GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

[Paul Jeffrey]

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!

 

[Deleted member 130869]

It is difficult to get into it today because of the force feedback. Feel was a major problem on isimotor 1 and 2.0. And it's 11 years old.

PS: Why do advances on certain areas have to mean the regression on all other areas to some people? Progress the stuff and leave the rest the same. Not completely lose it.

 

[Cosmo Marsh]

You're picking on GTR2 because it doesn't simulate flatspots and flexing...well tell me how many games do simulate this then?

That's not my point. I could pick on rFactor, Race 07, NetKar Pro, you name it for not having these features. I'm trying to illustrate that these sort of developments are coming about and a simulator that's as old as GTR2, and not being developed anymore, will eventually be overtaken.

 

[Matt Horst]

I feel like sim racers have allowed the developers to take advantage of us to some degree.I think a lot of us (myself included) buy any and all sim racing games plus dlc's that come out no matter what.Its basically guaranteed sales for any developer who brings a half decent sim racing title to the market. If we were more discriminating with our money perhaps racing games would be a lot closer to the polished quality of GTR2.

 

[Associat0r]

• GTR2 had and still has bad AI, even worse than rF1. Even Grand Prix 2 AI from 1996 is better. isiMotor AI only became worth racing against with isiMotor2.5 AKA rFactor 2, in which they made major fundamental behavioral improvements, which won't be coming to a Simbin title anytime soon.
• Bad netcode. Therefore useless for leagues and RD.
• Workarounds and Substitute physics calibration models. Therefore lack of Simulation Value.
• Its wet weather/rain is and looks like a joke compared to Grand Prix 3 from 2000, let alone Grand Prix 4 from 2002. That's why it was removed for rF1.
• Graphically it was lacking even in its day, but that was the least of its issues.

GTR2 barely did little more than ISI's Sports Car GT, F1 Challenge 99-02 and NASCAR Thunder 2004 already did. http://imagespaceinc.com/software.php

The last complete titles worth praising that somewhat worked as advertised are Papyrus' NASCAR 2003 and Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 4, although the latter's physics are a joke compared to ISI's F1 Challenge 99-02.

 

[GTAce]

GTR², GTL and rFactor + Photoshop... good times.

I gotta be honest though, the improvements we had in the genre like sounds, graphics, AI and especially the physics, make it impossible for me to go back. GTR² has this incredibly annoying flaw of way too hard to catch oversteer. Even the devs acknowledged that.

 

[muzikant]

Everything is oke about gtr2 only the ai...

But for me is GPL Paypyrus the best old simrace game..

 

[TzZyO]

Between "completeness", "quality" and decent physics/FFB I choose the latter, thank you very much.

 

[ronniej]

Used to be able to find a good reliable mechanic, body shop, restaurant, and services for a fair price...What happened? Used to be able to test out my carburetor adjustments and bolt-on enhancements without a zillion cameras, cops and cell phones taking pictures and reporting me...What happened? Used to be able to live happy with a mediocre lower paying job and not stress about finances and making ends meet...What happened? lol.

Because (most) modern sims try to move the genre forward focusing their efforts on their physics engines instead of purchasing them from somewhere else adding some candy as content.

I'm hoping it's for this reason though, which is why I'm happy with AC and rF2 and look forward to what lays ahead. I personally have short spurts of time, and have the most fun playing (99.9%) offline. (hotlapping and AI )

 

[felippekiss]

The people didn't get the message of the matter. The question raised is how and even after 11 years its release GTR2 manages to be more complete in its CORE than several current games, the matter doesn't discuss physics, ffb, or any of that, because it would be stupid to do it since the game has more Of 11 years. Over the years with the next games what we expected to see were those functions being applied with improvements and is not what happens, many of the following games almost don't have many of these functions. This is what matter is focusing on.

 

[tlsmikey]

Never played GTR2, but hear nothing but great things.

