direct drive still not close to real thing

[Deleted member 963434]

My OSW is still better than my previous t500rs belt driven wheel. But i thought it be like real car driving, and i read somewhere with current technology it is still impossible cause how ffb works. i mean there are positive things abous DD over belt drive and those are
-yo not clippin
-yo dont have hardware center which yo feel even when wheel is turned off
-faster reaction and stronger forces, easier to catch slide
-more details feel
-more degrees of rotation, yo can even set unrealistic over 2000 degree
and i did not found any negative things compared to belt drive, even oscillations are less but it depend how yo set up yo wheel.

But i thought it be better and feel as i drive real car, like wheel would constantly matching front sim car wheels, and its not, cause i read thats how ffb works today. Todays sims instead of giving a wheel setpoint where it should go, it give em how much force to apply to get to that point, thats why we have oscillations then.
yo know what i mean? it should be 100% yo steering wheel connected to front wheels in sim car, and its not, when yo turnin right and yo sliding, yo rear end of car losing grip yo steering wheel shall immediately countersteer to the left, but in real car that happens cause yo front wheels countersteers and yo wheel goes with them. In sims even with direct drive, yo front wheels countersteers then sim telling yo steering wheel that it shall apply for example 10 nm to left to wheel go there and match where virtual car front wheels are, once wheel match them, it cuts force but wheel still have momentum of previous force and then sim tell yo wheel it shall go back to match them wheels and it apply like for example 5 nm to right cause it get to desired point and overshoot it, then it get back to left, and right etc, thats called oscillation.
Like they need to make better technology to sim tellin wheel where it should go and stay there, not how much force it should apply to get to desired point, then when it reach it and overshoot it, sim tellin wheel to go back

 

[Botmeister]

FFB in total is more than just the steering forces. If you want a step closer to reality you'll need a DOF system. With that you can offload certain FFB parts from the wheel to the motion system. Maybe that leaves a cleaner FFB from your direct drive? I have no motion, i do have a DD system.

 

[RichardHessels]

About all of half the racingcars you drive nowadays have some form of powersteering.
The feedback you feel from just the steeringwheel connected to the steeringcollumn to soft tires is a very dull signal. Not even half as informative as even the lesser racesims have.

Cars get driven with the combination of g-force and loads of other sensory inputs.
The bodypart that gives the most valuable feedback is actually your butt and brain, not your hands.

 

[cfischer9009]

About all of half the racingcars you drive nowadays have some form of powersteering.
The feedback you feel from just the steeringwheel connected to the steeringcollumn to soft tires is a very dull signal. Not even half as informative as even the lesser racesims have.

Cars get driven with the combination of g-force and loads of other sensory inputs.
The bodypart that gives the most valuable feedback is actually your butt and brain, not your hands.

Sounds like a good reason to build a g seat.

 

[blekenbleu]

Like they need to make better technology to sim tellin wheel where it should go and stay there

That is basically what games do for so-called AI.
It would remove responsibility for car positioning from drivers.

not how much force it should apply to get to desired point, then when it reach it and overshoot it, sim tellin wheel to go back

Most wheels sense only changes in wheel rotation, then generate motor control signals
based on calculations involving other simulation telemetry. Ideally, wheel bases could also sense torque, but control stability still depends on system gain and delay, given latency between wheel movement detection and calculated motor signals, then mechanical inertia,
but force with which a driver resists steering feedback will be inconsistent
and can only be approximated.

Better systems could "learn" how a specific user responds to wheel stimulations and attempt to compensate. Calibration depending on inertia of wheel mechanisms will be wrong when a user grasps the rim.

Just as people vary widely in their visual and hearing acuities, sim racers vary in their aptitude for adapting to differences between real and sim driving haptic cues. Some find motion rigs more immersive, while others consider them distracting, but getting some cues from other than steering wheel FFB allows that steering feedback to be more realistic. I use an SRS ShakeSeat based on that reasoning.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i think yo misundestood me a little, i not meant those forces imitating g-forces and weight transfers etc. i mean if car in real life makin drift, its both front wheels countersteers and steerin wheel follows them immediately 100% connected. and if car in sim drift front wheels countersteers and driver tell yo steerin wheel how much force it should apply to follow them both car front wheels, then it follows them, and if it reach that point where front wheels are/where steering wheel should be, it cuts force, but cause force is so high and not stops immediately, it goes over that point then driver tellin it to go back and applies another counterforce. i know how tey drive tey get a lot info from body g forces etc, but i mean if tey make ffb so its not working how much force to apply to steerin wheel match front wheels, but where steering wheel shall go to match them front wheels?

