How much torque is too much?

[Cubus]

Hi there,

I've been browsing and searching this forum for a while. Great community!

I'm looking into upgrading my G27 setup.

Pedals will be HE sprints.

I can't make my mind on wheelbase and specifically what torque value.
I seem to like Moza r9 and r16. Price difference is not that significant but I can't picture how much torque 9Nm or 16 is.
I don't want to upgrade later again but I'm so looking more for immersion rather than a workout and getting closer to 1:1 to a racing car wheel torque that I've never driven.

I'd like to do it once and don't need to upgrade later, thus the ask.

Can someone try to describe how much effort/feel 9Nm VS 16Nm are?
What is enough for a casual racer that is after a sensation and immersion?

I play
Dirt 2
ACC
Forza Horizon 5

Thank you!

 

[blekenbleu]

I seem to like Moza r9 and r16

Did you watch the SRG Moza R21 review?
Barry rarely criticizes products, but struggled to get Moza wheel bases feeling OK.
" I was finally able to get the notchy feeling the R16 and R9 had,
dialed almost all the way out with the R21"
http://simracinggarage.com/moza-r21-wheelbase-review/
Barry also compares torques, with bottom line that R16 sufficed, R9 did not.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Get the highest torque wheel you can afford, you can always dial down max torque on higher torque one, but not the other way around. Plus more powerful motor will be more agile with better acceleration and details delivery.

 

[stigs2cousin]

As Andrew wrote, it´s not the raw power but the "agility and finesse" that makes the difference.

As a "forever wheel" I´d take the SC2, but for most it´s prohibitively expensive.
I only bought it because during the plague I saved a lot on car maintenance, tuning and fuel.

If you are a desk racer (and have the space) maybe get (build) a stiff rig first to get the best out of your momentary equipment.
( Oh, wait HSV Sprints, you already have this covered or you will kick your desk chair into the kitchen)

About Moza, never heard of them before, can´t comment on development prowess ( but Barry can)
customer service and parts availabilty in two years.

It´s a big investment which should last many years so some day you´ll need service or spare parts.

Good Luck and success Carsten

 

[Cubus]

so some day you´ll need service or spare parts.

Good Luck and success Carsten

At first I was thinking about Fanatec but the stories about customer service turned me off.
What wheel bases are considered good "investments" from longevity and service parts perspective?

 

[RasmusP]

At first I was thinking about Fanatec but the stories about customer service turned me off.
What wheel bases are considered good "investments" from longevity and service parts perspective?

Simucube 2!
And if you need a cheaper one, an "osw" small mige is also never a bad choice. (Simucube 1 basically)

 

[Cubus]

Simucube 2!
And if you need a cheaper one, an "osw" small mige is also never a bad choice. (Simucube 1 basically)

Thank you.

So how VRS Direct Force Pro compares here? I think it's Mige motor based.
I did see somewhere that there were some issues with the software not fully functional.
Is game compatibility an issue that I should be aware of?

Thank you also all for the comments. I did watch a lot of Barry's reviews, which are amazing, but he came across as a very powerful driver.
Boosted media for instance said in one reviews that 9Nm is more than enough for regular racer, thus, my confusion.

 

[Beef36]

So how VRS Direct Force Pro compares here? I think it's Mige motor based.
I did see somewhere that there were some issues with the software not fully functional.
Is game compatibility an issue that I should be aware of?

I have both a Simucube 2 Pro and a VRS DirectForcePro.

If you have the budget, get a Simucube 2 because that way you never regret not having a Simucube.

However if budget is an issue, get the VRS DFP because from a performance perspective, I honestly can't tell the difference between the two.

I have not had any failures with either hardware, however from a perception basis, I have more confidence in VRS' reliability than Simucube 2, because it is based on the tried and proven Mige motor used in Simucube 1, whereas SC2 is newer and had less time to prove its reliability.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I have not had any failures with either hardware, however from a perception basis, I have more confidence in VRS' reliability than Simucube 2, because it is based on the tried and proven Mige motor used in Simucube 1, whereas SC2 is newer and had less time to prove its reliability.

Reliability based on motor alone can be misleading. Both are industrial motors, one made in China and another EU, but they both can take some serious beating as designed for 24/7 non stop abuse in harsh environments. Servo controllers (electronics) is what most likely can give some issues over time. Simucube comes from Granite Devices, the company that has been specializing in industrial CNC servo controllers for ages, and SC2 is an evolution of what they started with Simucube 1 and before that OSW Argon based (ex. proud owner of one) and IONICube based solutions.
But I honestly don't know the history of VRS and what their roots are.

BTW, as you have access to both, how would you compare software packages. Does VRS indeed have an edge there as I've heard from some sources? Thanks.

