CPU Ugrade?

[GuitarTech]

Hey Guys
I was thinking of changing my i5 6600K for an i7 7700K , as with my mobo it's a straight swap, I can even continue using my Noctua cooler.
Thing is, is it really an upgrade for car racing sims?
Where is @DucFreak when I need him? Does he hang out here since No Grip died?

 

[Kenny Paton]

He's on here, so maybe he can help, but there's plenty of others on here as well.

 

[natedogg1867]

I can even continue using my Noctua cooler.

For future reference... If you get a cpu that is on a new platform that doesnt have the mounting pieces included in your kit... Just contact Noctua and they will send you the new mounting plates so you can continue to use your cooler.

For instance, if you have an old NH-D14/D15 and use it on an old Ivy-Bridge system but plan on upgrading to Intel's new line coming out, just get in touch with Noctua after that happens to get the new mounting plates.

 

[GuitarTech]

For future reference... If you get a cpu that is on a new platform that doesnt have the mounting pieces included in your kit... Just contact Noctua and they will send you the new mounting plates so you can continue to use your cooler.

For instance, if you have an old NH-D14/D15 and use it on an old Ivy-Bridge system but plan on upgrading to Intel's new line coming out, just get in touch with Noctua after that happens to get the new mounting plates.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm only changing the CPU so that won't be an issue, but it's nice to know. Now I just need to know if the swap is going to be worth it from the performances point of view

 

[DucFreak]

Hey Guys
I was thinking of changing my i5 6600K for an i7 7700K , as with my mobo it's a straight swap, I can even continue using my Noctua cooler.
Thing is, is it really an upgrade for car racing sims?
Where is @DucFreak when I need him? Does he hang out here since No Grip died?

lo buddy. I recall very well the thread in NG forums for your build, back in 2016.

Your i5 6600K is still a fantastic processor today.
If you feel you need more CPU performance, then I'd consider overclocking before even thinking about upgrading. You can usually get 30% (if not more) performance gains with overclocking on that chip (and considering how good that chip is, that's plenty!).
If my mind doesn't fail me, you even choosed a good mobo and CPU cooler, both of which will do fine on that.

Also not that, while newer games will be (finally) using more cores, untill now few games have fully used more than 4 cores for gaming, with the majority rarely using more than 2 or 3 cores.
The i5 6600K is still more than enough, as IPC (Instructions Per Cycle, "performance-per-core") is still more important than number of cores for the majority of games, and that's something that processor is known to be good at.

If it's just for gaming with 60Hz monitor, i.e, unless you're into monitors with very high refresh rates (120hz and 144hz) and into streaming videos + creative content (productivity, etc), I'm not so sure the CPU upgrade path is worth it for the price.
But if you insist on it, the natural upgrade path for that processor and mobo (Z170?) is the i7 6700K (no need for BIOS updates) and, if listed as supported, the i7 7700K (if so, mobo will definitely need BIOS update). Either will be more powerfull but, at this point, at ~350,00 Euros market price, I'd consider only used parts (then both may be found under 250,00 Euros).

If I recall, your GPU choice then was a GTX970 (?). If still using that, maybe consider instead the investment into a newer GPU, it'll make a much bigger and dramatic improvement, as games are increasingly more dependent on GPU rather than on CPU.
The new Nvidia RTX 2xxx series will be released (at ridiculous high prices) on the global market very soon, and the prices on the current GTX 1xxx series will be going down, especially knowing that there have been stock excess (the mining craze has ended).... which opens an oportunity for someone that hasn't upgrade graphics in years. So, for example, a GTX1070ti or GTX1080 will soon be made available at much lower market prices then the current ones (500,00 and 550,00 respectively), which could be a solution for you to consider (IMHO).

 

[GuitarTech]

Nice to hear from you again
Funny you should say that about the GPU : I upgraded to a GTX 1080 a couple of months ago, so I'm fine there. My mobo would take a 7700K without mods, I have the latest bios. And my 6600 is already O'cd to 4.2 and runs cool and stable. I think that's quite good for a 3.5 CPU. The 7700k runs at 4.2 stock, 4.8 or 5.0 must be possible?

