Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[jimortality]

What's sandbagging?

 

[Lars Hansen]

What's sandbagging?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbagging

 

[jimortality]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbagging

Ah right, I don't sandbag lol!

 

[UMC 22]

This is something which has been on my mind for a while now because I actually agree with what Lars is saying. When I first noticed it happening it was fairly rare and probably not worth worrying about, but it seems to be happening much more frequently now so I think it needs to be addressed. We do have some very fast drivers that are able to carve their way through the field in the space of a single race. I'm sure that doing so is great fun for them and, as Lars said, their stream viewers. However, it can and does cause issues which I'm not particularly happy about.

For starters it puts a great deal of unnecessary pressure on other drivers. Defending from someone of similar pace is one thing, but having a car so fast that it's constantly sitting on your rear bumper desperate to get by is very different. I feel pressured by this myself and I'm a seasoned racer, so for those new to our club it must be a nightmare. You're left with two choices... attempt a futile defence and likely end up over-driving yourself right off the track, or compromise yourself by going off-line and/or slowing down to let them by. People shouldn't be put in that position unless they're being lapped.

The difference in pace also means that overtakes are attempted in unusual and unsafe places, drastically increasing the chances of an incident. We may have rules designed to try and limit the impact of any incidents, but that doesn't mean that it's ok to knowingly increase the chances of an incident occurring. Golden Rule or not, it's still no fun to be bumped off the track.

The long and short of it is that this practice is only fun for the person doing it and for those watching who are not even in the race itself. The club races may be for relaxed fun, but that doesn't mean people can do what they like at the detriment of other participant's enjoyment. I'll be discussing this with the rest of the management team and potentially looking at a ban on the practice.

 

[GuitarTech]

Ah right, I don't sandbag lol!

It's also very popular in real motor sport, especially in qualifying. ( See Le Mans or F1, the two most blatant examples, but it's prevalent in all forms of motor sport. The more money that's involved, the more popular it becomes.... )

 

[jimortality]

It's also very popular in real motor sport, especially in qualifying. ( See Le Mans or F1, the two most blatant examples, but it's prevalent in all forms of motor sport. The more money that's involved, the more popular it becomes.... )

Really? I don't see Lewis sandbagging in his Mercedes.

 

[GuitarTech]

Really? I don't see Lewis sandbagging in his Mercedes.

Maybe not in Q3, but look at what Mercedes and others often do in free practice, and what all teams do when testing in public...

 

[UMC 22]

Maybe not in Q3, but look at what Mercedes and others often do in free practice, and what all teams do when testing in public...

We're not talking about qualifying in professional racing guys. We're talking about people deliberately not bothering to qualify at all so that they start from the back of the grid in our club races. There's no money and nobody to "fool", they do it so that they can hammer though the field during the race. As Lars said, great for them and their viewers, not so great for the rest of the people actually taking part in the race.

 

[GuitarTech]

Ah...ok

 

[Case_]

It's sometimes fairly obvious some of the fast guys can be quite bored in the club races, sadly. I think this is one way they try to avoid it.

And to be honest, while I don't like sandbagging, I still prefer it to the fast guys being visibly annoyed with us slower ones, sometimes apparently to the point of expecting us to move out of their way.

 

[UMC 22]

And to be honest, while I don't like sandbagging, I still prefer it to the fast guys being visibly annoyed with us slower ones, sometimes apparently to the point of expecting us to move out of their way.

That's the problem, they get up the rear of us "slow" drivers and often do bully us out of their way, compromising our races in the process.

 

[Case_]

Not in my experience. We're mostly talking two different group of people here. I mean the sandbaggers can be a bit too eager to get in front as fast as possible and sometimes indeed increase the risk of incidents unintentionally, but the "annoyed" ones tend to be those who start in the front and either lap us or end up behind us because of some incident or something like that.

 

[UMC 22]

Well in my experience they do bully, which is why this issue has been on my mind for some time. I know fast drivers lapping and coming from behind after an off is often an issue, but there's not much we can do about that because it's part of racing. But we can stop people from "sandbagging" because it's entirely intentional, and is not a normal part of racing.

Given the influx of new drivers we've experienced in the R3E club over the last couple of months, this kind of issue does need to be examined because it can and does put people off. One of the reasons we got rid of reversed grids across RD was because it put slow drivers in front of fast ones which resulted in pressure, impatience and incidents. Sandbagging does exactly the same thing.

 

[Case_]

One of the reasons we got rid of reversed grids across RD was because it put slow drivers in front of fast ones which resulted in pressure, impatience and incidents.

Oh yeah, the reverse grid. I'll be honest - pretty much since that "no random grid" rule was implemented, I've been regretting ever mentioning my once strong dislike for reverse grid races and therefore likely playing a (however small) part in the subsequent decision to disallow them completely. Because I've since come to realize the reverse grid races don't always have to go the way they tended to go in R3E at the time (which was my only experience with them), they can actually be fun and people actually can be considerate if you're a slow guy who suddenly finds himself in the front. It wasn't about the reverse grid at all and I was mistaken in believing it was. It was about the people, as always, and I'm sorry reverse grid races are no longer allowed at all, since as long as people are considerate, they're an interesting and valuable experience.