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i have very good setting right now, my best setting i set 20 nm in wheels driver an only 40 in gain in all my sims, force is smoooth, feels very realistic, i was using 60 gain a lot, then lowered to 50, it all was like weirds forces workin against me, now i set 40 gain and it most realistic i ever had. It is not so different when racing i feel almost like in real car, but i mean drifting, i can feel it oscillating, i know when yo drift in real car (i do some drift in abandoned airport) yo steering wheel follows front wheels so good, its so easy to catch slide , go from left drift to right drift etc. but if yo try to do same in sim its so hard, yo doin left drift must feel when catch a slide, then yo want to change to right drift and sim think like yo overspin other way instead of applying force to make right drift it applies force like yo released throttle and not countered wheel fast enought.

 

[blekenbleu]

I do not drift, but e.g. establish initial Assetto Corsa car balance using the Skidpad mod.
AccuForce wheel movements and feel seem from memory comparable to those in similar cars on real skid pads, except for getting just the right "lightening" or "floating" effects with increasing understeer or on grass. Catching slides for me depends more on substituting other cues for missing seat bolster pressures and acceleration forces acting on inner ears.

High wheel force feedback settings feel for me incongruous, in the context of no real G forces.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

here guy real racing told what he thinks abous OSW and there are 2 things i also noticed mostly

OSW and Real Racing Comparison - BoxThisLap.org

OpenSimWheel has been a true step forward regarding to immersion but many of us without real racing experience guessed from the beginning high end top configurations running 20 nm peaks would be unrealistic. I used my instinct, karting and MTB experience to find values that could match what I...

boxthislap.org

• Slides: not enough feed back as what the tires are doing.
• Steering is not this heavy in even factory built race cars when u get moving. So when u turn Torque up on the motor to get more communication, steering becomes incrementally heavy. Shouldn’t be. Steering becomes heavier in real race cars on loading the front or leaning in to turns not otherwise.

1. harder to catch slide than in real life, cause steering wheel is not always connected to front wheels in sim as it is in real car, otherwise it just making harder or weaker forces to tell yo yo sliding.
2. thing is yo want details yo must make bigger nm force, but then its harder the faster yo goin and harder yo turnin, that shall not be. if yo want have more realistic feel when turnin yo must lower ffb but then yo got no details.. devs and sim racers think if yo goin fast turnin wheel is hard and it becomes harder the more yo turing, thats not - it even becomes lighter but it keeps yo in direction yo want to go..

 

[Deleted member 963434]

also to add to 2 point, they even make otherwise as it shall be with "standing force" i know it may be to help weakest men to even start driving car, but thing is tey reducing ffb to zero when yo not goin, and it goes back and makes stronger when yo start driving.. it shall be otherwise, when yo standing it should be max ffb wheels hard to turn, and faster yo goin ffb is lighter thats how it shall be and its otherwise in all sims

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

*you

Anyway, I've always felt like there is more detail with the DD wheels I've tried compared to (race)cars I've driven. This is mostly due to slack and play in the real parts.
Furthermore, a lot comes down to how you've set up the wheel. I've seen a few setups at expo's where they had somehow managed to make a certain DD wheel feel more disconnected from the road than your average G27.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Their are limitations to what ffb can communicate in any SIM today (2020), no developers have found a way to mimic how the wheel feel, DD is the best at communicating what the FFB is saying which is not the same as what a wheel feel like when driving a real car. Compromise have to be made one way or the other way.
In my experience I have found very satisfactory results in simulating how a real car feel, by adding tactile. The goal is to let both tactile and ffb do what they do best, instead of trying to have FFB do everything. Even though it is still not like the real thing, it is very immersive. DD is very expensive, keeping a decent wheel and adding tactile is a better way to spend money and gives a better result. Yes, tactile and dd is even better if you can afford both.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i think it is possible to make better ffb , but developers dont know how make it?
i mean we have now choice to setup wheel with high nm force then there is pros and cons, pros are:
-we feel more details and feel more connected to road
-fell better and catchin slides better
but cons are:
- nm force gets bigger the more yo turnin wheel and at high speed and/or sharp turns there is so high nm force workin agains yo , yo would never feel such strong resistance in real life.
or we can set lower nm there is pros:
-when yo turnin at high speed / or into sharp turns resistance is realistic as yo would feel in real car
and cons:
-feels little disconnected (but it may be that yo feel connected when yo sittin in real car, yo not feel road by wheel in real car)
-slides not so easy to catch then (again as above yo not feel yo sliding by wheel only but wit whole body)
but my point is if tey manage to connect pros from both setups? i mean yo have high force when driving straight and feel connected, when yo slidin yo wheel countersteers wit high enough force to make easier for yo to catch slide, but when yo turnin at high speed and/or into sharp corner tis force lightens as in real car it is, the faster yo go the wheel works lighter, try drivin non power steering car yo see, yo cant turn wheel when standing, its hard to turn at lowe speeds but when yo goin fast yo can turn it one handed, i think sims do the opposite, when yo standing yo have not force, and faster yo go force becomes bigger, thats wrong

