Formula classic gears problem

Lesthegringo · Jan 15, 2019

Guys, I have an 'H' pattern gearshift that works very well with all my racing games including Automobilista except for the Formula Classic mod.

95% of the time is is fine, going up and down the gears with no problem, if you are not in gear neutral is selected. However, sometimes, and normally when the gearshifting is happening very quickly from a high to a lower gear, the gear does not change. For example, at the end of the main straight, I will brake hard, go from 6th down to fourth directly, then as soon as I can go from 4th to 3rd or second, depending on the track. However despite hitting the clutch, and shifting down the gear or missing the gear, the car stays in 4th gear. I can change gear with the lever into 3rd, second, 1st, and the indicated gear doesn't change. If I change to 5th, it starts working again and I can then go down the gears normally. Essentially, if I try to change gear too fast, it craps out

At first I suspected it was simulating a gearbox failure, but that soon turned out wrong. Is there a glitch with my installation or is this a known issue, and is there a workaround?

Thanks

Les

Marc Collins · Jan 16, 2019

Try shifting properly (you shouldn't skip gears in a race transmission like the ones those cars had--not like the one in your street car). Not sure if Reiza has simulated that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Lesthegringo · Jan 16, 2019

You can skip gears, I tried it again and the issue seems to be with shifting too fast as if I go very quickly from 4th to 3rd (same plane) it also seems to do it, but if I change slowly I can skip. It isn't (or at least doesn't appear to be) some engine protection mode because on the old shift change gearboxes they wouldn't be able to have that, you'd just buzz the engine or strip the gearbox. This is neither, this seems more like something not recognising fast gear changes.

If it was supposed to represent a sequential 'dog box, I could understand it, but this states H pattern

Cheers

Les

Marc Collins · Jan 17, 2019

Lesthegringo said:
You can skip gears, I tried it again and the issue seems to be with shifting too fast as if I go very quickly from 4th to 3rd (same plane) it also seems to do it, but if I change slowly I can skip. It isn't (or at least doesn't appear to be) some engine protection mode because on the old shift change gearboxes they wouldn't be able to have that, you'd just buzz the engine or strip the gearbox. This is neither, this seems more like something not recognising fast gear changes.

If it was supposed to represent a sequential 'dog box, I could understand it, but this states H pattern

Cheers

Les

There are settings to prevent too-rapid gear changes. Some are for realism; some are to prevent people cheating online (e.g., shifting with paddles on the computer while in the old cars with H-pattern shifters, thus resulting in an advantage over those trying to be authentic). If you are convinced the speed of changes is the problem, just look that up here or on Google, or someone here might give the specifics.

Jens Roos · Jan 17, 2019

From another thread, you can change the behavior in the hdv file:

"So my two cents on the shift timing is:
As your UpshiftClutchTime=0.08 and your DownshiftClutchTime=0.20
The AdvancedUpshiftDelay should be similar and not 0.21.
The AdvancedDownshiftDelay is fine as it match the 0.20 of the clutch time."

Have not checked this myself and don't know how it affect online races.

Lesthegringo · Jan 17, 2019

Thanks guys, this sounds like my problem indeed, I'll play with the hdv file and see if it helps

Cheers

Les

Sky · Jan 17, 2019

heeltoe it through all the gears. much more satisfying

so i've given it a go. it did happen a couple of times but one time the revs were really high still and the engine (or something) went pop.

i mean sometimes you can shift down a gear without the clutch or a blip of throttle fine so who knows whats going on

Jens Roos · Jan 17, 2019

Unless you driving a dog box, skipping gear is how an syncro gearbox can be driven on track and heel & toe is also applied. I would even say it's even more important when skipping gear as the difference in revs are greater.

However, some cars/mods have IMO set the shifting limits a bit out of bounds making the shifting feel even more unnatural. Until we have ffb shifters it's never going to feel close to realistic even if it's ok with some shifters (mods help).

Lesthegringo · Jan 18, 2019

I tried to look into the .hdv file, but I can't find it for this mod. The car info file references F_Classic.hdv but despite repeated searches that one does not show up.

However I tested the short shifting and fast gear changes on other cars that use H pattern boxes, and it only seems this mod is affected, so I'm pretty sure that it is some gear setting.

Cheers

Les

CMGARAGE · Jan 18, 2019

Lesthegringo said:
I tried to look into the .hdv file, but I can't find it for this mod. The car info file references F_Classic.hdv but despite repeated searches that one does not show up.

However I tested the short shifting and fast gear changes on other cars that use H pattern boxes, and it only seems this mod is affected, so I'm pretty sure that it is some gear setting.

Cheers

Les

Reiza content has those files encrypted.

You should be able to apply those changes with the use of an upgrade file, though.

Lesthegringo · Jan 18, 2019

Ok, thanks, but being new to this how would you do that?
Cheers

Les

CMGARAGE · Jan 18, 2019

I'm no expert myself. The upgrade .ini for the Classic is free to read and edit.

Make a backup of that and then look to add the lines from the .hdv you were looking to edit.

If you look at how they've implemented the low downforce changes you can see they've changed aspects of the driveline section of the .hdv, which is where you're looking to make changes.

