Jimmy's not wrong, but he's not right either

[Shovas]

You may have noticed a flurry of positive videos about AMS2's latest release, Racin' USA. Well, Jimmy Broadbent noticed and put up a short video about it and his opinions on the latest Racin' USA improvements. Jimmy has such a large audience that his opinion will attract by far the most attention of sim racers, outside of a small subset who know what other channels to watch.

Now, he's not exactly wrong, but he's not exactly right, either. He's probably absolutely right about some of the behaviour of cars over kerbs, or a generally bouncy ride, or the feel of skipping over the road surface as opposed to rolling over it, and perhaps other things.

But when Jimmy contrasts the physics, ffb, handling, and driving experience to titles like iRacing and ACC, I have to question whether he's coming at this objectively and whether he's put in enough time with AMS2 (he admits he has put little time into AMS2).

iRacing's nickname, iceRacing, is well-earned, to this day, even though it's on a physical tyre model. How Jimmy talks about being "connected to the road" in iRacing blows my mind. ACC still exhibits awkward lumbering slides and tyres that feel on edge all the time with little threshold to play.

Yes, AMS2 can and must improve in some areas to really nail the experience, but I feel opinions on what's "realistic" in sims is missing the point, and we really should all know this by now...

Because all sims are pretty bad if you compare to real life driving. If we're honest, they're almost nothing alike, we're just interpreting one mode to another. In fact, when it comes down to "realistic" physics, ffb, and handling...

I suggest a term like "intuitive" is better than "accurate", "simulation", "simcade", or "arcade" to describe the way we interpret sim handling.

For me, rF2 with its rubber grip catching and releasing, is the most intuitive I've felt in any sim, followed by AMS2, no surprise because they're both using physical tyre models. ACC follows after which, for having an empirical tyre model, is actually really good, you can feel a bit more in ACC than other empirical tyre model sims. iRacing follows somewhere after and its hit or miss depending on the car.

What do you guys think? Do we even have an objective way of talking about sim handling? Has Jimmy put in enough time on AMS2 to be objective given he's put in hundreds or thousands of hours on iR/ACC?

Here's Jimmy's video and a response from Ermin Hamidovic:

 

[Gevatter]

I once again do not begrudge Jimmy his opinion, but again it is an uninformed opinion IMO. Like his first impressions on the first beta release, the video once again looks like he spent just the time racing and no more to get the video done.

Here's another take by Empty Box if you have the time:

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Spot on judging by the likes/dislikes ratio

 

[BillGuy]

You know how people sometimes lament “cancel culture”? Well I don’t know about you all, but I’m growing a bit tired of the “compare culture” that seems to have blossomed in the sim world over the past year or so. Sure it’s natural to want to compare and contrast things, but the overall percentage of sim discussion dedicated to that act just seems excessive to me now. It might just be what I personally choose to read or maybe I’m just bonkers, but that’s how I feel.

/Rant

 

[Johnr777]

Im not casting a vote, and im not one who takes any Youtube streamer too seriously... but Jimmy does make good points. He's pretty much calling it a simcade but working towards becoming a sim, which IMO is exactly what's happening.

But yeah, comparing it to iRacing is a bit comical, since it has its own fair share of flaws and limitations, but with a private community, the criticism stays outside the bubble.

Like Jimmy's view on the tires skipping over bumps when they should roll over them ... in iRacing, tires literally and easily roll over everything, including sawtooth kerbs. That's not right either.

 

[b)b]

If you say anything bad about iRacing you directly go to jail, so there's that... You'd better say it is identical to real life. But real life physics can be wrong too vs simrace crowds expectations !

 

[Romandevison]

If you say anything bad about iRacing you directly go to jail, so there's that... You'd better say it is identical to real life.

Where there is the word "iRacing" a priori there is no objectivity.

 

[Jim Layee]

This should be funny

 

[Miguel Batista]

EmptyBox just posted a video that I find quite interesting. Worth a check. He again mentions that he feels the default setups in AMS2 are default settings not an actual setup. Worth taking a look.

 

[Deleted member 1417362]

My go to Sim is ACC - for me this accurately follows a series, models the cars and liveries - when you look at ACC in any screenshot it raises the question "is it real". I don't care it doesn't have tracks that everybody wants (full Nürburgring, lemans) etc because that's not what this simulation is about - its a simulation of a real life series. That for me is where the crossover of simulation or game sits.

AMS2 no doubt has ramped up its graphics level, physics and immersion, PC2 was always "fan boy'd" by Jimmy as that niche market of 3lap/10-15 min videos in VR is pretty much how a large part of his following came about. But to hear Ermin say during his video (My Response to @Boosted Media & @Race Beyond Matter) of how a Porsche feels bouncy over the curbs and nothing like how it felt when he drove there himself said to me the physics - although better are not there yet. I was under the impressions from sim racers and real life drivers feedback the curbs are a no go.

I would say there is x4 categories

1. Game
2. Arcade
3. Simcade
4. Simulation

Opinion is subjective, i think the old saying of "opinions are like ****** - everybody has one" is true.

Personally i'd say AMS2 is a simcade more than arcade as well but then i also think F1 from codemasters is a wannabe simulation but in reality nothing more than game/arcade at best - my opinion.

Is Jimmy right or wrong ? neither its his opinion !, the issue here being though is his opinion has weight and following and as a result he should make sure to invest the time needed to accurately portray that opinion and back it up otherwise they'll be more threads and video responses like this.