 

[DucFreak]

Nice to hear from you again
Funny you should say that about the GPU : I upgraded to a GTX 1080 a couple of months ago, so I'm fine there.

Yes, you're good on the GPU front for quite sometime then.

My mobo would take a 7700K without mods, I have the latest bios. And my 6600 is already O'cd to 4.2 and runs cool and stable. I think that's quite good for a 3.5 CPU. The 7700k runs at 4.2 stock, 4.8 or 5.0 must be possible?

Yes, it is, but at considerably higher temps and voltages (in my short experience with both, when compared to it, the i7 6700K shown much, much better temps and lower voltages).
Expect +15ºC degrees increase (more or less, depending on circumstances) on CPU load with the i7 7700K compared to your i5 6600K.

 

[GuitarTech]

Then l'll save my money, and spend it on cocaine and hookers instead

 

[DucFreak]

Just for the fun of it....

I guess that vid is getting dated (January 2017) but I still agree with the final comment at 2:07.
When all these modern CPUs are all capable of 1080P+ gaming at well over 60FPS on ultra settings (if given a good GPU to match), it's more about extra performance for particular situations and reasons than general ones.

 

[RasmusP]

Agree with that all. One thing to know is that although most forum posts, guides etc tell you that you shouldn't go higher than a "for being safe 24/7 called voltage" (1.35v for sandy bridge for example) and they also state that your cpu should stay below 65°c.
All friends of mine have Intel and CPUs. New ones, used ones... Some are constantly running at over 80°c, some have 1.5v applied (ivy bridge i5).

What I wanna say: if you don't need your cpu to be safely running until eternity, feel free to throw 5 GHz and high voltage at it and let it get up to 90°c. It will probably last another 5 years like that.
Of course only do that if you could live with it dying at some point.

I have some older games that weren't meant for 60 fps and don't use multicore so from time to time I deactivate hyperthreading, deactivate one core, put my I7 2600k to 4.9 GHz and give it 1.5v.
I still have no degeneration or whatsoever. My normal 4.4 GHz oc still runs like a Charme.

Just giving you some input. It's good that the guides etc tell you to be careful and blah blah but today's Intel CPUs can take a lot!

There's a video of der8auer taking off the cooler from a running 8700k and then doing benchmarks... It just downclocks to the lowest multiplier and still does its job at 95+ degrees!
It even tries to go up again every time the temperature drops a little. Kinda fascinating

 

[GuitarTech]

Agree with that all. One thing to know is that although most forum posts, guides etc tell you that you shouldn't go higher than a "for being safe 24/7 called voltage" (1.35v for sandy bridge for example) and they also state that your cpu should stay below 65°c.
All friends of mine have Intel and CPUs. New ones, used ones... Some are constantly running at over 80°c, some have 1.5v applied (ivy bridge i5).

What I wanna say: if you don't need your cpu to be safely running until eternity, feel free to throw 5 GHz and high voltage at it and let it get up to 90°c. It will probably last another 5 years like that.
Of course only do that if you could live with it dying at some point.

I have some older games that weren't meant for 60 fps and don't use multicore so from time to time I deactivate hyperthreading, deactivate one core, put my I7 2600k to 4.9 GHz and give it 1.5v.
I still have no degeneration or whatsoever. My normal 4.4 GHz oc still runs like a Charme.

Just giving you some input. It's good that the guides etc tell you to be careful and blah blah but today's Intel CPUs can take a lot!