MotherDawg · Jan 19, 2019

Hey Lesthegringo,

First, if you edit the upgrade file, you'll get mismatch when you get online and at the next update, the installer will overwrite it. For your sake, make a backup of the original and of the edited file:
F_Classic_Upgrades.ini
F_Classic_Upgrades.ini.ORG
F_Classic_Upgrades.ini.MOD

Second, like Marc Collins wrote, check in your PLR file for this: Repeat Shifts="4"
It's the 70th line.
0 = no repeat shift detection, 1 = detect and eliminate accidental repeat shifts within 100ms, 2 = 150ms, 3 = 200ms, 4 = 250ms, 5 = prevent shifting again before previous shift is completed

The F1 Classics are serious beast. They're quite quick and you might just be hitting the no repeat shift limit.

---

FYI :
FC driveline values should be the same as these:
UpshiftDelay=0.08
UpshiftClutchTime=0.02
UpshiftLiftThrottle=0.25
DownshiftDelay=0.12
DownshiftClutchTime=0.04
DownshiftBlipThrottle=0.9

I don't have the Advance Transmission values.
From another mod, they look like:

AdvancedTransmission=1
ClutchDisengagementThreshold=0.8 // Threshold beyond which the clutch is pressed enough to never mis-shift (0.0-1.0 scale).
UpshiftRPMDifference=1250 // Absolute RPM delta between the engine and wheels (after going through the gearbox) beyond which a mis-shift occurs (if you don't use a clutch).
DownshiftRPMDifference=1250 // Absolute RPM delta for downshifts.
AdvancedUpshiftDelay=0.05
AdvancedDownshiftDelay=0

So you could try to add this in your F_Classic_Upgrades.ini file but understand, since we don't have the Defaults, once an Upgrade has been chosen, it's possible to change to another Upgrade but not to set it back to the original defaults. For that, you have to restart the game.

This code is untested, it might need modifications:

Code:

UpgradeType="Advance Transmission"
{
  UpgradeLevel="Advance Transmission ON : 1"
  {
    HDV=
    HDV=[DRIVELINE]
    HDV=AdvancedTransmission=1
    HDV=ClutchDisengagementThreshold=0.8
    HDV=UpshiftRPMDifference=1250
    HDV=DownshiftRPMDifference=1250
    HDV=AdvancedUpshiftDelay=0.05
    HDV=AdvancedDownshiftDelay=0.05
  }

  UpgradeLevel="Advance Transmission ON : 2"
  {
    HDV=
    HDV=[DRIVELINE]
    HDV=AdvancedTransmission=1
    HDV=ClutchDisengagementThreshold=0.5
    HDV=UpshiftRPMDifference=1500
    HDV=DownshiftRPMDifference=1500
    HDV=AdvancedUpshiftDelay=0.025
    HDV=AdvancedDownshiftDelay=0.025
  }

  UpgradeLevel="Advance Transmission OFF"
  {
    HDV=
    HDV=[DRIVELINE]
    HDV=AdvancedTransmission=0
  }

HF

Lesthegringo · Jan 20, 2019

Nice one, MotherDawg, great post! I'll go and have a go at that today. A friend who works with electronics also suggested having a look at the microswitches in my gearbox. He mentioned that some of them (the cheap ones) can have contacts that degrade and cause what he calls jitter, where the contact bounces slightly when closed. That may replicate shift bounce inadvertently. As I said, this mod seems to be the only one affected so I'll try the programming changes quoted above first, but may experimentally replace the 3rd and 4th gear microswitches if it gives no joy

Thanks for all the help guys!

Cheers

Marc Collins · Jan 20, 2019

Lesthegringo said:
Nice one, MotherDawg, great post! I'll go and have a go at that today. A friend who works with electronics also suggested having a look at the microswitches in my gearbox. He mentioned that some of them (the cheap ones) can have contacts that degrade and cause what he calls jitter, where the contact bounces slightly when closed. That may replicate shift bounce inadvertently. As I said, this mod seems to be the only one affected so I'll try the programming changes quoted above first, but may experimentally replace the 3rd and 4th gear microswitches if it gives no joy

Thanks for all the help guys!

Cheers

Jittery low-quality switches is why the Repeat Shifts="n" line was programmed in the first place. Back in the olden days, cheap switches were all most sim racers had

The .PLR settings are global, so would affect all cars. If it's only one mod, the issue is in the settings of that mod (and do not related to the Repeat Shifts issue).

Marc Collins · Jan 21, 2019

New info.

Since you are into the Formula Classics, you will likely want to try this mod that just got released:

https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/hso-cart-1988-indycar-world-series.24923/

I will bet that you will not like the shifting! I experienced the same issue that you have with the Formula Classics with this similar-era mod. That got me to go try the Classics again to see if I had mis-remembered my experience with them (haven't driven them in a while).

What occurred to me was that no one here, including me, asked you about clutch usage. You do realize that the clutch is not necessary for most shifts in the Classics? As long as you are rev matched reasonably closely, you can up and down shift without using the third pedal. Even on fast shifts, I have no issues.

I tried doing exactly the same thing with the CART 1988 mod and ran into trouble. I think there is one review commenter saying the same thing. The mod authors have narrowed the range of what is possible via the settings described in posts above. You have to be more gentle and have a closer rev match--even with the clutch--than in Reiza's Classics (with or without the clutch). This may be realistic and done on purpose by the mod author? Either way, it can be re-modded the other way if someone wanted, but it occurred to me that @Lesthegringo you should try this mod to see if it immediately trips you up. If so, this is all by design and you need to deliberately slow your shifts to 1980's pace