Hello racers, so let me run this by you gents and tell me what you think..So I love AMS2 and I dont mean this as being a problem its just something I have noticed and wonder if anyone else does too..So, when you are in cars that go much faster than the gt3 it seems like the environment does not look right..It is really a non issue with the cars that go slower than gt3 or it might really be more of a question of how open wheel car rotate so much faster..Its not really a big deal and every sim has issues like this especially with VR..The best thing AMS2 does is that it only has a few things that seem to generate as you get closer to them and PC2 is really bad about this..Also they really have to do something about the radical change your tires do at lap 3, its not only non realistic, as in why would your tires suddenly get worse right after they warm up but it can really mess up good races and makes making a set up much harder because you have to go around the track 3 times just to see where you are..I try to always give constructive criticism because I understand this is a work in progress, but please just have the tires stay the way they are when you start the race..Im not sure if this is a hold over from PC2 programing but it does not happen in all cars so I believe it can be fixed..
Lap 3 madness
- Thread starter JohnyUtah
- Start date
Likely because you are overdriving the crud out of your tyres. If this is in the GT3s, they have a lot of early grip that falls off after a few laps especially if you run the TC too low. Check if the temps are hitting 95+ C and adjust your driving accordingly.
To save VR frames, the game renders certain objects at a specific distance, like cones. You can adjust this the way you see fit.
Tires in ASM2 have temperature breakpoints that change the grip level of the tires due to the track, driving style and balance of the car. Overheating tires losing grip is highly realistic. If you feel your car is getting squirrly or understeering, check out the telemetry hud, NOT the widget. The tires may be in a satisfactory grip "window" but there could be temp and thus, a grip imbalance that you will have to account for. For example, if your front tires are at optimum grip, but the rears are overheating, you will have oversteer. The bigger the difference in tire temp from optimum, the bigger the grip imbalance.
I usually try to setup the car and alter my driving style to try to maintain no more than 5-10c difference between the fronts and the rears. If you manage this, it will be a non issue for you.
You honestly think that tires falling off after reaching certain temps as fast as they do in AMS2 is highly realistic? I have nothing whatsoever to base this on, but my gut just has a hard time accepting it occurs as fast in real life as it does in the game.
The change that can happen in the course of one or two laps in the game is something that just feels like it should maybe happen over the course of perhaps four or five laps in real life. Again, a totally baseless assumption on my part but it absolutely takes away from my enjoyment of driving. The suddenness often makes it feel like I just crossed into the next row of some sort of temp-vs-grip lookup table instead of changing as a result of simulated physical conditions.
Now on the positive side, while I may have a hard time personally liking and accepting the behavior, the AI does seem to be impacted by it more or less to the same degree. So at least for me it’s just an “enjoyment of driving” thing and not really a “competition” thing.
Yes, I do think it realistic. You can overdrive a car in three laps. You can overheat the tires in one lap in RL in F1. But what matters here is grip imbalance, not necessarily grip falling off that is causing the oversteering issue.
What's even more realistic is that racing teams and drivers know this and adapt their setup and driving style. You don't see drivers spinning off track after three laps, because they know this and have balance between the front and rear. If you have overheat balance, you simply lose pace and pit for fresh boots if its a qualifying scenario.
To me sim racers that grab a TT "qually" setup and take it into a race, pack on rearward brake bias, don't keep track of tires or car balance or driving style and expect an arbitrary level of consistency is unrealistic.
Some general "thoughts" about that: (small Wall Of Text alert, sorry 'bout that)
One of the reasons, the new gen cars of Stock Car Brasil are running harder compounds by design is their 50% less aero compared to 2019 and before and the associated sliding, that will result out of it.
At tracks like Interlagos, they would make their tires greasy after a short time, so they're not using the soft compounds, the 2019 cars were still running.
Or in F1, where abrasive and hot tracks use a harder compounds even for the soft tires.
For a start to fight the imbalance in front/rear tire bite you could stiffen your front suspension, soften the rear, brake a bit earlier, open your brake ducts more, accelerate a bit later and less abrupt and you will conserve your tires a lot easier. Also have an eye on track and ambient temps, they do matter a lot...
AMS2 also simulates graining and EDIT: several other forms of changes to rubber state/degradation, which means, you shouldn't go 100% on your outlap with many compounds (especially the ones, shown as "soft") or you could achieve a tire, that is not properly universally heated and causing degradation, that will not show in normal "wear" like in scrubbing treads off, but changing the rubber condition.