 

[Miguel Batista]

brw, here's EmptyBox's video:

 

[dwightyone]

nvm

 

[Shovas]

You know how people sometimes lament “cancel culture”? Well I don’t know about you all, but I’m growing a bit tired of the “compare culture” that seems to have blossomed in the sim world over the past year or so. Sure it’s natural to want to compare and contrast things, but the overall percentage of sim discussion dedicated to that act just seems excessive to me now. It might just be what I personally choose to read or maybe I’m just bonkers, but that’s how I feel.

/Rant

What about "compare culture" when it's used to point out where sims can improve? iRacing can improve its tyre model vs rF2. rF2 can improve its UI vs ACC. ACC can improve its tyre model vs AMS2. AMS2 can improve its handling vs ACC.

I think that's totally a legitimate use of comparisons because no sim is firing on all cylinders yet.

 

[Shovas]

Is Jimmy right or wrong ? neither its his opinion !, the issue here being though is his opinion has weight and following and as a result he should make sure to invest the time needed to accurately portray that opinion and back it up otherwise they'll be more threads and video responses like this.

I'm not one to agree with the idea that opinions are neither right or wrong. They absolutely should be right or wrong, as much as we can.

Who wants to hear "opinions" that are objectively false? Nobody. We all require opinions to have some basis in reality and the more grounded in reality the better.

 

[reshaderacer]

My go to Sim is ACC - for me this accurately follows a series, models the cars and liveries - when you look at ACC in any screenshot it raises the question "is it real". I don't care it doesn't have tracks that everybody wants (full Nürburgring, lemans) etc because that's not what this simulation is about - its a simulation of a real life series. That for me is where the crossover of simulation or game sits.

AMS2 no doubt has ramped up its graphics level, physics and immersion, PC2 was always "fan boy'd" by Jimmy as that niche market of 3lap/10-15 min videos in VR is pretty much how a large part of his following came about. But to hear Ermin say during his video (My Response to @Boosted Media & @Race Beyond Matter) of how a Porsche feels bouncy over the curbs and nothing like how it felt when he drove there himself said to me the physics - although better are not there yet. I was under the impressions from sim racers and real life drivers feedback the curbs are a no go.

I would say there is x4 categories

1. Game
2. Arcade
3. Simcade
4. Simulation

Opinion is subjective, i think the old saying of "opinions are like ****** - everybody has one" is true.

Personally i'd say AMS2 is a simcade more than arcade as well but then i also think F1 from codemasters is a wannabe simulation but in reality nothing more than game/arcade at best - my opinion.

Is Jimmy right or wrong ? neither its his opinion !, the issue here being though is his opinion has weight and following and as a result he should make sure to invest the time needed to accurately portray that opinion and back it up otherwise they'll be more threads and video responses like this.

This is such a powerful post if we consider about it being a game. They are all games to put it so. A game-game, an arcade-game, a kinda-sim-game, and a game-simulation 100%.

I think automobilista 2's major problem is its not 'fun' all over to some just some of the time and to others a lot of the time, in one of those categories. I will admit I have never seen a game be characterized so. How hard are simmers to please any way.

I think maybe they do consider the weight of his opinion yet also, when they sit down to play it for whatever reason they cannot fully enjoy it. Its a game no matter how close it is to a sim.

It could be why its player numbers on a daily basis do not reach 1000 like we know it could. It only reaches one third of that.

 

[sektorao]

Jimmy has the power to make some Hungarian mode for RBR explode, and when he disses AMS2, be sure it will be felt in sales and player numbers. Did AMS2 deserved it? Hell no. Last update kicks ass. IMO people don't like seeing their favourite sim being surpassed by some other sim, and by people i think of iRacing and ACC crowd, that just can't stand some game has better frame rate and VR or tire model than their favourite. I had major problems with AMS2 back in the day, i uninstalled it at some point, but now the game is one solid SP experience.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Twisted logic, why would anyone invest into sim, some even with expensive Season Pass, with the only intent to see it failing. We all want it to surpass or at least match our other favorites, but for many it's just not happening, yet.

 

[Gevatter]

Twisted logic, why would anyone invest into sim, some even with expensive Season Pass, with the only intent to see it failing. We all want it to surpass or at least match our other favorites, but for many it's just not happening, yet.

Are you talking about Jimmy? He got Beta access for free as a review copy, so no investment there and access to everything.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Are you talking about Jimmy? He got Beta access for free as a review copy, so no investment there and access to everything.

Not Jimmy, even that I very much agree with his assessment. My reply was to this.

IMO people don't like seeing their favourite sim being surpassed by some other sim, and by people i think of iRacing and ACC crowd, that just can't stand some game has better frame rate and VR or tire model than their favourite.

 

[Emerson Meyer]

I'm not one to agree with the idea that opinions are neither right or wrong. They absolutely should be right or wrong, as much as we can.

Who wants to hear "opinions" that are objectively false? Nobody. We all require opinions to have some basis in reality and the more grounded in reality the better.

Do you live on Mars? At the age of flat earthers, QAnon, anti-vaccine supporters, etc it´s hard to believe we live on the same planet.

By the way, I have my own opinion. Don´t care about a bunch of youtubers that consider themselves movie stars. Unfortunately A LOT of people are influenced by some random dudes behind a sceen, making easy money. Sad times.