And I have a feeling it's a very similar case now with the opinions on sandbagging - that attempts at regulating it will again only be treating the symptom, not the real problem(s).

 

[UMC 22]

I'll be honest - pretty much since that "no random grid" rule was implemented, I've been regretting ever mentioning my once strong dislike for reverse grid races and therefore likely playing a (however small) part in the subsequent decision to disallow them completely.

Relax, you had no part in it at all. Reverse grids were a source of contention for a long time and the R3E club had no part in their eventual removal from our clubs whatsoever. It was part of the RD clubs overhaul during the Summer, along with a myriad of other changes.

As for the rest of what you said, I agree entirely that this problem is most often caused by people, not the mechanic being used. However, the same can be said for almost everything. If people could always be trusted to do the right thing and be considerate of others, there would be no need for any guidelines whatsoever. Unfortunately that isn't the case, so rules are needed to a) cater for the worst case scenario, and b) ensure a good experience for the majority, not the minority.

And I have a feeling it's a very similar case now with the opinions on sandbagging - that attempts at regulating it will again only be treating the symptom, not the real problem(s).

Yes well, we simply don't have the time or resources to sit people down and attempt to teach them how to be considerate of others. I'm sure you already see and hear the effort we staff put in to try and make people think about what they're doing, and yet 30 seconds later we still have people dive-bombing into T1 in an attempt to win races on the first lap. Unfortunately the only avenue really open to us is to make a rule, and penalise those that break it.

Oh, and it works. The lack of incident reports recently is testament to that.

 

[jimortality]

Not just sandbagging but generally being bullied off the track is one of the reasons I've stopped racing in the club races.

 

[Kurupt CDN]

Is No Quali Sandbagging gonna become the next club rule added? Lol

My .02.
I was under the assumption club races were for fun, practicing racecraft and helping out others?
So why should it matter if someone chooses to qualify or not? Leagues are for serious racing!

The whole pressure/bully/arrogant good for youtube viewers thing is lame if you ask me.
I am pretty sure the fast guys don't change there racing style when trying to pass a slow or fast driver and use the same pressure.
Racing is about chasing down the guy in front of you or defending your position while handling the constant pressure.
Instead of getting upset when someone does this, why not try and watch and learn from the fast guys to see how and where they set up there passes, if and when they do pass you get a chance to follow their line for a bit and take some tips.

I am no alien by any means nor the slowest....mid packer at best
When I raced here, I use to not qualify for several reasons...
1. I would usually get into the lobby pretty late with little to no practice and didn't want to get in anyone's way.
2. I got tired of being punted or taken out.
If there was no apology I guess you could call me a bully as I would take a name & number, chase them down if I could then ride their ass for a few laps hoping for them to buckle under pressure and make a mistake
3. Since club races were for fun I use to enjoy starting from the rear as it gave me a chance to race with guys I usually wouldn't and would allow me to observe there driving style and learn their tendencies.
4. As I am not an alien it gave me a chance to try and fight through the field to help me get comfortable and practice my racecraft.
A lot of races by mid race I usually found myself racing alone in no man's land as I was too slow to keep up with leaders and slightly faster than the backmarkers.

How will anyone ever improve there skill if they're afraid of a faster guy behind them?

Edit: so my comment doesn't get taken the wrong way.... I see no harm in a fast person starting at the rear and working there way through cleanly....but if there pushing there way through it becomes an issue that needs to be dealt with.

 

[Deleted member 387850]

This is a really interesting discussion because, being unable to race last night, I watched one such live stream. And I have to admit, it was very entertaining to watch! However, I felt quite uncomfortable watching it for all the reasons Lars and Ross have highlighted.

Just a couple of races ago I was in a similar situation and really felt the pressure of having someone coming through the field on my rear bumper for a couple of laps. I didn’t know at the time they’d started from the back of the field and to be honest if I did I’d probably have just moved over and spared myself the stress.

To me it does seem contrary to the friendly club racing ethos, and whilst I’m fairly sure the individuals involved mean absolutely no disrespect whatsoever to the other drivers, for me personally I did find it disheartening at the very least.

One thing I think worth clarifying is the term “sand bagging”. Sand bagging is a legitimate strategy in motorsport to hide your true race pace. It usually involves someone being a few places of pole, not starting at the back. It’s gamesmanship and it’s certainly not done for entertainment value. By comparison, deliberately starting at the back by not setting a time seems somewhat unsporting to me.

 

[UMC 22]

Edit: so my comment doesn't get taken the wrong way.... I see no harm in a fast person starting at the rear and working there way through cleanly....but if there pushing there way through it becomes an issue that needs to be dealt with.

This is what I addressed above. If everybody could be trusted to do things the best way then there would of course be little need to have any rules. Unfortunately people don't always do things the best way, they do them their way and it often has a negative affect on others. You're right, the clubs are supposed to be fun, but that means fun for everybody, not the individual. If everybody isn't possible then it's got to be the majority at least, not the few.

Our clubs are also for veterans and newbies alike, and the single biggest barrier for most newbies right now is the feeling that they're getting in people's way because they're not fast enough. This kind of thing (along with reverse grids) compounds that problem. We've even had people try our clubs and not come back because of it, and I don't think that's fair for the sake of a few veterans to have their fun.