Ferrari SF-70H Driving Style & Tips

[TheMaroon47]

Anyone have any tips on driving or setup for the SF-70H? Feels like I'm doing something wrong when I'm driving it, but nothing that's truly noticeable, likely me just being nitpicky on my own driving style. The car slides mid-corner sometimes but that's likely due to a lack of downforce (not enough downforce anyway). Anything anyone's got with driving this beast would be appreciated

 

[BhZ]

think Mr Deep is trying to explain an anomaly within sim racing that does not exists in the real world
whilst every one else talks relative to the real world.

Nope. Mr Deap is convinced that the real world and the simracing world are so different that are actually needed different techniques to go fast. He also focuses way too much on the theory to the point that he is unable to produce competitive laptimes. I have teammates that can go easily 1 second faster then me. Their ability on understanding what the car is doing and what it needs to be faster is incredible. They don't focus too much on "the rules of driving" as much as mr deap does. They simply know what has to be done as a general rule and then just test and see how much they can push. Just to make an example, trailbraking depends a lot on the setup (which doesn't mean it doesn't require the driver's ability). A highly oversteery setup, maybe with low coast will struggle a lot with trailbraking, no matter what the driver inputs are. This is to show that braking and turning don't have to be syncronized, but it's just a matter of what the car can do and then it's up to the driver to find that limit.
To conclude, theory is not the only thing needed to go fast and i've never heard of "syncronization" regarding driver input. I'm sure it happens to some extent, but it's more of a natural thing rather than a constant focus on how to do it.

 

[Mr Deap]

The rest of us have to work hard to search it out from within ourselves, by making
sure we maximize what we can maximize on the virtual race track.

If I wouldn't post, it would have took forever. I have very high focus to reduce the learning curve.

I wouldn't say the AC is that much difficult, but confusing for player new at the game. Although with correct method the lap time is greatly reduced without much effort.

To conclude, theory is not the only thing needed to go fast and i've never heard of "syncronization" regarding driver input. I'm sure it happens to some extent, but it's more of a natural thing rather than a constant focus on how to do it.

I'm a high believer that many players who chose to play AC already has the practical skill, but can't improve due to improper theoretical skill. It is quite fascinating in many way, especially when the thread is about a specific thing. I can't even describe what that feels like.

 

[Kek700]

I agree with what you have said.

I am pretty convinced at the moment that there are subtle difference between real world and
the sim world It may be just a physiological, but with the problem that if you have that talent
you can never explain it properly, and people make statement based on that ability and
obviously back it up with their performance and you cannot really criticize that.

It is very easy but long winded for me to refine my times by 5 tenths, but not so easy to find 2 seconds then refine that by 2 or 3 tenths.

I asumed Mr Deep was attempting to try and define it.


I have always argued that there is little difference between racing a car in the real world
and the sim world , just that you are robbed of some sensations, some for the better some
for the worse.

 

[Kek700]

That post was meant for Bhz

 

[BhZ]

I'm a high believer that many players who chose to play AC already has the practical skill, but can't improve due to improper theoretical skill.

I agree with you on this. I will add that some people don't practice enough or don't practice the correct way. I had the chance to give some advice to some drivers and some of them improved by 2 seconds with very little things. Sometimes it's just the ability to know what you have to do. @RasmusP can confirm this. He has the ability to be in the top4-5 regularly, but sometimes he just needs a couple of indications to really go fast. To quote him "it's incredible how bhz knows already what to do Without anyone telling him". I think the same thing about my teammates and i'm sure there are people that say this about rasmus.

 

[RasmusP]

Short thing about the term "in sync". I don't mean it like "10% steering at 90% pedal" or something. I'll try to post a few screenshots comparing MY telemetry to BhZ's telemetry. It's with the BMW 235i racing so you'll end up a bit drifty either way. F1 car telemetry should look a bit different...
Anyway:
BhZ:
- 100% braking while beginning to turn in
- releasing the brake to make the car turn, slowly decreasing until the maximum steering angle is reached. Moving on the edge of the tension circle basically
- the moment the steering angle gets decreased, raising the throttle.
- keeping the throttle below 100% to make the slight right hander too

