How much FFB can you feel in GTR2? 1/1000 of a percent.

[Shovas]

Update: This post is ancient and has been vastly superceded and improved upon by the crowdsourced SHO Competition FFB for GTR2 mod here at Race Department.

I thought the GTR2 fans would find these results on the precision of GTR2 FFB interesting. For the record, I run a SimXperience Accuforce direct drive wheel. Precision probably wouldn't be as noticeable on belt/gear wheels.

I've been tuning force feedback and recording details on my blog and, in any game where I need to tune value ranges, I find myself doing bi-section searches and testing the result to find what suits me best for a particular FFB parameter.

Here's my latest testing on this parameter in the UserData PLR file:

FFB steer force grip weight="0.71696" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.

Note 0.71696 is basically 71.696% given the 0.0-1.0 range. GTR2's PLR files apparently have a precision of up to 5 decimal places or 1/1000th precision thought of as a percentage.

How did I end up at a super specific value like that? Well, here's the bi-section search it took me to arrive at that value:

FFB steer force grip weight="0.78000", 0.785, 0.7875, 0.6875, 0.7875, 0.6875, 0.7375, 0.7125, 0.725, 0.71875, 0.715625, 0.7171875 (better), 0.71640625, 0.716796875, 0.7169921875, 0.71689453125, 0.716943359375, (0.7169189453125+ vs 0.7169677734375++), 0.71695556640625 (*, **, ***)

Yes, at every step I could tell the difference (note the "better" notation, and the "+" and "++" notations). I was choosing what gave me a better feeling of grip level while cornering.

Those last two values were (when rounded) really 71.697% and 71.696%: A 1/1000th precision difference that you could feel in the wheel.

Some might be skeptical, I understand, just be aware this is really only perceptible when you're going hard like say for fastest lap in a qualifying session. Precision of ffb matters at that point.

Personally, I find it really fascinating to push an old game like GTR2 from 2006 this far and find out it can deliver that kind of fidelity on a modern direct drive wheel.

*Yes, to update those values I have to exit GTR2, edit the PLR, and start GTR2 back up again. A real pain but worth it when you start to feel the car as it was meant to be felt.

**My "bi-section searching" deviates from a strict bi-section search in that sometimes I experiment and try values that aren't strictly a bi-section the previous two values. I find this can help when I'm frustrated with the feel and need to find my bearings with a bigger jump which I then narrow down again with a regular bi-section search.

***If you're interested, I've attached my PLR so you can see all my modified FFB values. The car was HQ F575 GTC and the track was HQ Brno. I run 60hz vsync.

 

[Frank Strokappe]

Shovas, wow..

I haven't tried it yet, as i'm about to get to bed with a big smile, thanks to you and your Gem sitting here on Racedepartment.

Thank you SO much for the hard work, i really look forwards to booting up GTR2 (and Power & Glory as well) and see for myself if your settings are working for me... So far Jimmy Broadbent is spreading the word and he's adament about your settings, and so will i, i'm sure!

Thank you VERY much for helping us wheel-snobs (haha) get to use our Direct drive wheels on the old title. Very well done.


Woof ~ Woof & Salute!

 

[Shovas]

Ha! I love Jimmy! It's so funny to hear him call out my handle here after watching his videos for so long. Good stuff. Still need to watch the video all the way through...looks like fun!

For the record, I've continued my searching while completing a championship. Every new race I'd tweak the FFB again. I'll have to update this thread with those details when I get some time. The final "certified" PLR is on my blog.

 

[Msportdan]

that video shows how the ai have aged though, but what a sim still.

 

[Shovas]

that video shows how the ai have aged though, but what a sim still.

Try the HQ AI mod and crank up the "“AI to AI Collision Rate” in your UserData PLR file and I think you'll find a much better experience.

 

[Shovas]

I've finally watched the video and I'm really happy Jimmy finds the settings an improvement. I was a little worried because I've made so many changes since posting the PLR in this thread. At any rate, he's quite on the mark, in feeling a little bit more information of grip levels and a more informative road feel as compared to default FFB settings.