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i always suggest to buy DD if yo have money but only reason is its faster response than belt, and yo have no clippin when correctly set up. i first set my dd at 60 gain in all sims then i had 12 nm resistance when turnin , thats no realistic as i read somewhere race cars wit no power steering at peak gets to 4,5-6,5 nm resistance. then i set at 50 gain and 10 nm, then i lowered to 40 gain and 8 nm, now im still testing but i think i leave it at 30 gain in all my sims thats 6 nm resistance, it feel most realistic if i know track and know where i want to go, but if i slide i know catchin slide was easier at 60 gain and 12 nm. i wish tey made ffb to work so i have 30 gain 6 nm constant and when i slide it goe to 60 gain 12 nm, thats how tey should make it, but i think it may be hard to do. but i still suggest to get DD if one has money its faster response, more details, driving much easier than on belt, and if i had 60 gain i had so strong force and i was not clippin once, now i have 30 gain and i will never clip, wit my previous t500rs 4,4 nm peak force was lighter and i was clippin so much but never noticed it cause force was so light i only noticed clippin when lookin at app (as a beginner in AC i thought tis one clippin bar was a g force bar xD)

 

[rikirk]

@dario993 happy to read you came up with the same conclusion despite the main trend of going 100% available force in the DD wheel driver.

I'm mostly on Gt (ACC) and I was told the range of max output is between 9 and 12Nm and if fact I have to tweak the in game gain for each car, while using 42% of 26Nm force from the motor to match the average telemetry output.

I experimented everything and for ACC this is the best approach I've found.

Working my way through iR and not sure irffb is still valid today, at least when using Bodnar filters. But I definitely avoid full strength from the wheel because the signal spikes too harsh to properly mimicking a power steering systems.

On the other hand I see how the approach of higher values on the wheel driver and lower in game gain will be beneficial when simulating a go-kart or non assisted steering cars.

 

[Jens Roos]

One note here, around 5nm for non power steered race car is way to low. I have an race car with short steering ratio (540) and my 20nm DD wheel might be close to the real thing even if the actual steering wheel in car is 350 and my DD has 315mm.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

I'm mostly on Gt (ACC) and I was told the range of max output is between 9 and 12Nm and if fact I have to tweak the in game gain for each car, while using 42% of 26Nm force from the motor to match the average telemetry output.

howd yo get that info? i think 12 nm force (resistance i mean when turning wheel) is too much, i read even no power steering cars have between 4,5-6,5 nm resistance when turning, cause faster yo go turning becomes lighter, thats why its hard to turn wheel wit no power steering car at low speeds, but faster yo go yo cant feel difference between non power steering or power steering. i think 12 nm too much, tey already fighting g forces wit them bodies, and how could they turn them wheels so fast as we see at footages if tey be 12 nm? we can pretty easy but we sittin in our rooms and we not affected wit 2-3 g forces when turning. them wheels smooth and easy to turn yo can see footage how tey driving, even David Perell GT3 driver told in his streams they barely feel anything wit wheels, he uses thrustmaster tx or pc racer or something which have around 7 nm force but is belt driven, and he told it feels pretty same as real life, only biggest difference he told was them wheels shaking more on kerbs (and thats why we have dd to feel kerbs stronger) He even told in comment below his video , when somebody asked him how much nm tey feel in real life he said hes curious too and may ask his engineers if tey could put some sensor to dimension it, but that was long ago and i think he forgot about it cause he never answered xD But thing is, iv tey put such sensor i think tey shall separate resistance forces from kerbs forces,. as i told current technology is still too primitive, tey may gain data from this sensor which tell that tey have like 7 nm resistance , but i believe if tey goin over kerb sensor would put out around 40 nm or more, just it will be 40 nm half inch wheel travel, cause them steering wheels 100% connected to front wheels and all force from front wheels hitting kerb would go to steering wheel but it will not oscilate it will be just half inch travel but at very high nm force.
tey need to make new ffb where steering wheel is 100% connected to front wheels, then all settings gone only seting will be overall wheel weight (i mean resistance how hard is to turn wheel) then we have all forces straight from front car wheels and no settings needed and it will not oscilate anymore, i mean we would have then 6 nm resistance, or 4 nm resistance or 12 nm how one set up, but if we would go on kerbs it could go at max our wheel output thats 20 nm for me and 26 nm for you, but it will be just 20 nm force and wheel travel to half inch right and left but with no oscillation as steerin wheel is 100% connected to front wheels, and front wheens not oscillate in real car xD