Tire management is the biggest factor for racing cars by far and often underestimated a lot in sim racing.
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I know about tire temps..keeping them under 95 degrees is step one of any set up..Im telling you its not a question of the tires over heating its a mechanic in the game..I can tell the moment it kicks in, I may have taken a turn multiple time and out of no where the car will have crazy levels of corner entry over steer..Its dramatic and it seems like something that has just recently started happening..I have really only noticed this with the GT3s its a non issue with the vintage cars..Im really just putting this out there to give some feed back just in case they recently made some changes in that department..
I think Reiza are still struggling to understand the tire model. They have improved it but just the fact that we have only 1 dry compound in almost every car tells you they aren't where they want to be with it. I find myself having to have a pretty significant offset in front vs rear tire pressures to have a realistic feel to them. (Pretty much the exact opposite of the setups I see in TT actually.
Now dont get me wrong..So much of AMS2 is great I get the idea that if we all talk about the problems it can seem like thats all that is going on in the game, and that is far from the reality..Its just a desire to see the game be the game we all know it can be..My guess is that the new cars have worked so well because they were built from the ground up..I think the game will do better if the cars are more consistent and yes if you go hard on the tires and for example went about 100c they start having dramatic issues, but not to go from fine at 94 and on ice at 95..My guess is they build the cars on the thought that races are going to be longer, however, the majority of races are 7 to 10 laps and in that case you dont want to deal with a car that is changing every few laps..
My own opinion is that the challenge isn't that AMS2 doesn't simulate enough so therefore is simcade, I think the opposite is true in that so much is simulated that there are a lot of variables in flux. I happen to think that AMS1 and RF2 feel great to drive, however what often isn't talked about are the static or simplified conditions those games use. Things like wind, road temperature etc are all simplified or static in RF2 creating less variables.
I have no doubt Reiza will get there but I think we are a while away from being at a point where most cars feel great. I agree that some of the newer cars feel more believable so hopefully they are going to be able to alter the original content to match it.
I have no doubt Reiza will get there but I think we are a while away from being at a point where most cars feel great. I agree that some of the newer cars feel more believable so hopefully they are going to be able to alter the original content to match it.
Below is the 2019 catalog I found for Hankook’s race tires. Take a peek at page 69. It shows that the operating ranges for their circuit racing compounds span about 40 degrees C.
https://www.hankooktire.com/global/...ankook_tire_competition_tire_catalog_full.pdf
In AMS2 if you have a 10-12 degree C difference between the fronts and rears it’s quite likely to considerably alter the balance of many cars in the game and not for the better. That’s one fourth the real world operating temperature window stated here. Now are the real world tires going to have the same grip level across that stated operating range? No, of course not. But do you really honestly think that having a difference of 1/4 the operating window between ends of the cars seems like a realistic requirement?
Here’s another slightly different one from Pirelli. They say a difference of no more than 25 degrees between front and rear. Doesn’t it seem reasonable that half that allowance should probably still give acceptable performance results without a significant alteration to the balance?
https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/motorsport/all-tyres/products-sheet/slick
These two examples aren’t the entire world of competition tires of course, but they are at least something tangible to look at. Where these two are concerned, they seem to indicate that the game is overly sensitive to temp differences between ends of the car. I’ll happily read any other citations from the real world that people may find which indicate otherwise. Until then, my opinion is going to remain that the game should probably reign in this behavior.
https://www.hankooktire.com/global/...ankook_tire_competition_tire_catalog_full.pdf
In AMS2 if you have a 10-12 degree C difference between the fronts and rears it’s quite likely to considerably alter the balance of many cars in the game and not for the better. That’s one fourth the real world operating temperature window stated here. Now are the real world tires going to have the same grip level across that stated operating range? No, of course not. But do you really honestly think that having a difference of 1/4 the operating window between ends of the cars seems like a realistic requirement?
Here’s another slightly different one from Pirelli. They say a difference of no more than 25 degrees between front and rear. Doesn’t it seem reasonable that half that allowance should probably still give acceptable performance results without a significant alteration to the balance?
https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/motorsport/all-tyres/products-sheet/slick
These two examples aren’t the entire world of competition tires of course, but they are at least something tangible to look at. Where these two are concerned, they seem to indicate that the game is overly sensitive to temp differences between ends of the car. I’ll happily read any other citations from the real world that people may find which indicate otherwise. Until then, my opinion is going to remain that the game should probably reign in this behavior.