Big caveat here: I found the stock cars and tracks untunable to be honest. I was looking for FFB that allowed me to drive in dry and wet and I never could get sane FFB from stock cars and tracks. I was only ever able to accomplish that with HQ Cars and Tracks. I'm happy he felt it was an improvement on the car and track he chose, though (the car and track he's on might in fact be HQ, just not sure).

Jimmy's a little generous likening it to Stock Car Extreme FFB. He does continue to say it's not quite that level, it's not a lot of information, but enough to tell what the car and tires are doing - an improvement over default FFB.

Around the 9min mark he talks about kerbs really pulling at the car. I actually have this exact issue (I've posted about it in another thread) and I find it's part exaggerated effect in GTR2, at least compared to say iRacing/AMS/RF2, and part down to car setup including springs, and fast bump/rebound.

For comparison, my final HQ 2004 Championship tweaked FFB ended up with these two settings which I consider the most important for grip and road feel:

FFB steer force grip weight="0.30720" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="0.99998" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.

If Jimmy was using the PLR from this thread then he was at:

FFB steer force grip weight="0.71696"
FFB steer force grip factor="0.75000"

That was a long time ago for me and many, many tweaks since. The difference is that extreme because at one point I started at 1.0 Grip Factor attempting to do minimal changes there, to keep it realistic, and just working with Force Grip, as Julian Regnard's FFB guide recommends.

I'll be updating my blog post with my latest PLR.

 

[Shovas]

I've uploaded the latest HQ Cars and Tracks certified PLR on my blog. There have been a lot of changes since I uploaded the PLR to this thread and I think it should be a big improvement.

 

[Shovas]

Jimmy's a little generous likening it to Stock Car Extreme FFB. He does continue to say it's not quite that level, it's not a lot of information, but enough to tell what the car and tires are doing - an improvement over default FFB.

Just wanted to hightlight something here,

I think GTR2 is up there with the best, right up to this day, when it comes to mass transfer modeling.

Where GTR2 falls short is road feel which is only sort of mimicked by the Grip Weight setting which affects force strength based on grip level at the wheels. This is not the same as road feel information but it's as close as you can get in GTR2 for feeling road contours, bumps, etc..

True to form, SimBin/Sector3 have always lacked road feeling. They even defended this a few years ago before R3E FFB and track mesh improved. It's their track FFB mesh that has always been lacking in older titles

And that's the final downfall of GTR2 tracks: The tracks lack ffb mesh detail on the track surface. If you don't have that you're not going to feel anything through FFB.

Still, what you can get out of mass transfer and grip translates into a pretty decent experience.

 

[Msportdan]

for me apart from the absolutely wicked cars, theres no reason to play this over something like AMS - its just evolved this engine so much further.

 

[David Wright]

for me apart from the absolutely wicked cars, theres no reason to play this over something like AMS - its just evolved this engine so much further.

Evolved so much further? Reiza have done some nice things to AMS but GTR2 still has features missing from AMS. Does AMS do rain? Does it do in-game saves for long endurance races? Does it have animated pitcrew? Does a low sun actually blind you like in real life? I'd still take GTR2 every time.

 

[Msportdan]

ill take the better FFB (update rate aswell) better physics, better visuals, better audio, better track dynamics, better ai, better flatspotting, better MP.....

and rain doesn't work with the ai in this or any sim that tries it.. GTR 2 is good a classic like race 07 and its series but its aged. Time has moved, on, but GTR2 does remind us that there are still many features missing from current sims.

 

[David Wright]

ill take the better FFB (update rate aswell) better physics, better visuals, better audio, better track dynamics, better ai, better flatspotting, better MP.....

You are of course entitled to your opinion. With my wheel (G25) and in my opinion, tweaked GTR2 FFB is better than AMS. Given the 10 year age gap, AMS should have better graphics but in my opinion the difference is negligible. If you like SweetFX you can run SweetFX with GTR2. GTR2 livetrack is very similar to AMSs dynamic track in terms of rubbering and marbles and of course includes wet and drying tracks. I haven't driven AMS AI with the latest updates so can't comment on that and I don't run online.