What i notice is that because our core base is so small, its hard for someone to develop a game this deep and get enough profits. I think that's why we're seeing people push into the crossover point and trying to attract some forza/controller type folks that may not be traditional sim fans, but want to try it out.

Going forward, the only one to develop a simulation this deep has been iRacing and even with all their fees its lacking in the single player area.

 

[TzZyO]

The people didn't get the message of the matter. The question raised is how and even after 11 years its release GTR2 manages to be more complete in its CORE than several current games, the matter doesn't discuss physics, ffb, or any of that, because it would be stupid to do it since the game has more Of 11 years. Over the years with the next games what we expected to see were those functions being applied with improvements and is not what happens, many of the following games almost don't have many of these functions. This is what matter is focusing on.

The answer was already given, though. These days you can't simply afford adding on a ton of features if you want to have any job done on the physics engine, provided you are a very small team.

 

[Matheus Machado]

I love to see how much enthusiasm comes out of this title so much time after it got released, but I can't get this excited with it.

In terms of an immersion package it undoubtedly has shown the most complete feature set. Although its only big step up from titles made at late 90s and early 00s was night racing coupled with the "complete" feature set. It never stood out as a physics standard and compared to today's most advanced platforms (AC and rF2) it really shows its age.

What changed development focus (imo) is the fact that sim racing games aren't a niche genre compared to what it was in the last decade. Codemasters latest games bringing more detailed physics and pCars helped to insert sims into a somewhat mainstream, even culminating in AC being ported to consoles. And considering a little fraction of who plays these games actually do competitive online racing (or even races long enough to make pit stops) the vanishing of a "complete feature set" is understandable.

Saying it is the best simulation experience one can buy in 2017 is absurdly exaggerated from what I see. Most of its features are present in a more accessible manner in AMS and in a more complicated (and complete) way in rF2. Let alone the driving experience which is a huge step above in AMS, with another huge improvement in rF2 and AC.

GP4, NR2003, GPL and NFSU2 were all car games good in their time such as GTR2 is. Saying any of these titles set standards today is anachronism.

 

[Matheus Machado]

I feel like sim racers have allowed the developers to take advantage of us to some degree.I think a lot of us (myself included) buy any and all sim racing games plus dlc's that come out no matter what.Its basically guaranteed sales for any developer who brings a half decent sim racing title to the market. If we were more discriminating with our money perhaps racing games would be a lot closer to the polished quality of GTR2.

I think it is more related to the distribution format change rather than money itself. Deploying new content and patches was much harder in the past compared than what it is today. The amount of content today's software has is considerably higher than older equivalents.

 

[Matt Orr]

1 reason and only one 1 reason, the car roster is inadvertently one of the best you could assemble because racing changed significantly shortly thereafter. Now we have BoP which makes every car much the same, GT3 cars do GT1 lap times in places not thanks to power or even downforce, but simply megasupertires and electronics - despite having 100 fewer HP. That's the world of racing.

I mean you have a 993 GT2, the god mode 550, the ultra fast tire shredding S7R, a Viper well past it's prime and clearly off the pace, Lamborghinis made of glass... THAT is what made GTR2.

(...this is me saying that if GTR3 is GT3 they might as well not even bother as it will have zero chances of recreating anything the original GTR games did...)

Otherwise, besides nostalgia it offers nothing over the modern crop. Rain is and was even at the time poor, night is - as all Gm2 titles - incredibly poorly optimized, and unless you are clueless the driving school is nothing more than a trivial challenge for the sake of gamifying things. At the time the AI was marginally better than most rF1 circuits, and about the same (how shocking...) as the quality stuff. Championship mode? Nothing more than a way to convince you to grind to unlock circuits if you choose not to cheat. Flagmen? No really, flagmen? Sure, that's sweet... but is that the golden ticket?

I don't see this package that we don't have today beyond the cars. It still boils down to driving virtual cars around virtual circuits racing stupid AI or if you are lucky finding an online race. Where is the difference? You can do this in most every title now... yet now we complain about it. Nostalgia Goggles, man.