Well, I might have been mistaken...Yesterday when I played bathurst with the AMG and Porsche GT3 at turns 5 and 6 on the third lap the car instantly have massive corner entry oversteer..It reminded me of exactly how the 720 would do and I was hoping that they had not brought that mechanic into play with all the GT3s..However, played them tonight on multiplayer and had no issues, so it might have been a one off thing..Also did they do something with BMW GT3 it looks way better inside..
Thank you, yes, tire operating windows and temperature imbalances are realistic and AMS2 takes this into account.
It isn't that difficult to manage for those that are aware of it and since you are, assuming you would also know that a few arb clicks may solve the issue completely, why aren't you telling the op this instead of posting random tire manufacturer marketing materials?
Temps above 10c difference that starts to get squirrly, and above 15c difficult, is perfectly reasonable.
Any simple google search about real world race testing for tires suggests to practically dump manufacturers rules and collect data yourself, I found this one in two seconds in which the tire temp-grip ratio as a reference is very close to AMS2.
https://www.yourdatadriven.com/what-should-the-temperature-of-your-racing-car-tyres-be/
Serious race teams hire full time tire engineers to understand this stuff, now imagine Lewis Hamilton complaining over the radio that his tires might be overheating and Toto Wolff leafing through the Pirelli handbook.
Kidding aside, people have done the work and are trying to tell others what the causes of post-3 lap oversteer issues are, and pose possible solutions that are effective and proven, and yet the conversation degrades to being about someone's subjective inclination about what should or should not be backed by one line stuck in a some marketing materials.
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I don't think there is a general "GT3 cars start to spin on corner entry on lap 5" phenomena. 80% of people seem to drive GT3s exclusively in every sim so surely someone else would have noticed it by now. FWIW, I am able to lap all GT3 cars on default setups and do 5+ laps with no adverse effects (except a slight falling off of lap times) assuming I am not completely overdriving the car. This is something that is happening in a specific case that you need to get to the bottom of if you want to fix it.
For example, are you driving in track conditions of 50+ C? Are you driving with TC off or at very low values? If so, then it's easy to blister the tyres after which you will be skating around. Are your brake ducts open or are the front brakes overheating (800+C)? Instant spin on corner entry when trail braking if they do.
Now I have no doubt AMS2 tyres are more sensitive to temperature changes than older gen sims using "magic formula" tyre models, where temperature effects are baked in as an afterthought and overdriving your tyres doesn't even seem to be possible. For me, that is part of the charm. There are enough sims out there for people who just want to race Monza at noon in optimal track conditions for lap after lap after lap so they can turn a race into a hotlapping competition.
@steelreserv
I view your accusations of me degrading the conversation as really uncalled for. Likewise the “…found this one in two seconds…” comment about the counterpoint evidence to my commentary. Something which I in fact stated I welcomed. The personally directed remarks were really unnecessary here.
I view your accusations of me degrading the conversation as really uncalled for. Likewise the “…found this one in two seconds…” comment about the counterpoint evidence to my commentary. Something which I in fact stated I welcomed. The personally directed remarks were really unnecessary here.
The bottom line is, for GT3 cars in particular its fair to assume the Soft Tires in game are indeed placeholders that must perform a variety of functions. They have to provide max grip and durability at the same time to satisfy the numerous scenarios they are faced with. TT to endurance. Should there be other tire options, yes, would that be more realistic, yes. Its just not the way it is in the sim at this point. It should be in future. (GT3s did have a hard tire option at some point before it was taken away).
The soft tires have an optimal grip peak at roughly 80c-85c during the first roughly 6 minutes of usage, based on degradation. Afterwards, this changes to "normal" grip. The farther from 80c-85c the tire is at that point, based on the track conditions, driving style, and setup after 3 laps can cause grip imbalances. 80-85c is max grip for each phase, roughly 90c-95c is medium, and at roughly 100c, grip starts to fall off rather dramatically. You can certainly control the car with some effort with a fronts at 85c and rears at 100c. Above 100c though is low grip and beyond that it gets worse until the car is virtually un-controllable at race pace.
Also not helping is that fact that tires that are overheated or on the verge of overheating, suffer from accelerated degradation.
So its fair to assume that after 3 Laps of hard driving, the fronts could still be still be at optimal temp, in the qually grip window and the rears are overheated and in the normal grip phase.
