FFB Question

[lemonbrahz]

Hey guys, just a general/noob question about FFB. I just got AMS and instantly the FFB felt great on the Pure 360hz setting with my G25. Only thing is that I dont feel ANYTHING that tells me the rear wheels are spinning making it pretty difficult to catch any sort of accidental power oversteer. Is this how the FFB is meant to be? I've only had experience with AC for a year or two where I did the LUT file for the FFB and looked up some tutorials here on how to setup the FFB for a G25/7. Also recently used a tutorial/FFB setting file on RD for the FFB in PCars2 (i had the same issue with PCars2, where I couldn't feel anything to tell me the rear of the car was coming loose) but the new settings I'm using feel a lot closer to how my FFB is in AC.

ALL other aspects of the FFB in AMS is amazing and felt "right" straight from the start.
Thank you, and sorry if this is a very novice question, but I couldn't really find any answers. Thanks again!

 

[Marc Collins]

Check the minimum force setting...see what other Logi owners recommend. Not sure what forces you are expecting to feel? I can certainly feel the rear-end break loose and very progressively depending on the car...using only default FFB.

You are on the right track by using Pure 360, though. I wouldn't fiddle with the Realfeel settings except as a last resort. Much better to try to get the basic set-up working for your wheel.

Last comment, the FFB in AMS will not feel like AC or PC 2. It is better and more realistic in my opinion, but not the same. You may prefer another. Once you get it dialed-in, most people concur that it is the consistently best FFB in sim racing.

 

[Heitor Facuri Cicoti]

I have a G27, and use FFB strength at 70% with Low Force Boost at 80%. But my main clue for wheel spinning is the engine sound. Pitch raising without car speed increasing = ease on the throttle.

 

[Marc Collins]

I have a G27, and use FFB strength at 70% with Low Force Boost at 80%. But my main clue for wheel spinning is the engine sound. Pitch raising without car speed increasing = ease on the throttle.

But can you not feel the rear losing grip through the wheel, too?

 

[lemonbrahz]

Check the minimum force setting...see what other Logi owners recommend. Not sure what forces you are expecting to feel? I can certainly feel the rear-end break loose and very progressively depending on the car...using only default FFB.

You are on the right track by using Pure 360, though. I wouldn't fiddle with the Realfeel settings except as a last resort. Much better to try to get the basic set-up working for your wheel.

Last comment, the FFB in AMS will not feel like AC or PC 2. It is better and more realistic in my opinion, but not the same. You may prefer another. Once you get it dialed-in, most people concur that it is the consistently best FFB in sim racing.

thanks for the reply. I've been playing more and more AMS and have my FFB set at -100% and low force boost on 80%. And as for what I was expecting to feel, was just a little bit of FFB from the wheel when the rear wheels are spinning (might not be the most realistic compared to a real car) but for example. If I do a standing burnout I don't have any feel in the wheel at all. Maybe it really is time to upgrade to Thrustmaster or Fanatec...

 

[RasmusP]

What exactly are you looking for?
Something like the "slip effect" in Assetto Corsa where you'll get a vibration into the wheel when:
- rear wheels spin (or front wheels in a FWD car)
- car starts to slide
- you lock up without abs

In a real car you don't feel these in your wheel, you feel them via g-force vs rest of the car.
When the rear wheels spin the steering stays straight. At least for quite a while until the car starts to rotate. Only way to get this in a sim is to look at the speed and see that the engine revs higher without your car going forward.
But that's really difficult to spot with a single screen setup!

Same for locking up the tyres. You will only feel that the steering goes muddy and spongy and the g-forces not matching you brake pedal inputs.
In a sim, you only have the muddy wheel to spot it, and smoke/rubber in the mirrors or standing still wheels in an open wheeler.

You will feel the fine nuances better with a more expensive wheel. I went from a G27 to a csw 2.5 in January and the biggest difference is that you can feel the "load" on the tyres a lot clearer, helping massively with controlling and feeling the weight shifting.
But it still won't give you the desired vibration-effect for things that simply aren't on a real steering rod.

So while it is possible to learn to feel and spot wheel spin, slip etc in AMS, activating a slip-effect would be the solution for you I think.
I'm not that familiar with the AMS settings but I've found this:

RealFeelPlugin.ini:
- FrontGripEffect=0.000000 might be better at 0.200000 (range 0 to 1).
It reduces all forces when the front tyres lose grip. Locking up, understeer etc.
Link:
https://forum.reizastudios.com/thre...-works-and-what-is-new-about-it.45/#post-3252

If you look into:
Steam\AMS\UserData\Controller
You'll find "LogitechG27.ini".
There, the default is:
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.