 

[Beef36]

BTW, as you have access to both, how would you compare software packages. Does VRS indeed have an edge there as I've heard from some sources? Thanks.

VRS' software is really simple as there are only a few sliders. Their default profiles work really well so if you don't want to tinker, just type in each game's recommended DD settings straight from VRS' website into their software and away you go. Works great and as close to plug and play as I've seen.

Simucube's recent cloud profiles is a big step forward to making configuration easier, but I find True Drive's user interface isn't as intuitive, and now there are so many user made cloud profiles per game that I can't easily work out which works for me and what doesn't. Sometimes too much choice is not a good thing.

Nowadays I just download the most popular True Drive settings created in the last 2 months for each game.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

It's interesting that Rennsport presentation had VRS and Fanatec DD wheels, but no Simucube.
GD is always missing good opportunity to present itself, they skipped last Sim Expo as well, too arrogant or just don't care?

 

[Deleted member 1066209]

I have both a Simucube 2 Pro and a VRS DirectForcePro.

I've heard the Simucube 2 has a setting which momentarily reduces the torque output during crashes, allowing the user to avoid injury. Does the VRS DFP offer something similar when crashing into walls and other drivers?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I've heard the Simucube 2 has a setting which momentarily reduces the torque output during crashes, allowing the user to avoid injury. Does the VRS DFP offer something similar when crashing into walls and other drivers?

If you mean Hands Off detection, it doesn't really work as designed, what it does though is cutting torque off during high speed corners, so recommendation is just to turn it off.

 

[BrightCandle]

A monster no power steering vehicle like Group B could put out 30nm and if you have a look at 100% FFB Challenges on youtube you'll see that its driveable just a lot of work, a genuine physical workout. IIRC modern F1 cars are in the 20nm range. Most streamers and such typically end up in the 12-14 nm range.

I have a CSL DD with the boost kit at 8nm and its enough force to feel the car but I wouldn't ever turn it down it runs at 100% all the time, so I could definitely and probably would use more power if I had it. But I also don't feel like I am missing out on the full DD experience with the little 8nm motor, it feels nothing like a belt wheel and has plenty of force it just doesn't have the ability to damage my wrists.

 

[a_ekis]

I take advantage of the post to ask about the dd, I own an Osw with mmos software (yes, the first of all) it has never failed and it is going great.

the question is, has the new software and hardware controllers evolved somewhat? Or is it not worth thinking about the change?

For example, moving it to ionicube would be relatively cheap, but I don't know if it's worth it.

 

[Deleted member 1066209]

If you mean Hands Off detection, it doesn't really work as designed, what it does though is cutting torque off during high speed corners, so recommendation is just to turn it off.

I don't think it's Hands Off detection. I've spoken briefly with a SC2 owner in-game, and he's mentioned Hands Off detection as if it was a different setting.

I was wondering whether he had been injured from his wheel when the trolls crash him, and he replied that the SC2 has the ability to minimize such damage. He tells me he doesn't know the name of the setting for such a feature, but specifically mentions "Hands Off detection" later - which leads me to think that they're unrelated.

I don't know though, maybe I misunderstood him. In any case, I'm glad to learn about the unintended effect of Hands Off detection.

 

[Cubus]

A monster no power steering vehicle like Group B could put out 30nm and if you have a look at 100% FFB Challenges on youtube you'll see that its driveable just a lot of work, a genuine physical workout. IIRC modern F1 cars are in the 20nm range. Most streamers and such typically end up in the 12-14 nm range.

I have a CSL DD with the boost kit at 8nm and its enough force to feel the car but I wouldn't ever turn it down it runs at 100% all the time, so I could definitely and probably would use more power if I had it. But I also don't feel like I am missing out on the full DD experience with the little 8nm motor, it feels nothing like a belt wheel and has plenty of force it just doesn't have the ability to damage my wrists.

Thank you!

I think this is what I had in mind when asking the original question.
I definitely have no interest in breaking my wrists or fighting with the wheel, even if it means having less realism.
I'll probably never race a real race car, so I don't need that prep or practice either.

I'm just looking for a very immersive fun 1 or 2 evenings a week.

Thank you all for great info!

 

[RasmusP]

A monster no power steering vehicle like Group B could put out 30nm and if you have a look at 100% FFB Challenges on youtube you'll see that its driveable just a lot of work, a genuine physical workout. IIRC modern F1 cars are in the 20nm range. Most streamers and such typically end up in the 12-14 nm range.

I had some interesting reads from mclarenF1papa and eh.. Kyuubeey about this topic.
Apparently such high Nm would also need to combined with a lot of damping!
So you would have the force, but not the wild beast of a shaking wheel that you can barely hold tight on a straight.
And it also won't insta-wreck your wrist over a small bump or kerb.

