally, I think the incidents that you have described, should be worked out between the 2 drivers involved. But there needs to be a culture of fair play at the club. If you all race together regularly, you need to have the conversation - often. "What's acceptable behaviour/driving and what's unacceptable?" There needs to be some consensus on this, but for me, the lead should come from the admin(s) (sorry Ross). I would advocate a written of code of conduct, which you could ask new drivers to read, before their first race. That way, you could ask them to confirm that they've read, and agreed to abide by the code. When incidents happen, you can then point to the CoC to help adjudicate on any differences of opinion.

We used to do this in rF1 club, but the trouble is, it soon was forgotten. Driving standards at the club however, are still pretty good. I guess this is far easier to maintain, with the low number of drivers we have. We all know each other, and it means much more to us that we don't let the side down, than what position we finish the race in.

Just my thoughts. Sorry for the long post.

Edit: 'd on the reporting procedure.

 

[UMC 22]

Perhaps 1 or 2 incidents from a person can be considered normal racing incidents... but more than that may show a pattern, and be easier to discipline.

Actually, any breach of our rules is up for action. Anybody that doesn't wait even once is up for a 30 day ban, and they have no excuse for not knowing as the rules are clearly linked in every event thread. As for other breaches, the stepped penalty system is specifically designed to give people a chance to learn their lesson. Warning, two week ban, 30 day ban, one year ban.

This may have been done already, but judging by the statement that around 2% of complaints turn into action... my guess is that there isnt enough to go on to hand out punishment currently.

No, what I meant is that only 2% of people whining about crap driving bother to submit any kind of report at all. It would take the hands of 20 people to count all the complaints I've heard on TS over the last month, yet I can count the number of reports I've received on just one one of my own hands.

If you are a steward you should have all the games amongst all the stewards without question.

We don't employ stewards, they are volunteer staff. It is not reasonable to expect us to shell out our own cash and clog up 30GB+ of our hard drives with sims we never play just so that we can watch replay files and judge incident reports. That is why videos are often needed.

There needs to be some consensus on this, but for me, the lead should come from the admin(s) (sorry Ross).

The admins are not responsible for the clubs anymore. They are now the responsibility of the club managers, of which I am one. But this thread is about driving standards. RD structure is a discussion for the staff forums.

I would advocate a written of code of conduct, which you could ask new drivers to read, before their first race. That way, you could ask them to confirm that they've read, and agreed to abide by the code.

The club regulations are pretty much exactly that. They describe a clean, fair way of driving and respecting your fellow racers. By signing up to race people are acknowledging that they have read and understood those guidelines/rules and agree to abide by them. That is why I never accept "I didn't know" as an excuse.

That can get you shot in some places around the world....you get that from a crime watchers add?

No, it was the banner used when the new incident reporting procedure was announced.

 

[Kenny Paton]

People need to recognise that club races are trying to cater for all levels of skill so accidents will happen. Indeed you can see it often in real races and even in top leagues with super skilled racers. You've got to feel for the person who puts in a lot of practice and has their race spoiled but club races carry that risk.
We don't have deliberate wreckers but many overestimate their skills and get caught up in the heat of the moment causing incidents for others, that's part of human nature despite the rules and ethos of club racing..
It's also easier to let off steam on TS at the time then after having a look at the replay realise maybe it was a racing incident after all. If it's the same person doing something repeatedly then I think they would be reported but that's seldom the case.
The idea of rookie races was introduced to try and encourage people to join and to increase their abilities, but without some form of rating (which goes against club racing ethos) it's difficult to see where it could go.
I don't think race organisers should beat themselves up, considering the amount of events ran in all clubs compared to incidents then clubs are not doing too badly.
On the whole, speaking from a R3E perspective, I'd say most of our members enjoy their time on track and do their best to race fair and clean.

 

[kedy89]

I don't race that often anymore, but even in the few races I do I noticed the driving standards dropped quite a bit. The problem is that none of the involved seem to bother reporting it, even though the procedure is rather simple now. You hear/see them complaining in TS/the race threads, but that's it. You appear to be one of them Calv, saw you complaining a few times already, but by the looks of it you never reported a thing. Honestly, I think you've got yourself to blame as well then.