 

[Deleted member 963434]

no way tey have 12 nm resistance and i say tey not have max 12 force affecting them wheels, i tell tey have like 7 nm resistance max and forces affecting them wheels would be 40 or more nm when goin over kerbs and when crashing even more than 100 nm.
i read somewhere somebody told indycars wit no power steering have like 25-30 nm no way tey could drive wit such force more than hour. i was at gokarts and my organoleptic senses tell me go karts resistance around 15 nm and yo drive 30 minutes and yo have soreness next day xD
no way indycar has 25 nm maybe tey put such sensor at them wheels but as i told tey no goin over kerbs tey just drive straight so maybe 25 nm was force from road surface it was like half inch travel at force of 25 nm when driving straight at road uneveness but im sure wheel resistance (how much yo strength it gets to turn wheel) would be below 7 nm

 

[Deleted member 963434]

im using now 33 gain which it 6,6 nm and i feel it best force for now. as i mentioned earlies when i first connected wheel i go 20 nm but fast i lowered to 60 gain, then long i play at 60 adn lowered to 50, then lowered to 40 was not sure abous it cause catchn slides become harder, but then again at gain 50 % sims was like cheating me into slides, im mean i was not sliding but felt car sliding at such high force i must hold wheel strong for car to not countersteer, now i have set gain at 33% and i only notice slight sliding force but i can hold wheel light and it not trying to take off my hands so i feel its setting most realistic. also tey feel slides more by body than wheel in real life thats another reason why low force is more realistic, only con is that if tey go sliding in real life wheel countersteers itself much better than in sims, cause i have set max force at 6,6 nm (thats my max force and resistance force cause today technology only allows such setting, i wish i could have 6,6 nm resistance and full 20 nm as countersteering force when i actually slide) if i go slide i see in telemetry app it go to 12 nm, but i think its still not much as in real life it can even countersteer wit force of more than 30 nm , but it countersteering that fast and strong cause wheels and steering wheel is always 100% connected , but resistance is all the same between 4-7 nm. but current technology not allows us to have same forces as in real life, yo eitcher set lower force more realistic, then yo car not countersteer as it should, or yo set high unrealistic force, then yo feel car better, but it tricks yo into oversteer when yo not oversteering actually, but if yo oversteer then to catch slide is easier cause wheel go faster than on lower gain. thats how i see it

 

[Deleted member 963434]

i have set 33% gain in all my sims but i all depends on sim ffb and physics. i mean ACC feels like perfect most realistic feel, AC feels like have better countersteering forces than ACC, but then it is little weird understeer effect in some cars, and in terms of physics tyres get too hot after latest update at tyre model 10, i remember before at tyre model 3 or 5 yo cant get tyre to optimal temp if yo not drove like alien. in AMS2 its dull at center like big dead zone i can only disable by increasing low force boost, but then i feel too hard center not unrealistic like i felt wit my previous t500rs which had hardware center. in pCARS2 countersteer force work not good, like it just putting max torque all the way to left or right and yo must be lucky to catch it good xD and in iceRacing i dont know if its ffb bad or physics bad, i mean im driving nascar go high speed and suddently i spin i dont know even why? its 2010s or newer RACE car has wide slicks and i go long straight i turn in and i go sideways , ffb not tellin me nothin not countersteer fast or strong enought, but even if this car should not even spin at such conditions them cars glued to road