details in feel (DD Drive Wheel) ?

[stigs2cousin]

Hy there,

I´ve been researching DD Wheels for three months now, but iI still have questions:

lots has been said/written about the "level of detail" modern DD Wheels can provide.

What I´m still curios about is the "feel of the road surface".

From my everyday car i´m used to feel the surface of the tarmac, feel the change in roughness and grip, feel the ruts in the road and if the tarmac changes even before the front tyres start sliding.
( Its a GT86 with good coilovers and an agressive alignment which was tuned for the Nordschleife)

My T300 clearly can´t provide that, many tracks and mods provide a very good look of the surface, but i can´t feel the
tarmac patch i can clearly see.
Same with the "rubber patches" used to seal cracks. ( i don´t know the correct English term, in german its "Bitumenstreifen")

IRL I can feel those in the front wheels of my car or a motorcycles front tyre.

So, can a good DD Wheel ( I´m thinking Simucube right now) deliver this kind of feedback?

Of course a test drive would be best, but that is not the only thing covid ****ed up for us this year.

I´d like to hear your opinions/ experiences on this matter,

MFG Carsten

 

[Ruttman98]

Carsten,

I can't help with DD wheel road feel, but I can tell you "bitumenstreifen"--literally "bitumen stripes" (thank you 3 1/2 years of high school German and Addidas!) would be called "expansion joints" in American English. I believe our British colinguists call asphalt and rubbery tar compounds "bitumen" because they are derived from bituminous coal.

Guten abend,
Chris

 

[Shovas]

Good question. This is the hardest thing to get right and I don't think it comes down to a DD vs non-DD wheel, I think it comes down to how the sim implements it. I'm using an AccuForce DD wheel.

I believe rF2 is the only sim where I've felt actual changes from tarmac to cobblestone to gravel, etc., where the effect didn't feel canned. And rF2 doesn't do this consistently. It's up to each track and track author to put it in. I believe it was a mod track where I felt it.

Lots of sims can reproduce the feeling of going over newly paved patches vs old pavement or concrete but it's more like a bump rather than a textured feeling that continues as you go over the surface of the different area.

I believe most sims could accomplish this but it requires a super detailed ffb mesh that I think is beyond what most are willing to put the effort into.

Furthermore, I believe even a G27 could reproduce a textured road feeling. I don't think it's a matter of DD vs non-DD when it comes to that kind of ffb. DDs bring a lot of other enhancements to the table that make it worth it.

However, the fidelity, response, detail reproduction, and more realistic strength are all positives of DD wheels. I would always recommend a DD wheel if you are anywhere in the neighbourhood price wise. People buying USD $700 Fanatec belt wheels make me cry.

 

[EsxPaul]

What I´m still curios about is the "feel of the road surface

So, can a good DD Wheel ( I´m thinking Simucube right now) deliver this kind of feedback?

The SC2 is more than capable of delivering those fine details. The problem we have is that there's a lot of variability with what each sim delivers to the base in terms of fine details.

I completely agree with the excellent description from @Shovas above

 

[jamescarruthers]

The Simucube without doubt can do that.

What is in doubt is whatever software you are using to drive it — which is the biggest limitation as above.

Just be aware that many buy DD because "realism" — and then spend forever hunting for it...

DD is really great, it adds another level of immersion — but it's not "real"

 

[Jan Larsen]

Every ffb wheel can deliver what you are after, some more than others (a G29 vs DD f.x.). A much more important aspect however is the software. In the wheel itself and most importantly, the game. If the game dosent model small bumps (like joints in the asphalt), it dosent matter which wheel you have.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

I make tracks for AC and use a TS-PC, and interestingly, the TS-PC is able to pick up on tarmac joints when they are around 10mm higher than the surrounding tarmac.

So, it might not even be down to the game's capabilities, but whether the track you are using has been designed with such fine details.

 

[blekenbleu]

IMO, depending only on the wheel for road surface feel is unrealistic, since e.g. in your GT86 much of that
is presumably felt thru the seat. An expedient for simulating that is SRS' ShakeSeat,
which then allows for e.g. understeer and oversteer to be felt more clearly thru the wheel, whether DD or not.
With tweaking, even a Logitech wheel can deliver road surface feel; the issue is a limited range of force feedback
compounded by lost motion of gear train or belt drive limits slew rate for abrupt haptics distinct from steering feedback.
Direct drive generally provides higher forces for low frequency steering feedback e.g. thru long high speed corners,
but even DD wheels with lower torque ratings can deliver usefully more high frequency energy from road irregularities.
I also agree that some Sim tracks provide much better road surface information than others,
which becomes more obvious when other tactile exciters are employed.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Thank you all for your answers.

@ blekenbleu:

i am quite certain that is not the case here.
Yes of course your inner ear sensor reacts to changes in vibration and g forces transmitted from the moving car mostly through the seat.
But the OEM seat of the GT86 has too much "dampening" aka upholstery to be that precise.