At the end of the day they are trying to do different things. AMS is aiming to be a jack of all trades simulating everything from trucks to F1 to goKarts, usually in single make series. GTR2 is firmly focused on simulating the 2003 and 2004 FIA GT series with its multi-class racing and cars with different characteristics racing each other.

Although I admire Reiza's approach of - in the main - avoiding what everyone else is doing and doing the niche stuff - there is just something special about that GT championship which for me means I would opt for GTR2 over AMS. But of course there is room on my hard drive for both.

 

[Msportdan]

I do agree there David - we so badly need a new iteration of GTR2 where it concentrates on one series and nails it all down to the pit crew - pretty much like gtr2 did.

My hopes gt3 isn't that positive tbh.

 

[Msportdan]

You guys wanna watch this dude (or not).... jeez. Why couldnt he just comment on the thread why the need for a video..Cos he's done a vid he thinks he's right.

haha had to turn it off half way thru

 

[Shovas]

You guys wanna watch this dude (or not).... jeez. Why couldnt he just comment on the thread why the need for a video..Cos he's done a vid he thinks he's right

I remember watching that video when that RD thread was hot.

I can understand both points of view. GTR2 up until about F12016/2017 and PCARS2 was the only sim with the complete gamut of feature it has. On the other hand, I won't try to say the physics/handling and FFB are competitive now days, it honestly isn't. It does hold up quite well but there's no way any amount of FFB tweaking is going to get it to feel as good as AMS/RF2, let alone bring the physics up to modern day standards.

Still, there's something incredible about a game like GTR2, with its community, with it's massive collection of mods, and with its buy-it-own-it premise, that is very, very compelling with everything going subscription and freemium.

I was just complimenting GTR233 and DurgeDriven over at NoGripRacing.com for all their efforts keeping the mods fresh and active over there. It's amazing it's now 12 years on from release and things are still happening with the game.

 

[Shovas]

For those interested, I've created a table of mods on my blog and custom PLR files for improved FFB on their car sets.

Currently included PLRs: Original Cars, HQ Cars, FIAGT 2005 Mod, EEC GT3 Mod, WSGT Mod, Super GT500 2005-2013 Mod, Japan SGT300 Mod, and DTM Classics Mod.

Each FFB file has an associated grade to indicate how good I consider it. Currently, I feel HQ Cars, with my FFB settings, feel the best for my hardware.

 

[Spinelli]

I keep seeing on GTR FFB websites issues with FFB curbs because everyone says the curbs should be pushing you away not sucking you in. Well, there are a lot of curbs that actually suck you in.

In real life F2000, I used to actually use the curbs during braking/entry into some particular corners because the curbs seemed more abrasive and apparently offered higher grip. Touching the curbs would immediately want to shoot your car into the curbs - sucking you in. You would have to be prepared to hold the wheel straight before hitting the curb or the curb would make you turn off the track to the outside (eg. turn right even though you're getting ready for a left-hander).

I think it's more the properties of the curb (shape, material, etc.) and possibly vehicle and vehicle setup that determine whether a curb sucks you in or pushes you away. To simply set every curb to suck you in or push you away would be wrong.

 

[Shovas]

In real life F2000, I used to actually use the curbs during braking/entry into some particular corners because the curbs seemed more abrasive and apparently offered higher grip. Touching the curbs would immediately want to shoot your car into the curbs - sucking you in. You would have to be prepared to hold the wheel straight before hitting the curb or the curb would make you turn off the track to the outside (eg. turn right even though you're getting ready for a left-hander).

That's good to know it's true-to-life sometimes! I've actually found a subtle grippy effect in iRacing so maybe that's real, too.

Some kerbs just spin you right around though. Those are frustrating. Spa in GTR2 has some frustrating ones.

That said, I'm pretty sure changes to Fast Bump/Rebound in the car setup can alleviate this quite a bit.