But that's just a preset.
The real settings, that are actually active are in the "Controller.ini" in the UserData\%YourName\ folder.

Scroll down to [ Force Feedback ] and check if the effects are on or not. I have no real clue about what is doing what but the comments in each line should make it clear.
Apparently the in game options set these settings to active or inactive OR let them be active but set the effect parameters to 0. No idea sadly...

Quoting from post 1 in the linked AMS thread:
"Part1: 'fake' effects
- LOW (now PURE 360 hz): Realfeel forces only
- PURE 180 hz: Realfeel forces only, but at half the rate
- MEDIUM (now PURE + EFFECTS 1): + damping, friction, kerb 'pull', kerb 'shake', jolts from impacts at 180 hz
- HIGH (now PURE + EFFECTS 2): +brake pedal steering vibration, at 180hz
- FULL (now PURE + EFFECTS 3): + engine RPM vibration, car speed vibration, at 180hz."

Looking into the Userdata\%userName%\Controller.ini:
FFB Effects Level="1" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
I guess you should put this to "5" and go through all the lines and active everything that has something in the name with throttle and brake.


Make a backup before fiddling with all this and since I never did this myself, you should be careful and probably read more about it first. But I wanted to give you some input before you give up

 

[lemonbrahz]

What exactly are you looking for?
Something like the "slip effect" in Assetto Corsa where you'll get a vibration into the wheel when:
- rear wheels spin (or front wheels in a FWD car)
- car starts to slide
- you lock up without abs

In a real car you don't feel these in your wheel, you feel them via g-force vs rest of the car.
When the rear wheels spin the steering stays straight. At least for quite a while until the car starts to rotate. Only way to get this in a sim is to look at the speed and see that the engine revs higher without your car going forward.
But that's really difficult to spot with a single screen setup!

Same for locking up the tyres. You will only feel that the steering goes muddy and spongy and the g-forces not matching you brake pedal inputs.
In a sim, you only have the muddy wheel to spot it, and smoke/rubber in the mirrors or standing still wheels in an open wheeler.

You will feel the fine nuances better with a more expensive wheel. I went from a G27 to a csw 2.5 in January and the biggest difference is that you can feel the "load" on the tyres a lot clearer, helping massively with controlling and feeling the weight shifting.
But it still won't give you the desired vibration-effect for things that simply aren't on a real steering rod.

So while it is possible to learn to feel and spot wheel spin, slip etc in AMS, activating a slip-effect would be the solution for you I think.
I'm not that familiar with the AMS settings but I've found this:

RealFeelPlugin.ini:
- FrontGripEffect=0.000000 might be better at 0.200000 (range 0 to 1).
It reduces all forces when the front tyres lose grip. Locking up, understeer etc.
Link:
https://forum.reizastudios.com/thre...-works-and-what-is-new-about-it.45/#post-3252

If you look into:
Steam\AMS\UserData\Controller
You'll find "LogitechG27.ini".
There, the default is:
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.

But that's just a preset.
The real settings, that are actually active are in the "Controller.ini" in the UserData\%YourName\ folder.

Scroll down to [ Force Feedback ] and check if the effects are on or not. I have no real clue about what is doing what but the comments in each line should make it clear.
Apparently the in game options set these settings to active or inactive OR let them be active but set the effect parameters to 0. No idea sadly...

Quoting from post 1 in the linked AMS thread:
"Part1: 'fake' effects
- LOW (now PURE 360 hz): Realfeel forces only
- PURE 180 hz: Realfeel forces only, but at half the rate
- MEDIUM (now PURE + EFFECTS 1): + damping, friction, kerb 'pull', kerb 'shake', jolts from impacts at 180 hz
- HIGH (now PURE + EFFECTS 2): +brake pedal steering vibration, at 180hz
- FULL (now PURE + EFFECTS 3): + engine RPM vibration, car speed vibration, at 180hz."

Looking into the Userdata\%userName%\Controller.ini:
FFB Effects Level="1" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
I guess you should put this to "5" and go through all the lines and active everything that has something in the name with throttle and brake.


Make a backup before fiddling with all this and since I never did this myself, you should be careful and probably read more about it first. But I wanted to give you some input before you give up

THANK YOU! for the detailed reply.
and YES, what I'm looking for is the "slip effect". I didn't know that was the proper name for it haha
and yeah, although not the most realistic, IMO having it at a low setting (i think in AC mine's setup at 2%), helps a lot for me with my very basic setup (G25 on my desk with a single 24" monitor and kitchen chair )

Having said that, even with my setup I can feel the difference between AC, PC2 and AMS FFB.