The clubcar, an e36 with containment seat and KW Clubsport suspension without any noise dampening on the surfaces of the body is much better at that.

But my GT86 communicates better through the wheel, you can feel the roughness and the ruts and ripples of the road BEFORE the g forces change.
So when I see a change in surface i can feel when the frontwheels hit it.
One can even feel that the front wheels are about to lock ( ABS to kick in)
That would be possible to simulate with butkicker or similar, but Im not ready to go down that route yet.


@Fat-Alfie:

thats helpfull, but disappointing.
I had really hoped that it would be possible to get a better roadfeel.
Guess I have to take the Lotus 49 down Deutschlandring again to check for road imperfections.
( Just kidding, I love that track)


@Jan Larsen:

can you help me out with some adjustments for the T300?
All I´ve managed up to now is to have general feel of under/oversteer and to not have it clip in every corner.

What values do I have to change to get a better roadfeel?

MFG Carsten

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

With Simucube2 Ultimate, I can feel the difference between new to old tarmac transition, Different Track surfaces, Painted surface, Soil, Grass, Wet, Damp, Rubbered, I can feel where the most grip is per corner.

Sebring can be like racing a Jack Hammer.

Logitech g27 when I did feel something, it was usually too late to correct it.

In RF2, the lower I go in game ffb, the more details I get, at around 65 at the moment.

J

 

[Shovas]

With Simucube2 Ultimate, I can feel the difference between new to old tarmac transition, Different Track surfaces, Painted surface, Soil, Grass, Wet, Damp, Rubbered, I can feel where the most grip is per corner.

What sims and car/track combos?

I'd like to try it out and see if I feel it.

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

@ Shovas,

Ferrari GT3 448 EVO, Official Tracks.

J

 

[Shovas]

Darn, don't have that car

 

[stigs2cousin]

So that is in RF2.

Do you have any experience in AC?

Thats the only Sim I drive in the moment.

MFG Carsten.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Look at FFBClip graph, if there is even smallest blip on the signal line, you will feel it. If signal is flat you don't feel anything, it cannot add anything on its own, think of it as a powerful power amp with high res speakers, you still need good source to make it sound its best.

 

[Shovas]

I just tried the rF2 M6 at Sebring, Ibarra, Imola, and Mosport and I can feel the transition on my AccuForce and I think I can feel some texture as I roll over the areas but it's so subtle. In real life it would be clearer. I'm guessing it could be emphasized more and it's just up to the track author.

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

@ 4stigs2cousin,

Hi, minimal experience in AC, I could not get the game to feel right no matter what, Put me off getting AC 2 to be honest.

J

 

[blekenbleu]

Do you have any experience in AC? Thats the only Sim I drive in the moment.

I use only AC.
For tuning with any car, I first start in Skidpad 0.5 to dial in basic understeer/oversteer,
then Clarksville figure 8 for gross track transitions. FFB tweaks are made using only
Content Manager>SETTINGS>FORCE FEEDBACK with neither Post-processing nor Experimental.

 

[stigs2cousin]

So, some news

after some real life driving tests I have to admit that @blekenbleu is more right than I care to admit.

I´ve tried with different cars and with my car with summer and winter tyres.

In normal responsible driving as expected on the road most of the feedback is indeed sound and vibration, the latter mostly in the footwell and gearlever, the seat doesn´t contribute much.

What i remembered ( dreamt of??) was a much more pronounced feedback through the wheel.
I think that was the case with my semi slicks ( Extreme performance tyres) which were much stiffer in the sidewall.
In the moment that can´t be tested because the weather doesn´t allow it ( and they are not on rims )

What the steering of course can communicate quite cleary is the nuances of grip n slip, in this state the change of surface or ruts and holes are quite clear.
( NO bystanders were frightened or harmed during these tests, I can do this kind of driving on company ground)

On the bright side with my SC2 which I mounted today the driving experience is much improved allready.
Though I´m still lost in the settings jungle and haven´t found the level of roadfeel i desire the driving feels much more natural now.
especially when the tyres start to slip in under/oversteer its just natural to hold the slip angel or correct if necessary.
The dreaded counterkick has not gotten me again because the rear "selfcenters" as I´m used to.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

What i remembered ( dreamt of??) was a much more pronounced feedback through the wheel.

For that, I dial as much caster and as little toe into my real cars as possible.
That may compromise geometry for ultimate grip,
but more feedback adds confidence when steering gets busy.
On cars with front struts, that often requires aftermarket parts and occasional grinding,
which is no problem in the U.S. but might be with TÜV..

the seat doesn´t contribute much.

After finding a racing seat that fit me well (an ancestor of the Momo START),
I moved it with me from car to car. Lacking natural talent,
I must be able to relax and feel as much via the seat as possible.
Also, sitting lower improves helmet clearance.