Howto? Initial 180 deg turns Spa and Nürnbergring with a heavy car?

[dud]

I don't get it. For the almost-180 degrees turnaround after the start straight in Spa and Nürnbergring, what do you do if you want to preserve momentum?

I usually do a very hard braking, throw the car around almost in place (with gas if it can understeer) and then step on it from a very low speed (but properly aimed car).

That works for the light cars that I usually drive, but there must be a better way for cars that are heavy and just spend too much time burning energy while sliding around on the tires (or what's left of the tires after 2 laps).

Anybody got some insight?

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Slow in, Fast out.

 

[ricerracer]

Slow in, dab the brakes whilst turning, and fast out

 

[Giovaneveterano]

I'm not sure if it's related with my actual pedals or in general, but I learned the heavier a car is the more gentle you need to be on the brakes.
Instead of slamming the brake pedal all way down in the first meters I'm doing it fast but gentle while the car compresses the front suspensions.

 

[dud]

Hm, yes, I need to pay more attention to the front compression. Another thing I'm missing is using front compression in the moment that I rotate the car, to get more grip on the front wheels instead of just sliding over them.

 

[RasmusP]

Also make sure that you don't overturn the front wheels.
You could activate the understeer effect for some training. Keep it exactly before the point where the wheel goes light. If you don't make the turn, play with the brake pedal.
If you still understeer: you're simply too fast.

Also, depending on the car of course, you might need to change the setup to something more oversteery.
A friend of mine always sets up the cars so he spins when you turn the wheel too much. That's difficult to handle but it sure is fast and sometimes gives me a new perspective of driving style

 

[Augusto Dufloth]

Trail braking

 

[vegaguy5555]

This is where driving a sim falls apart for me. I feel like a surgeon in a real car in comparison, while feeling around in the dark at times with a sim. There are hundreds of little physical details at work in a real car that are just not there/wrong in a sim environment and probably won't be until computers have a few more bits to work with.

 

[dud]

I have been practicing this with some intensity. I still suck with the heavy cars but my driving (of lighter cars ) improved quite a bit.

One problem I had created for myself was that I had originally set my steering wheel to force feedback and center return values that I thought were suitable at the time (very heavy), but now that I started over from defaults I discover that I lost a lot of feedback from when I start shoving a car over the front wheels. I now also have that little mod that helps visualize it.

Realism-wise I have no complaints. With my limited autocrossing I felt that the heavy pigs and the medium weight cars compare in the real world like they do in AC. (I also sucked more in heavy car autocross)

 

[Glaurung]

Slow in, Fast out.

This.

 

[Metla]

Also, Check your replay from behind the car, See if you are really using all the available space the track gives you.

 

[dud]

Also, Check your replay from behind the car, See if you are really using all the available space the track gives you.

I do not, actually. Let's say Nürburgring Sprint first turn. In a heavy car I lose so much speed that I don't have to use the width of the outgoing side of the curve. Depends a bit whether I use an AWD or RWD car. The M4 is just hopeless in that turn.

 

[BhZ]

I don't get it. For the almost-180 degrees turnaround after the start straight in Spa and Nürnbergring, what do you do if you want to preserve momentum?

I usually do a very hard braking, throw the car around almost in place (with gas if it can understeer) and then step on it from a very low speed (but properly aimed car).

That works for the light cars that I usually drive, but there must be a better way for cars that are heavy and just spend too much time burning energy while sliding around on the tires (or what's left of the tires after 2 laps).

Anybody got some insight?

I think there's more of a problem based on what you say. If when entering the corner the rear tyres slide, usually it's because the balance of the car is too much forward, probably because you braked hard and the weight transfered to the front. Sometime it's usefull to brake slightly earlier so that when you are at the turn in point, you are not braking heavily and the car is more balanced. I find this particularly usefull in the mazda mx5 cup for example (i know it's a light car, but the idea is the same). The next step would be trailbraking. Keeping a bit of pressure on the brake will move the weight slightly forward, increasing the grip at the front. It will reduce understeer but if done wrong will increase oversteer and you rear wheels will start sliding again.
Slow in, fast out: correct, but usually there's more than just a simple rule. There are hairpins where i prefer to drive them like if they were double apex (see hairpin at the nurb just before schumacher S), which technically is a fast in, fast out, slow in the middle. It also depends on what follows. Let's say after the first hairpin there's another hairpin. No reason to di the classic slow in fast out since you won't exploit the higher speed once you are out of the corner. On the other hand, if there's a straight, then that's definitely the way to go.