Mine: (differences)
- decreasing the brake slower, not giving the front tyres enough headroom for the lateral forces. Inducing understeer
- more time spend "rolling"
- raising the throttle too fast and too late, resulting in a less stable car and a little oversteer
- in general mine looks cleaner but it's slower. Steering isn't reacting fast enough and the time you don't brake or accelerate is basically lost time in most occasions

Time lost during these 7.5 seconds btw: 0.1s
And here's the comparison where you can see the differences. BhZ's is coloured, mine's white:

Differences in this comparison:
- the crosses are perfectly overlayed, hence switched to "distance" instead of "time" in the lap
- BhZ braking earlier
- holding 100% brake a little longer
- releasing faster
- turning a little bit more
- going way earlier back on throttle, due to the more steering and more aggressive brake release the car rotated better and is already in "exit position"
- be able to take a tighter line through the right hander
- not instantly going up to 100% throttle tough to keep it stable
- faster response to the oversteer at corner exit and therefore losing less speed

It's not much time I lost there, only 1 tenth but adding it up over a full lap, it makes the 1-2 full seconds difference.
I hope throwing clear telemetry data in here can solve a few misunderstandings.

Now before posting the videos about grip-stuff: as you can see the G-map shows where I lost the time. BhZ was able to move the hook a bit further to the outside in comparison, getting closer to the limit.

And finally:

 

[Kek700]

thanks for that Rasmus, possibly the best practical demonstration i have seen on racedepartment.

To me if i have got it right you seem to be twisting the slip angle in the tread prior to loading the slip angle
up with the increased lateral load and what will become falling braking load rather than waiting for the slip angle to build up whilst still having a proportion of grip and braking.. probably a load of .

but probably a good start for a discussion

 

[RasmusP]

thanks for that Rasmus, possibly the best practical demonstration i have seen on racedepartment.

To me if i have got it right you seem to be twisting the slip angle in the tread prior to loading the slip angle
up with the increased lateral load and what will become falling braking load rather than waiting for the slip angle to build up whilst still having a proportion of grip and braking.. probably a load of .

but probably a good start for a discussion

Thanks. I hope it helps

Now I'm not a native speaker of English but I think most things I do understand.
But I really can't figure out what you wanna say with that massive sentence
"Twisting the slip angle:" You mean my transition from longitudinal to lateral isn't smooth enough so I overload the tyre and go off the traction circle?
Also I don't really understand what you mean with "lateral load will become falling braking load". Maybe you can clarify this a little?

In the end the difference from sim racing to real life is that the physics have difficulties with blending into each other so the tyre won't bend/twist/scrub etc. like irl and also the chassis won't bend as irl.
The traction circle however is simulated pretty much spot on as it's basically just a grip calculation with multiple inputs (longitudinal, vertical, lateral and a multiplier for wear etc.).
So when we talk about things like "trail braking is different in rF2 compared to AC and compared to real life", then it means that the inputs you need to ride on the edge of the traction circle will differ a little bit but not much.
It's not like you would have to "drive differently". It's more like it will "feel differently". Mostly it's the transition from longitudinal to lateral load that's a bit different as the tyre-bending-physics are different.
When you're fast in one sim, you'll be fast in the others. It's a matter of some practice to adjust the feeling but you don't actually need to adjust your driving!

The next question then is:
How do you get the car to ride on that edge of the traction circle and what can you do regarding setup. That's why I personally disagree with sayings like "Each driver needs a different setup that suits his driving style".
There is ONE perfect way of maximizing what the car is capable of and the setup to maximize the car's performance differs from track to track.
Sure, if you can't reach the limit in a certain car it makes sense to adjust the car to suit you better while it loses maximum performance. The combination of you+car will be faster but that's all.
So the better the drivers are, the less the setup will differ.

I like to use BhZ's setups as they force me to learn how to drive the car and tell you what: for the BMW 235i that is the default setup

 

[Kek700]

You have answered this above, but I will give a better explanation anyway.