 

[RasmusP]

THANK YOU! for the detailed reply.
and YES, what I'm looking for is the "slip effect". I didn't know that was the proper name for it haha
and yeah, although not the most realistic, IMO having it at a low setting (i think in AC mine's setup at 2%), helps a lot for me with my very basic setup (G25 on my desk with a single 24" monitor and kitchen chair )

Having said that, even with my setup I can feel the difference between AC, PC2 and AMS FFB.

The differences are definitely there, even with a logitech wheel! I liked AMS a lot, ffb wise, with my g27.
I hope I could give you some idea and a start of the path to follow but although there are apparently quite some "effects" available I'm not sure if a slip effect is possible.
Throttle effect afaik is more like the engine RPM as a vibration and brake effect similar.
You should try the front grip effect though. Apparently it's not longer recommended to be set to 0.2 instead of the default 0.0 due to a change to the real feel stuff but I think with a logitech wheel it might at least help to feel a bit more what the front tyres are doing.

Good luck finding what you want

 

[Heitor Facuri Cicoti]

@lemonbrahz, I would suggest you to lower your FFB strength from 100 to 70%. Maybe the feel that you are looking for is happenning, but the FFB is clipping. You need to have room in your wheel motor output in order to get all the little information around peak FFB.

@Marc Collins, I definately feel the oversteer. But power on wheel slip while going straight in a RWD, not much. Only if the road is a bit bumpy.

 

[Case_]

As far as I'm aware, AMS FFB doesn't clip in a significant way when set to 100 %, at least not with the official cars, unless the user has already messed with the FFB-related settings in the game files. There's some occasional mild clipping here and there, but that's about it.

 

[RasmusP]

As far as I'm aware, AMS FFB doesn't clip in a significant way when set to 100 %, at least not with the official cars, unless the user has already messed with the FFB-related settings in the game files. There's some occasional mild clipping here and there, but that's about it.

In the AMS thread I linked, post 1 explains that AMS is set to clip around 30% with default settings.
It's not much for sure, it might kill subtle vibrations though.
I've found that with my g27 in assetto corsa, I could feel the slip effect at 5% when I wasn't cornering. The moment the ffb meter went close to 100%, the slip vibration vanished.
So I put the slip effect to 25% so it would still be there during clipping as it's percentage of the ffb output would be big enough to still show while clipping happened (as in vibration being a left/right movement instead of an on top amplitude thing).

Anyway, maybe AMS has some slight nuances of natural vibrations or movements for slipping tyres (with my real car I get stuttering if my wheels start to spin. Should at least give some mild pulsing in the wheel too imo).
So yeah, lowering the ffb a little might help.
I have to say that anything else than 100% was too weak to enjoy driving with the g27 for me

 

[CMGARAGE]

In the AMS thread I linked, post 1 explains that AMS is set to clip around 30% with default settings.

I was under the impression it was reduced further with the introduction of the low-force boost. I have a figure of 10-15 in my head but can't find the source atm.

 

[Marc Collins]

My only added comment after all this great discussion is 80% for low force boost?? Isn't that way too high, even for a lower-powered gear-driven Logi wheel?

 

[Case_]

Reiza recommend around 80 % for Logitech wheels and around 40 % for wheels like T300 and similar. It's a setting that's often confused with the "minimum force" or "minimum torque" kind of setting in other games, but it doesn't work the same way, so the values are quite different.

 

[RasmusP]

What Martin said. In AMS it's a different thing, kind of a low force boosting algorithm which, for some reason I absolutely don't understand, gets set in high percentages.
Maybe they should've implemented a translation to the normal minimum force settings of other games.

At least it's not "dead zone removal fall off"

 

[Case_]

At least it's not "dead zone removal fall off"

(I still suspect the entire FFB settings section in that game was just made to troll people.)

 

[Stephen O'Sullivan]

I miss Robert Smith. The forum seems less glamorous.

 

[Marc Collins]

Reiza recommend around 80 % for Logitech wheels and around 40 % for wheels like T300 and similar. It's a setting that's often confused with the "minimum force" or "minimum torque" kind of setting in other games, but it doesn't work the same way, so the values are quite different.

I'll have to go back and experiment with some higher settings for my Fanatec. FFB always feels fantastic even at a very low setting. But doesn't matter--if @lemonbrahz is using the recommended setting for Logi then my comment can be ignored!

 

[Case_]

With Fanatec, you probably don't need all that much low FFB boost. I wouldn't know, but I'd guess 20 % might be all that's needed, plus personal preference plays a big part in this as well. But I'm sure Rasmus will give you a more relevant answer.

 

[Heitor Facuri Cicoti]

Here's what Low Force Boost does: link

Or, for who doesn't have access: