PC1 Force Feedback Analysis

[vee10]

Yes another FFB thread. Don't get me wrong enjoying the game on the whole. I have been trying to work out what has been bugging me with regard to the steering and FFB. This is a issue that we had in the Codemasters F1 games, lack of road feel. I just can't work a way around it. What I am seeing on the screen from the way the car is behaving and what the FFB meter is showing and also what I am feeling through the wheel does not correlate. Take a look at Alonso's lap at Catalunya.

Look at the way his hands oscillate on the wheel they are constantly being fed infromation that is even with a high sidewall on the F1 tyre.

 

[vee10]

Now look at this at Catalunya in a LMP car.

The car is oscillating to bumps on the road surface but FFB meter is just flat lining. Even when I increase gain to the extent of massive clipping there is still nothing.

This is my main reason why I feel something is not right here.

 

[RaceNut]

The F1 video matches what I get at the wheel quite closely in Pcars but, it does depend on the track. Some have more detailed bumps than others.

 

[jimortality]

@Lazarou Now take the Merc DTM to the Nordy GP and try again.

 

[Andrej Svajger]

Now look at this at Catalunya in a LMP car.
The car is oscillating to bumps on the road surface but FFB meter is just flat lining. Even when I increase gain to the extent of massive clipping there is still nothing.
This is my main reason why I feel something is not right here.

I'm sure you did setup the car correctly but anyway. How did you set the Fz value on Spindle page in your FFB settings of the car? This setting "creates" the effect you're missing, namely vertical FFB. Like Jim and Dean said, there's no uniform setting for all car+track combos, with some you have to tone down some settings, with others you have to increase the values. If you're not getting enough vertical FFB you might try and raise the Fz value and see if it helps.

 

[Sele1981]

I have the same problem. FFB is great with the Tweaker files but on the straight its dead. I hope we get a patch that implements some road feel. At least for us who wants it. The others who think its not realistic can turn it off. Would be really great because the overall FFB seems great.

 

[vee10]

I'm sure you did setup the car correctly but anyway. How did you set the Fz value on Spindle page in your FFB settings of the car? This setting "creates" the effect you're missing, namely vertical FFB. Like Jim and Dean said, there's no uniform setting for all car+track combos, with some you have to tone down some settings, with others you have to increase the values. If you're not getting enough vertical FFB you might try and raise the Fz value and see if it helps.

The Fz value is about 80 in the video Andrej.

The point I am trying to make is the wheel and the car in the A450 video are responding to the small bumps and imperfections but the FFB through wheel is not it is dead and lifeless. Even with the FFB turned upto max on everything there is nothing. The FFB through the corners and kerbs and the odd bump feels pretty damn good.

It just does not feel right going down a bumpy straight with nothing coming through the wheel.

I tried all the Formula A,B,C cars later last night. They feel great in the corners but again nothing happening on the straight.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Look at the way his hands oscillate on the wheel they are constantly being fed infromation that is even with a high sidewall on the F1 tyre.

The car is oscillating to bumps on the road surface but FFB meter is just flat lining.

Not all the steering wheel movements are due to road bumps felt on the wheel. His hands move due to car movements and up and down g-forces, forcing his arms to move.

On a straight line in my race car, i don't have jerks on my wheel. But that car isn't a stiff suspension F1 car. It's probably a mix of both. I'll have to ask Alonso's opion.

 

[vee10]

Not all the steering wheel movements are due to road bumps felt on the wheel. His hands move due to car movements and up and down g-forces, forcing his arms to move.

On a straight line in my race car, i don't have jerks on my wheel. But that car isn't a stiff suspension F1 car. It's probably a mix of both. I'll have to ask Alonso's opion.

I probably did not phrase it very well Gijs but you are correct if cars transmitted every bump and imperfection even in race cars then you probably could not drive for more than a few laps unless you were a gorilla or something. There are other forces at work and also there is obviously some damping from the side wall, suspension etc.

I am trying to say that on the straight on my wheel as the graph shows there is no FFB being generated or transmitted but visually the car is reacting to something on the straight.

You would feel something somewhere if your car was moving on the suspension and the wheel oscillating like it is in A450 video even if it was a canned effect.

The disconnect for me is that I am seeing movement but it is not being transmitted.

Although there is great FFB to be had especially in the downforce cars which feel great over the kerbs and in the corners were you can actually feel downforce acting on the wheel.

It just loses the immersion on straights.

All these sims or games or whatever are a approximation of what is going on, how the designers/programmers convey that in whatever way is the skill.

I am pretty sure Niels Heusinkveld has never driven most of the cars he has created physics and FFB for, I am pretty sure he drives a Ford Fiesta in real life, but he somehow gets the feeling across and the cars always feel connected even on the straights.

 

[Leynad777]

Even on grass or sand there´s is nearly no ffb in slow speed when driving straight. But hey, it just got released and with "the right" settings it´s the best ffb in turns that i know

 

[Ace King]

The Fz value is about 80 in the video Andrej.
It just does not feel right going down a bumpy straight with nothing coming through the wheel.

I tried all the Formula A,B,C cars later last night. They feel great in the corners but again nothing happening on the straight.

Most wheels have a certain amount of deadzone which affects the center portion of your wheel, thus on the straights! Usually the more you "decrease" your FFB below 100% the more your increase that deadzone. Use the wheel check utility from this site to determine how much deadzone and apply it in your ingame FFB settings.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

I am pretty sure Niels Heusinkveld has never driven most of the cars he has created physics and FFB for, I am pretty sure he drives a Ford Fiesta in real life, but he somehow gets the feeling across and the cars always feel connected even on the straights.

He doesn't have to. Doing physics on ISI engines is translating real data to data the sim works with. The visual suspension movements, the visual tire flex and FFB are just a reaction to that. And you should get realistic data output to work with as engineer and racers. If you fill in those numbers correct, the simulator should do the rest.

I don't know how Pcars physics/FFB is generated. But it gives me an immersieve driving/racing experience. I don't need to have exact data out put from Pcars. It gives me an OK feeling as simracer. FFB is much beter then i expected. It's fun and immersive.

 

[Andy_J]

I am missing brake vibration too. It helps me with feel. But in Pcars it does not seem to be there. Just nothing until lock up and then not much after that.
The FFB in this game compared to AC or GSCE is far inferior so far but hopefully with everyone having a go at finding fixes, we will soon get it better.

Again has somebody else stated on another thread, SMS/WMD had so many testers but they have still not managed to come up with a base default FFB setting that is at least resonable.
Many times during my latest build testing, some builds were better than others, the next would break the the FFB and the whole feel. Hence my sometimes joy at trying a build and the next it went back to being one of the Shift games again.

There is hope I think.

 

[vee10]

He doesn't have to. Doing physics on ISI engines is translating real data to data the sim works with. The visual suspension movements, the visual tire flex and FFB are just a reaction to that. And you should get realistic data output to work with as engineer and racers. If you fill in those numbers correct, the simulator should do the rest.

I don't know how Pcars physics/FFB is generateted. But it gives me an immersieve driving/racing experience. I don't need to have exact data out put from Pcars. It gives me an OK feeling as simracer. FFB is much beter then i expected. It's fun and immersive.

Do you get FFB on the straight then Gijs on your wheel, does the clipping meter pick up FFB?

 

[Akis]

I almost maxed out Fz in order to get some feel from the road surface. Did you try this @Lazarou?

Still miles away from the forces I get on other sims (example 1, example 2).

 

[PaulH]

I got to say the FFB is getting much better now after reading countless forum posts and help guides, the ONLY thing is the straight line feeling is still not there, you cant tell me all these powerful cars wouldn't cause even a slight vibration on the wheel on a straight line, as @Lazarou has stated, you can see the wheel/hands move visually on long straights but there is no feeling your side, i'm hoping a fix comes......

 

[vee10]

I almost maxed out Fz in order to get some feel from the road surface. Did you try this @Lazarou?

Still miles away from the forces I get on other sims (example 1, example 2).

The videos are exactly what I am saying Akis, the wheel movement is exactly how I would imagine the information being fed from AC to your sexy wheel, it looks so natural.

I tried maxing the Fz there is not really much difference maybe my cheap wheel by your standards has a part to play I don't know but there does not appear to be any information being fed to it anyway.

As @PaulH stated hopefully there will be a fix it cant can't be that hard to even add some subtle canned effects just to give it some feel.

I'm going to have to look at getting one of the servo wheels after I get married in a few weeks. I need that bad boy in my life.

 

[Sele1981]

Thats just exactly my point I am frustrated about for days. On the straight the wheel is dead, even though you see on the screen that the wheel and the arms of the driver are shaking or moving slightly right left. I have the Fanatec V2 and the Min. Force (Deadzone) is at 0 (checked with the IR Tool) and with 0 it works perfect in IRacing. On the straight you get all the information and road feel you need.

If SMS fixes this, I would say, it is a very good FFB feeling. Because the rest feels great (with tweaker files).

 

[Msportdan]

Now look at this at Catalunya in a LMP car.

The car is oscillating to bumps on the road surface but FFB meter is just flat lining. Even when I increase gain to the extent of massive clipping there is still nothing.

This is my main reason why I feel something is not right here.

i have the answer to the video comparison!!!!!!!


...ones real life ones a video game...

please people stop expecting real life forces in a plastic wheel driven by a few gears or belts..

cmon..

 

[Sele1981]

i have the answer to the video comparison!!!!!!!


...ones real life ones a video game...

please people stop expecting real life forces in a plastic wheel driven by a few gears or belts..

cmon..

Every other game can doo this too, cmon..