Just to explain, the rubber of the tyre is fixed to the road, assuming constant grip from the road surface.
The soft layer of tread is flowing away from the less flexible part of the tyre.
Let's say 6 deg, this is taking up the full front load of the car equally between the two front Tyre's
You start to put a steering angle into the two front Tyres, ( for the case of this argument both Tyres have
equal load ) . ( you are on the edge of the traction circle)
But the tyre is fully loaded and has no lateral grip to give, so as far as I can see the rubber will
have to twist to accommodate the steering angle.
This to me suggests that as you start to release the brake the movement of the free tread
on the tyre is already creating the best slip angle to accommodate lateral grip.
( ignoring toe )
At the moment I cannot see an advantage other than time to transition being saved.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

To me if i have got it right you seem to be twisting the slip angle in the tread prior to loading the slip angle

Let's say 6 deg, this is taking up the full front load of the car equally between the two front Tyre's. You start to put a steering angle into the two front Tyres (...)
But the tyre is fully loaded and has no lateral grip to give, so as far as I can see the rubber will
have to twist to accommodate the steering angle.

I think you are missing the fact that contact path is constantly renewing - each milisecond it's formed from rubber that was not touching the ground previously. So within the timeframe that a given part of the tyre is on the ground, when we steer, it won't twist by more than ~0.01 of a degree, which is negligible.
Moreover, the surface rubber that's in front of the tyre is free so it cannot "preload" the twist, it has no knowledge of what the car is doing prior to actually sticking to the ground and start being pulled in some direction by the wheel. Then at some point (based on slip angle and slip ratio) it will start to slip over the ground slowly returning to it's resting place as the load on it decreases from the wheel turning. And unless we are almost stationary the pull direction and slip movement can be considered as linear - so no twisting is occurring.

 

[Kek700]

Many thanks for that description, seems so obvious now.

 

[Kek700]

I would like to thank "all" the contributors to this article

I have been struggling with this topic for about 8 months now unsuccessfully.
I have read all "this" forums words,videos, and graphs 3 times over.
I now understand what It needs to create faster lap times, something that has been
somewhat of a mystery to me.
The only problem maybe implementation, not that I am at all interested in being
a front runner.
I also apologize for some of my knob like statements
but sometimes the only way to learn is to stick your head
above the parapet.
So again many thanks guys

 

[Mr Deap]

It's not like you would have to "drive differently". It's more like it will "feel differently". Mostly it's the transition from longitudinal to lateral load that's a bit different as the tyre-bending-physics are different.
When you're fast in one sim, you'll be fast in the others. It's a matter of some practice to adjust the feeling but you don't actually need to adjust your driving!

It will work, but only if you insert the theoretical skill. The practical skillset is about the same minus the physical ability. Although in my opinion, the input is different enough to make someone being confused. I've seen enough real racecar pro driver on YouTube being over 4sec off pace to WR at the game to point it more as an evidence.

With the correct pointers they might be close to the veterans with little to no practice, but somewhat still not compete, because their brains says no at the finer detail. Not everything is simulated to perfection, which is comprehensible.

I truly don't undertand what these racing games base their steering models on. I feel like the dev "****..." only just read what driving was like and attempted to base handling and steering on what they read that driving was like.

It's quite what it is, since simulation is not real life. You end up with false negative review, when the base handing feel like how it drive like when it is the true purpose of a racing simulator.

When the practical skillset is average & the theoretical is not in use... the result is quite disastrous.

 

[RasmusP]

I kinda agree with what you say. But let's not forget that there is also a big difference in how well the driver can adapt from the full immersion in real life to sitting in front of a PC.
For example it's a big difference whether you put a real racedriver in VR with a motion platform, direct drive and heusinkveld pedals or give him a 24" 60hz monitor and a g27 and don't optimize any settings.
Friend of my girlfriend tried to drive with my setup. 27", 60hz, g27 and an office chair. She couldn't even stay on the tarmac because it was so immersion breaking for her and she couldn't imagine where the track etc was.
Never seen that before

Also let's not forget that real drivers might drive like irl in a sim whereas others drive like they would die every second day in a real car.
Also the world records might be people who drive over 1k laps at one track and can only be fast with one car at one track. Similar to how gamepad users can beat the times of wheel users but there are situations that are uncontrollable with a gamepad.

So my point is: real racedrivers can be stupid people too and I also agree that for me the road cars in AC feel very floaty but then the 150 kph feel like 50 kph so there's the explanation for that. If your brain can't simulate/transform the missing feel of 100 kph it will lead to statements like "it feels like crap".