 

[BhZ]

I think there are mainly 2 reason for all these incidents. The first is that RD does not punish in any way someone that cause an incident, nor he gets some sort of warning as long as you respect the golden rule. In fact they focus a lot on the "golden rule", saying that if you cause an incident, you should wait for those involved in it, but it says nothing about the fact that you shouldn't cause an incident in the first place. For many this will seem a subtle difference, something that doesn't really make a difference, but this way there is no reason to attempt a crazy overtake...worst case scenario i'll have to wait for the guy i hit and try again the next time.
Another thing is the fact that "incidents" seems to be a topic that cannot be discussed on this forum. The best way for people to learn from their and others mistake is to see all the scenarios where incidents happened and give a chance to the drivers (not just those involved in it) to discuss about it so that the less experienced drivers can learn something. Maintaining the current system won't let people improve unless they work a lot on themselves without the help of RD.
Give us the chance to discuss incidents. I can't promise the discussion will always be peaceful, but i think it'd be still worth it

 

[Calvyn White]

I don't race that often anymore, but even in the few races I do I noticed the driving standards dropped quite a bit. The problem is that none of the involved seem to bother reporting it, even though the procedure is rather simple now. You hear/see them complaining in TS/the race threads, but that's it. You appear to be one of them Calv, saw you complaining a few times already, but by the looks of it you never reported a thing. Honestly, I think you've got yourself to blame as well then.

Well I can't report a driver that waited isn't that right? And in fact I've reported two drivers within a year. One of it is under process as we speak. Both these drivers did not wait the one under process took out me and another at the same time. So as I understand it you can only report bad driving if the rules are broken. Which leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the simple reason is if I wait, I'm ok. I like to see some encouragement that you can report, even if the driver did wait.

 

[RasmusP]

Well I can't report a driver that waited isn't that right? And in fact I've reported two drivers within a year. One of it is under process as we speak. Both these drivers did not wait the one under process took out me and another at the same time. So as I understand it you can only report bad driving if the rules are broken. Which leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the simple reason is if I wait, I'm ok. I like to see some encouragement that you can report, even if the driver did wait.

With the current rules a driver who waited will not receive a 30 day ban for breaching the Golden rule.
That doesn't mean that you shouldn't report it to at least raise the staffs awareness! How we will handle that depends and is better answered by a senior staff but as mentioned a few times: you are our eyes and ears! Even if hands are tied regarding the report, it's good to know about nonetheless!

 

[Calvyn White]

With the current rules a driver who waited will not receive a 30 day ban for breaching the Golden rule.
That doesn't mean that you shouldn't report it to at least raise the staffs awareness! How we will handle that depends and is better answered by a senior staff but as mentioned a few times: you are our eyes and ears! Even if hands are tied regarding the report, it's good to know about nonetheless!

Well be prepared for a lot of reports from me then, unless I judge it to be a racing incident. It's something nobody really wants to have to do but to order to get a clean race, one has to do what one has to do.

 

[RasmusP]

Well be prepared for a lot of reports from me then, unless I judge it to be a racing incident. It's something nobody really wants to have to do but to order to get a clean race, one has to do what one has to do.

My pm box is quite empty currently so fire it up!

 

[Calvyn White]

What do we want, more clean racing, when do we want it, now

 

[Andy_J]

It's not an easy solution for the admins to sort out. It is down to the member.
Discussions about club racing should be allowed, including incidents in my opinion. Once people see that they are being talked about and how their standard of racing is being scrutinised they will take notice. Keeping to the rules and having super clean racing is what everybody want's. I agree that the reporting system needs to be easy and it needs to be encouraged.
There is always a way to make it better. It's up to everyone to make it happen. As a race club grows in popularity, the racing tends to get lower standards. That's a fact. Small fields in club races are/were always clean racing and good fun and I used to enjoy club races when they were like that.

 

[Yetch]

Another thing to take into consideration is the huge gulf between abilities all in one race, something that rarely happens irl. Ability is not all about outright lap times, reaction time and composure are fundamental tools to have at hand but a long, bad day at work can affect both considerably, as do a zillion other real world issues. There are no pro drivers here (a few that think they are maybe), just enthusiasts (some a little over enthusiastic, again maybe).
in the 6 or so years I've been back to Sim racing the one thing I have noticed is there is not one or two fast guys, there are hundreds, overall standards (time wise) are phenomenal. The entire industry has ramped its game up big time and with this comes competition (which is great) with this also comes new people wanting to join in, where I believe RD jump in and do a great job, until there is some form of ranking system, it's surely a case of like it or lump it. Throw me in the ring with AJ and there will definitely be some bruising and the chance of me breaking some rules is a given.
Close high speed racing is an art few can master and even less can remain consistent at.
If it's not fun, don't do it, saying all this though I do have to add just one more thing, it's far more fun following someone for a couple laps, knowing where you're quicker, setting it up, then cleanly sliding by. Rather than having to pass at every corner, at any cost. I know a 15 - 20 min race doesn't give much time for this but that's down to you and your qualifying (something I'm generally at myself).
If the same Tom is consistently ruining your fun report them, after a polite PM of course, some people won't refrain until held back.
Just to bring this all back to me , I've popped my shoulder (again) so won't be darkening the Fun House for the foreseeable future so be nice Gentlemen and have fun!