I dunno. GTR2 is one I love and probably the one I played the most, but it was for the cars and nothing else. So many of the things that "supposedly" makes GTR2 this fantastic thing were nothing more than features to check the boxes rather than things that worked absolutely properly and were amazing features.

Or in other words, the rain / weather did not make the game better. It's fun for nostalgia and the fact it's fun because sim racing is fun (right....?), but where is this magical complete package? It has different FIA GT themed menu graphics?

Don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic time and is still a heck of a lot of fun, but not because of the mythical reputation it seems like has been assigned to it in the last 4-5 years or so.

 

[BeardedWalnut]

Yeah, I'm just going to uninstall AC and say to hell with the plethora of cars and laser scanned tracks. Nordschleife is so overrated anyway.

I'm sticking with GTR2. This post is so right on

Even Virtua Racing had animated pit crew. Therefore Virtua Racing > Assetto Corsa

 

[Nick Hill]

Some really great points in this thread.

On my end, I'll tell you why it still regularly gets fired up on system: it's a complete game.

There is no one feature of GTR2 (save for perhaps driving school?) that hasn't been surpassed by more modern sims...but look how many sims have been released since GTR2 before we were able to make such a statement!

Find me GTR2s glaring, frustration inducing weakness. It ain't there. Until the modern sim that we can say the same thing about comes out, I'll be periodically firing up GTR2.

 

[Datsun4ever]

I recently started playing GTR2 again after years away. Could not agree more, amazing sim still, and with a couple mods, it really shines. PLEASE LET GTR3 BE AS GOOD!!

 

[GTSpeedster]

I think many (most?) people are missing an important part of the history - which I feel is important to correct - in that other than lending the naming rights for the game, SimBin (later Sector3) played no part whatsoever and had absolutely nothing (zip, nada, zero!) to do with the development of GTR2, which was entirely done by a certain "Blimey! Games" now known as Slightly Mad Studios (how is that for a plot twist?).

That explains why R3E "didn't carry over features that were already present in their code", since it was never their code to begin with. As well as to why the following SMS games failed to deliver in the physics department as they abandoned the ISImotor2 engine in pursuit of a scratch made one.

 

[Slalom823]

I like gtr2 and it stays on my computer, but only for one reason, the driving school. It has a very nice short explanation on most areas of driving and is great to introduce new drivers to sims or performance driving in general.

Unfortunately I really have never been a fan of the physics. Race 07 had very acceptable physics, live for speed had very good physics, so it isn't just that all older games don't have as advanced physics. I think gtr2 had the potential to have good physics, I speculate it is something in the settings. I'm sure many would swear its great or plenty good, but I am confident in saying that it allows you to lift throttle or even brake mid corner with little or no consequence. To me that takes away too much for me to enjoy driving. This may be considered by some to still be one of the best sims out there, but with stock content, I don't think the handling/physics are even as good as gran turismo 5 or 6. But then again I've typically been in the minority and have used games and sims for hot lapping more than racing ai. It did have lots of great features though, so that's nice.

 

[Slalom823]

I like gtr2 and it stays on my computer, but only for one reason, the driving school. It has a very nice short explanation on most areas of driving and is great to introduce new drivers to sims or performance driving in general.

Unfortunately I really have never been a fan of the physics. Race 07 had very acceptable physics, live for speed had very good physics, so it isn't just that all older games don't have as advanced physics. I think gtr2 had the potential to have good physics, I speculate it is something in the settings. I'm sure many would swear its great or plenty good, but I am confident in saying that it allows you to lift throttle or even brake mid corner with little or no consequence. To me that takes away too much for me to enjoy driving. This may be considered by some to still be one of the best sims out there, but with stock content, I don't think the handling/physics are even as good as gran turismo 5 or 6. But then again I've typically been in the minority and have used games and sims for hot lapping more than racing ai. It did have lots of great features though, so that's nice.