There's a video of der8auer taking off the cooler from a running 8700k and then doing benchmarks... It just downclocks to the lowest multiplier and still does its job at 95+ degrees!
It even tries to go up again every time the temperature drops a little. Kinda fascinating

The most I have ever seen with my Sky lake is 68 deg. C, mostly around 64 deb C. That' s OK

 

[RasmusP]

The most I have ever seen with my Sky lake is 68 deg. C, mostly around 64 deb C. That' s OK

Yeah but you're only at a mild OC. Wait until you might go maximum oc hunting!
I tried to encourage you a little to do that and don't be afraid of melting it

 

[DucFreak]

It's completely true that Intel processors are far more robust for overclocking than most people give them credit for. But to use voltages above 1.4v on an i5 6600K for regular 24/7 usage is asking for trouble.
Also, max temperatures should be kept below 75~80ºC for Intel Skylake CPUs, and I'm not certain you can even ensure that at 100% load if with VCore at over 1.4v, unless with top cooling solutions.

When it comes to overclocking, it always depends on the silicon lottery but, with an i5 6600K you should be able to get a safe 4.5~4.6 GHz with VCore at 1.355v (or whereabouts).

 

[RasmusP]

It's completely true that Intel processors are far more robust for overclocking than most people give them credit for. But to use voltages above 1.4v on an i5 6600K for regular 24/7 usage is asking for trouble.
When it comes to overclocking, it always depends on the silicon lottery but, with an i5 6600K you should be able to get a safe 4.5~4.6 GHz with VCore at 1.355v (or whereabouts).

It's a bit like driving a car at high RPM. Might break something after some time, you better make sure that the oil supply has no issues but even if you don't treat the engine extremely well, with good cars it's more likely that rust or suspension ends the life of the car so why not have a bit fun if you could live with an unlikely but possible engine failure

 

[DucFreak]

Indeed, and that's the fun with overclocking. It's "hot rodding", not for everyone because there's always some element of risk and experimentation, but turning a capable chip into something even better can be a fun process!

Take my Xeon X5660, for instances... at stock it's 2.8GHz (for all 6c/12t), and after OC it's at 4.2GHz! Sure, it can even go higher (4.4GHz+) if I push it, but then it will need outrageous voltages (and temps) and I'm unsure it'll last me in a long term 24/7 usage.

Again, with an i5 6600K you should be able to get a safe 4.5~4.6 GHz with VCore at 1.355v (or whereabouts). That's pretty much the "sweetspot" I've seen people speaking of for that chip.

 

[Frank]

Then l'll save my money, and spend it on cocain and hookers instead

There is many reasons to actually do the upgrade you suggest and actually gain something out of it. But it mostly boils down to; do you multitask (streaming, browsing etc.)? If the answer is yes, the i7 will get you better performance.
Also don't forget there are more and more games out there actually utilizing more cores. A game like Monster Hunter World for example, is utilizing all my 16 logical cores. A few years back there was no reason to upgrade due to this, but now it is actually getting to be a legitimate reason.

 

[GuitarTech]

Indeed, and that's the fun with overclocking. It's "hot rodding", not for everyone because there's always some element of risk and experimentation, but turning a capable chip into something even better can be a fun process!

Take my Xeon X5660, for instances... at stock it's 2.8GHz (for all 6c/12t), and after OC it's at 4.2GHz! Sure, it can even go higher (4.4GHz+) if I push it, but then it will need outrageous voltages (and temps) and I'm unsure it'll last me in a long term 24/7 usage.

Again, with an i5 6600K you should be able to get a safe 4.5~4.6 GHz with VCore at 1.355v (or whereabouts). That's pretty much the "sweetspot" I've seen people speaking of for that chip.