In my mind this is unquestionably realistic. A game could set this at 25c based on Pirelli tire data, a game could simply ignore it altogether, a game could set the grip thresholds at 10-15-20c difference. My point is its realistic enough, but the solutions are even more realistic from a mechanical standpoint and a driving standpoint.
The tire temp imbalances are a symptom of known root causes, namingly, a setup that isn't designed for balance but instead for speed (a qually setup), a driving style that aggravates rotation and general lack of player awareness that it is happening in the first place and/or knowledge of the solution.
The solutions are:
- first recognize this is happening in the first place. Not all tracks or track temps are the same so a default setup could work ok in the different places or the same place at different track temperatures.
- second, identify causes.
- are the tires over-pressured or over/under cambered
- if so, change pressures and cambers
- does the car respond to wheel inputs almost too well compared to how the rear of the car reacts
- is this happening on corner entry or mid corner
- if this is the case, it could be a stiffness balance issue, and aero issue or a damper and brake bias issue
- is this happening on corner entry or mid corner
- are the tires over-pressured or over/under cambered
- is the car unlocking on throttle causing to much wheel slip; is the driver power sliding the car on exit
- if this is the case, it could be the differential or due to aggressive throttle inputs.
- a driver could decide to aggressively scrub the fronts on occasion to gain more heat balance as well
- if this is the case, it could be the differential or due to aggressive throttle inputs.
Forgive me for being cheeky, I certainly didn't intend to be accusatory, I just wish these were the conversations that people had in forums here and elsewhere more frequently instead of the: Insert generic driving issue/preference (typically based on experience in other sims) + AMS2 doesn't feel the same = AMS2 is unrealistic.
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Its good that everyone feels free to express there views on the game..Without player feed back the developers will not know what the community is thinking..Every sim has the problem of realism vs fun game play...If real cars acted like any sim you would have 3 cars finishing every 200 lap race..With that said my opinion is that a good sim can have both, which I believe AMS2 does better than the rest..However, they do have to find the balance between punishment and reward for setup and driving style without going to far in either direction.. What I mean is setting up a car and finding every thousandth is the joy of sim racing, going up against others and besting them proving yourself to the universe is the other part..You want a sim that can be detailed without getting in the way with information overload realistic or not...
@BillGuy: A year later and despite the many correct explanations given by many well intending commentators, i can confirm, that even with the great v1.4 AMS2 has still a tendency to spin under braking into the entry of a corner in a pretty sudden way that is different than in ACC, RF2, iR. And I don't know anybody so far who has been able to really pinpoint the cause for this pretty abrupt change of grip (that can happen in the first 1-5 rounds, and later).
I don't say it's a "bug", to me it just seems to be a significantly narrower grip window for the rear tires caused by one (!?) or many factors, compared to other sims.
The difference in front to rear tire temperatures seems plausible, but I wouldn't bet on it, since the unexpected spin can also happen (to me) when temps seem to be ok, and being definitely below 100 C or 95 C.
For a while the best guess was to believe it's a differential issue (that AMS2 was prone to) in combination with high engine braking, but when I tested it with different settings, mainly with the Porsche GT3R, McLaren GT3 and Merc GT3, it didn't seem to have much of an influence. And it can be also (less) experienced with GTEs.
Tl:tr: What you detected is neither trivial nor due to a lack of driving experience, instead it's an AMS2-specific thing that other sims don't have, and which can be tricky when driving on the edge.
Whether this is realistic or not, and under which conditions, I can't tell. But it can quickly ruin your race. Driving at the edge I still find it harder with AMS2 than with other sims.
I don't say it's a "bug", to me it just seems to be a significantly narrower grip window for the rear tires caused by one (!?) or many factors, compared to other sims.
The difference in front to rear tire temperatures seems plausible, but I wouldn't bet on it, since the unexpected spin can also happen (to me) when temps seem to be ok, and being definitely below 100 C or 95 C.
For a while the best guess was to believe it's a differential issue (that AMS2 was prone to) in combination with high engine braking, but when I tested it with different settings, mainly with the Porsche GT3R, McLaren GT3 and Merc GT3, it didn't seem to have much of an influence. And it can be also (less) experienced with GTEs.
Tl:tr: What you detected is neither trivial nor due to a lack of driving experience, instead it's an AMS2-specific thing that other sims don't have, and which can be tricky when driving on the edge.
Whether this is realistic or not, and under which conditions, I can't tell. But it can quickly ruin your race. Driving at the edge I still find it harder with AMS2 than with other sims.
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