These 2 people apparently have analyzed and measured real racing steering racks for inertia, damping etc and know their stuff.

I sadly don't have access to such a wheel to have a go at tinkering with it.
For my engineering brain it does make sense though..

I have a CSL DD with the boost kit at 8nm and its enough force to feel the car but I wouldn't ever turn it down it runs at 100% all the time, so I could definitely and probably would use more power if I had it.

I have a csw 2.5 which is a tiny bit more powerful afaik. 8.5 Nm iirc.
What rim diameters do you use? Just curious!
I used 100% base with 70% game gain in AC when I had my 32cm Porsche 918 rim.
Now I only use 75% base strength and 65% gain with my 30cm and very light weight McLaren v2 rim.

Massive difference between diameters and weight from my experience!

Thank you!

I think this is what I had in mind when asking the original question.
I definitely have no interest in breaking my wrists or fighting with the wheel, even if it means having less realism.
I'll probably never race a real race car, so I don't need that prep or practice either.

I'm just looking for a very immersive fun 1 or 2 evenings a week.

Thank you all for great info!

Where do you live btw?
Simucube 2 is the "standard" right now. Expensive but good value, good support and you can't go wrong it it.

VRS seems to be based in Michigan, US and use "Simucube 1" motors. The famous "small mige".

You can't go wrong with that either.
I would watch some YouTube videos about the software and then decide.

Where you live might be part of that decision too!


If you have the money, get one of these and forget about possible issues.

Moza is quite new and for me personally, it's shiny Chinese "let's get market share in this new trend of simracing at whatever costs".
I can't find any info about the company apart from "somewhere in China, probably".

It can be great, but it's a bit too new and unproven for my taste...

Barry says something about "notchy feeling" and the fanatec wheels are "known" for some issue here and there too.
I for example had a csl DD for a week and at first I didn't update my fanatec driver, my current one was compatible.
Everything worked fine but I thought for a proper test I'd update everything to the latest version.
rF2 had some very weird "steppy" ffb for whatever reason.. AC and ACC were still fine.
No settings changed at all and honestly, there's no setting that would be able to cause such an effect...

Reverted the driver and all was fine again.

With my csw, the steppy ffb wasn't there with the latest version.

That's my experience with fanatec DD stuff...


About how much torque:
As you can see from my current settings with the McLaren rim, I only use about 6.5 Nm of my wheel.
But if I'd like to use a heavier and "real life size" steering wheel in the future, even the full 8.5 Nm wouldn't be enough.

In any case, if you got the money, get one of the known to be great DD wheels. Turn the torque down to 8-10 Nm and be happy.
With the headroom it will last forever and if you want to do anything special in the future, you know it will be possible

 

[Cubus]

Hi and thank you for the response.

I live in Connecticut, USA and my current wheel size is g27 with diameter of ~28cm.
This setup, however, is nowhere near my limits and/or desires.

What I don't fully understand is what Simucube 2 offers above VRS, since it's twice the price.
Simucube admittedly is also more than what I wanted to spend and disqualifying Fanatec left me without non-Chinese / new entries.

What also turned me off from VRS is that the list of supported titles is so short and most are finicky in setup and it seems they developed the DD to support their iRacing school.

https://virtualracingschool.com/academy/hardware/vrs-directforce-pro-wheel-base-settings-various-racing-titles/

Some people on Redit said they got no FB at all.
Do you know if the compatibility would be an issue? G27 is so plug and play that the question of compatibility completely took me off-guard.

Mozaracing.com lists all games at the bottom of the page, which was quite a nice list. It's also an established company but in a different product lines and arguably, they could exit sim racing as quickly as they entered:
"Founded by Automotive engineers and Simracing drivers, Gudsen Moza is a leading innovator in camera stabilization systems (www.gudsen.com) and vehicle stability technology (www.gudsen.ai)."

So, if VRS is not fully supported, Simucube too expensive, Fanatec having product/CS issues, what would you get next?

Thank you!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I don't think it's Hands Off detection. I've spoken briefly with a SC2 owner in-game, and he's mentioned Hands Off detection as if it was a different setting.

I was wondering whether he had been injured from his wheel when the trolls crash him, and he replied that the SC2 has the ability to minimize such damage. He tells me he doesn't know the name of the setting for such a feature, but specifically mentions "Hands Off detection" later - which leads me to think that they're unrelated.

I don't know though, maybe I misunderstood him. In any case, I'm glad to learn about the unintended effect of Hands Off detection.

There is nothing, it has been discussed before as iRacing is notorious for killing users on crashes (high level of realism ). The only thing you can do is to lower max torque at motor level so it never goes to these dangerous levels.