Hey buddy I was out eating at a good italian restaraunt this evening, my eldest daughter had her 32nd birthday today, a good time was had by all..But don't you feel old when your daughters are 32 and 28.. When I got back home I started messing around with the BIOS. I cranked the CPU core voltage up to 1.355v, and tried to get the speed up as far as I could. 4.6Ghz was too much, the BIOS wasn't having any of that, and defaulted down to 4.4Ghz, so I've called it a day. It is absolutely stable at 4.4Ghz.
After 10 laps in ACC with heavy rain etc MSI Afterburner is telling me that I have a maximum CPU temp from 57°C, and a minimum temp of 25°C
With everything maxed out with temporal AA set, and with heavy rain selected in practice I'm getting up to 140fps With 20 cars and rain in a quick race I'm still getting between 60 and 70fps. I'm more than happy with that, and I've decided against a CPU change. Thanks again for your expert advice, and thanks to all the other guys that chipped in with good advice

 

[DucFreak]

I started messing around with the BIOS. I cranked the CPU core voltage up to 1.355v, and tried to get the speed up as far as I could. 4.6Ghz was too much, the BIOS wasn't having any of that, and defaulted down to 4.4Ghz, so I've called it a day. It is absolutely stable at 4.4Ghz.
After 10 laps in ACC with heavy rain etc MSI Afterburner is telling me that I have a maximum CPU temp from 57°C, and a minimum temp of 25°C

That's a pretty good number, but that processor can safely go further. Those are good, healthy temperatures! Which means you can bump it a little bit more with no problems. lol

For reference, 1.4v is considered the max safe core voltage for the i5 6600K, at which 4.8Ghz can be reachable... CPU and Mobo VRMs will tend to run hot then, so wouldn't recommend it.
But 1.355v~1.375v is considered a good, safe voltage area for 4.5~4.6Ghz, and maybe even 4.7GHz (depends on silicon lottery, as usual!). So, I'd say to play around a little more, as you're close to that "sweet plateau" now.

Max CPU temperatures should be kept below ~80ºC for Skylake CPUs.
If yours is under that when at 100% load on all cores during heavy stress tests (for OC stability, such as with IBT, Lynx, AIDA64, Realbench, PRIME95, etc) during prolongued time periods, then you're OK.


FWIW, the overclocking I've done with Skylake (6600K, 6700K) has been usually very easy, simple and repeatable, and done just with clock ratio changes. If the motherboard is good and well set from factory, most advanced settings in BIOS can be left at default values (for simplicity sake), usually with the exception of just a few.
In very basic terms, I'd usually go at it like this....

...Go to memory settings, for which most times we enable "XMP" (so that the memory runs at the manufacturer recommended speeds, timings and voltages), though making sure the computer ran stable with it, before overclocking.

...CPU Base Clock (BCLK) left at "100" (same as stock)
...CPU Clock Ratio manually set for desired overclocking, for example "45" to run at 4.5GHz (change to more or less if increasing/decreasing the OC)
...CPU Vcore manually set to desired voltage, for example, try 1.355 initially, and raise up to 1.375v if necessary (if stability stress tests fail, but watch the temps)

...Then make sure that "turbo-boost" is disabled in the BIOS, to get more precise control over clock speed when overclocking, like you are now (really, it's worth only if on stock clocks, for single-threaded workloads). If "turbo-boost" is enabled, it may be the cause for the instability you mentioned.
The priority is to get the base clock (for all cores) higher on equal terms, without such spikes (for stability), hence it should be disabled for overclocking.

Lastly, some Z170 mobos (Gigabyte?) show the CPU Flex Ratio options, which control the non-turbo ratio the CPU will use. I prefer to not change these, but you may differ.
If you do, then check if there is a "CPU Flex Ratio Override" option. As said, I tend to leave it at "Disabled" but, again, you may wish to enable it (to set to what you want).
If so, you can then manually adjust the minimum non-turbo ratio the CPU will use, through the "CPU Flex Ratio Settings" (default value is "20", if I recall correctly). Some prefer to put the CPU Flex Ratio Settings to same as in the CPU Clock Ratio (so, always same multiplier).

 

[GuitarTech]

That's a pretty good number, but that processor can safely go further. Those are good, healthy temperatures! Which means you can bump it a little bit more with no problems. lol

For reference, 1.4v is considered the max safe core voltage for the i5 6600K, at which 4.8Ghz can be reachable... CPU and Mobo VRMs will tend to run hot then, so wouldn't recommend it.
But 1.355v~1.375v is considered a good, safe voltage area for 4.5~4.6Ghz, and maybe even 4.7GHz (depends on silicon lottery, as usual!). So, I'd say to play around a little more, as you're close to that "sweet plateau" now.