 

[dud]

Is this interesting enough that I can post videos of replays, setup ini files and the like?

 

[RasmusP]

Just look at BhZ's wall of text above your post. He knows what he's talking about, believe me!
So yeah, seems like it's interesting enough for sure!

 

[Turk]

Cars with a lot of performance can just brake late, turn the car around and accelerate out without putting a huge amount of thought into it because you can depend on the cars brakes and acceleration doing most of the work. Corners like turn 12 at vallelunga are like that, you basically come to a stop turn the car around and take off as fast as you can, you're almost dealing with a standing start scenario. I used to turn in late to that corner and try to maintain speed but I saw someone else just dive in and power out and they were much faster, so I copied them. I've since noticed it being done in F1 races.

The only thing I'd do differently on a hairpin is to point the car at the inside of the corner early, almost at the start of braking, because I'm going to be swinging the car around and depending on the cars performance for the most part I feel it's best to just make that corner as short as possible rather than trying to go as fast as possible through certain parts of it.

T1 at laguna seca has two lines, you can attack it aggressively like it's a hair pin as described above, when you start braking point the car at the first apex, keep breaking through that first apex, turn the car in between the two corners and power out over the second apex. Or treat it more like a sweeping corner and turn in later staying close to the inside of the corner.

 

[vegaguy5555]

In a real car sure! With a computer who knows. What kind of wheel do you have? Are you even using a wheel?
Edit @Turk you're right! Sometimes not being in a hurry, stay tight inside and granny it around while everyone else piles up in the middle isn't a bad strategy either. There are just so many veritables to take into consideration! Are you the only car? Are you afraid of getting rear ended? Are you just hot lapping for record time?

 

[dud]

In a real car sure! With a computer who knows. What kind of wheel do you have? Are you even using a wheel?

I bought a whole bunch of stuff, I'm just not sure I'm using it correctly. The three-lever this goes on the table, right, to control the engines in the individual corners like on a ship, right?

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

I usually do a very hard braking, throw the car around almost in place (with gas if it can understeer) and then step on it from a very low speed (but properly aimed car).

Sound good, if you are losing time it's likely too low mid corner speed. At Spa T1 you can carry a lot of speed if you manage to catch the road's camber. This needs a lot of rotation which means braking "enough" and then throwing the car in aggressively. You want to be rotated more before entering cambered section (plus heavy cars have bigger inertia so it takes more effort to do this.)
At Nurburgring there is no meaningful straight afterwards, so no reason sacrifice mid corner speed for exit. Also the mid corner drop needs a lot of developed rotation so, correct speed and aggressive entry.

for cars that are heavy and just spend too much time burning energy while sliding around on the tires

A bit contradictory to the quote above. In this case it looks like you are not braking enough for the corner. Heavy cars burn energy relatively slower than light cars while sliding so at apex you'll have either more speed than the tyres can handle, or an under-rotated car (if you spend too much time trailbraking).

You want to focus on mid corner speed for both turns so: brake enough in straight line and then aggressively rotate the car, you may trailbrake but at turn-in you have to be at correct speed already so that front tyres are dedicated to rotating the car and not slowing it down. With properly rotating car you can have pretty high mid corner speed. This also means no "slow in fast out" which works in bigger radius 180's and these corners are momentum based.

I bought a whole bunch of stuff, I'm just not sure I'm using it correctly. The three-lever this goes on the table, right, to control the engines in the individual corners like on a ship, right?

No silly! Left one is gas pedal, middle is car pitch, and right one is for vintage cars... DUH

Also don't worry about that big spinny thing... it's for trim

 

[dud]

Thanks again.

I think I'll also put a speed trap mid-corner in the nursprint cover. Right now I only have one at corner, which on that track makes no sense.