Max CPU temperatures should be kept below ~80ºC for Skylake CPUs.
If yours is under that when at 100% load on all cores during heavy stress tests (for OC stability, such as with IBT, Lynx, AIDA64, Realbench, PRIME95, etc) during prolongued time periods, then you're OK.


FWIW, the overclocking I've done with Skylake (6600K, 6700K) has been usually very easy, simple and repeatable, and done just with clock ratio changes. If the motherboard is good and well set from factory, most advanced settings in BIOS can be left at default values (for simplicity sake), usually with the exception of just a few.
In very basic terms, I'd usually go at it like this....

...Go to memory settings, for which most times we enable "XMP" (so that the memory runs at the manufacturer recommended speeds, timings and voltages), though making sure the computer ran stable with it, before overclocking.

...CPU Base Clock (BCLK) left at "100" (same as stock)
...CPU Clock Ratio manually set for desired overclocking, for example "45" to run at 4.5GHz (change to more or less if increasing/decreasing the OC)
...CPU Vcore manually set to desired voltage, for example, try 1.355 initially, and raise up to 1.375v if necessary (if stability stress tests fail, but watch the temps)

...Then make sure that "turbo-boost" is disabled in the BIOS, to get more precise control over clock speed when overclocking, like you are now (really, it's worth only if on stock clocks, for single-threaded workloads). If "turbo-boost" is enabled, it may be the cause for the instability you mentioned.
The priority is to get the base clock (for all cores) higher on equal terms, without such spikes (for stability), hence it should be disabled for overclocking.

Lastly, some Z170 mobos (Gigabyte?) show the CPU Flex Ratio options, which control the non-turbo ratio the CPU will use. I prefer to not change these, but you may differ.
If you do, then check if there is a "CPU Flex Ratio Override" option. As said, I tend to leave it at "Disabled" but, again, you may wish to enable it (to set to what you want).
If so, you can then manually adjust the minimum non-turbo ratio the CPU will use, through the "CPU Flex Ratio Settings" (default value is "20", if I recall correctly). Some prefer to put the CPU Flex Ratio Settings to same as in the CPU Clock Ratio (so, always same multiplier).

Great advice, thanks for that. I've printed your reply out, and will see how high and stable I can clock the 6600K. You're never too old to learn, here I am at 64 years old learning how to clock my CPU to the max. My GPU is already overclocked from MSI, maybe I could squeeze a bit more out of that? Max temp is 72°C at the moment, how much could it take?, hehe
Now ya got me started

 

[GuitarTech]

Great advice, thanks for that. I've printed your reply out, and will see how high and stable I can clock the 6600K. You're never too old to learn, here I am at 64 years old learning how to clock my CPU to the max. My GPU is already overclocked from MSI, maybe I could squeeze a bit more out of that? Max temp is 72°C at the moment, how much could it take?, hehe
Now ya got me started

So, thanks to your expert help , my box is running at a stable 4.6Ghz Temp between 26°C at idle and 55°C in game ( ACC with every slider set at Epic, and Temporal AA selected.
Test scenario: Quick race with 20 opponents, medium rain. FPS between 55 (bunched up in the pack), and 75 (with the pack ahead / behind me ) I can live with that That's just about the worst case scenario: with sunny weather, I'm getting over 100fps, sometimes up to 120fps.
The only thing I don't understand is that the CPU is running 2°C cooler now, although I've cranked it up from 4.4Ghz up to 4.6Ghz and increased the voltage from stock up to 3.375v... Why ? How ?..
WTF, it works
Now for the GPU, but I need to get some more info on that one before I start adjusting any sliders in MSI Afterburner: it cost me €560 two months ago, and I don't want to fry it by doing something stupid..