Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[HoiHman]

SFX100 + GS-5 + Active (4) belt tensioner + tactile is what i would build

 

[Pablo Roldan]

SFX100 + GS-5 + Active (4) belt tensioner + tactile is what i would build

Sounds very good.The only thing that i have against sfx100 is the noise.Some videos noise looks very bad others not that bad.If i go for it i would buy the DYT MEGA+ Kit from elabs.

I really like PT-Actuators , but that would be giving up on g-seat.Do not know if as an investment would be wiser to buy PT-Actuators and wait some time until i buy the g-seat in a future upgrade

I would love if someone could detail me the differences between SFX100 and PT-Actuators.Why are PT-Actuators twice as much?

Have you had a GS-5?, do you like how it simulates traction-loss

 

[metalnwood]

You can use a gseat with PT no problem.

SFX is DIY, although eracing do sell a kit its going to be cheaper than PT as it is still not a complete product.

I think that the noise from actuators can be picked up on microphones and sound louder than it is. Some motions are louder than others. You can find vidoes of PT where you can hear the same noise as well.

PT is obviously a complete product that should have support/warranty etc. Starting from the price point of DIY SFX, the PT actuators seem very reasonable to me when you consider they have custom parts, a package, warranty etc. If you dont want to DIY its how I would do it. I dont think they are delivering more performance and I like the idea that if something goes wrong with my SFX I know how to fix it, I am the warranty and I know my warranty repair will happen quicker than dealing with a manufacturer.

As I already said, if diy is not on the books I would go PT.

I encourage you not to go for a seat mover, thats my opinion but I know a number that went from seat movers to platform movers with the same opinion. I can't help with TL. I am really not convinced on it until I get to try a good one.

 

[Beef36]

The only thing that i have against sfx100 is the noise.

If this is important, then one option is a refurbished D-Box 4250i Gen 1 (3DoF) basic system (1.5" actuator travel), because it's silent and well under your budget. If you're in USD dollars, the base unit will leave you around $5,000 to purchase other stuff like the G-Belt.

If you want to keep building out your motion platform, then I'd then wait for a better yaw and surge platform and mount the D-Box enabled sim rig on top of that, mainly because adding D-Box surge and yaw is well outside your budget. Motion technology is moving forward so fast that new variants aren't far away.

Motion is great fun, but for me the axis with the most fun is heave. I wouldn't recommend any motion system that didn't have heave. After that, the next best is an active seat tensioner to simulate surge.

I find the remaining DoF are okay for sim racing, but not crucial. In my experience today's traction loss technology is not good enough yet, and I would push it to near the bottom of my priority list until a better solution is available.

If noise wasn't a major issue, then I'd also recommend the GS-5 seat, but I found it too noisy.

Good luck with your search. Adding motion to sim racing will really bring a smile to your face.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Actuators are in the mix for sure. And since G-Seat is that noisy and TL not convincing i might even put all on a DBOX 4250i Gen3 + a G-Belt.This here in Europe is well in the 13000$, but the DBOX surely looks a rounded product.I like the looks better than SFX 100 and Scorpio S actuators which i find very bulky.

I mostly do GT//Formula Racing.The main question is if that 1,5" traveling distance on the actuators might be a bit too short.

Why are DBOX that much expensive?.The only real difference between DBOX gen3 and PT Actuators is no noise from DBOX?.Because ive seen videos of Pt actuators with very low noise..Spec wise PT-Actuators are better with their 150mm stroke lenght and 250mm/s Speed.They even hold more weight.¿Is it the software that makes DBOX perform better or they just dont?.

A DBOX 4250i Gen1 seems to me is going to be kind of hard to get here in Spain, but ill have a look.

​

 

[HoiHman]

D-BOX 4250i G3 Haptic System

D-BOX G3 haptic systems are the only FIA licensed products on the market. The system delivers consistent and versatile haptic cues coming from a wide range of frequencies unique to the D-BOX motion code. These cues replicate large movements such as cornering g forces, but also subtle feedback...

sim-lab.eu

At 10 grand i'm sure this will make you very happy and it's very silent and a PX-1 is included in the price. 1,5" is enough for simracing, although you will have to compromise on tracks the big elevation changes since there's not enough travel left for the larger pitch movements.

I'm pretty sure Simlab will ship to spain without a problem.

But... you will be missing out on the awesome sustained G-forces of the GS-5 seat and still need to add a belt tensioner.

 

[Beef36]

Why are DBOX that much expensive?.The only real difference between DBOX gen3 and PT Actuators is no noise from DBOX?.Because ive seen videos of Pt actuators with very low noise..Spec wise PT-Actuators are better with their 150mm stroke lenght and 250mm/s Speed.They even hold more weight.¿Is it the software that makes DBOX perform better or they just dont?.

D-Box is a publicly listed company and its core product is the commercial application of its motion actuators.

Before Covid-19, sim racing only represented about 10% of D-Box's revenue and while the pandemic adversely impacted one of its primary markets (movie theaters), D-Box is also involved with professional simulators (e.g health, construction, military etc), with software, hardware, reliability, R&D and support to match.

Thus the cost differential can be partly explained by comparing various consumer-spec sim racing motion platforms to the commercial-spec D-Box.

Because the D-Box hardware is so robust, this is why you should consider a second-hand D-Box Gen 1, 4 actuator platform. The approx price is around mid-to-high USD 4K. Even adding shipping from USA, that is well within your budget.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Thanks the infor Beedf36

What about adding first a G-Seat since it can not only do the G-Forces but also bumps and to some extendes heave effects? , that plus de G-Belt and the tactile i already have?.

Do you know of people happy with no motion system but "just" G-Seat and G-Belt?. Sounds like it could be a good starting point and have more thoughts on which Actuators system to add later if any.

 

[Beef36]

Thanks the infor Beedf36

What about adding first a G-Seat since it can not only do the G-Forces but also bumps and to some extendes heave effects? , that plus de G-Belt and the tactile i already have?.

Do you know of people happy with no motion system but "just" G-Seat and G-Belt?. Sounds like it could be a good starting point and have more thoughts on which Actuators system to add later if any.

Starting small and building up your motion platform over time is a great idea. Even just the "G-Belt" on its own is a great start.

Note: G-Seat is marked as a motion seat, and I guess technically it is. It's great for G-Force, it doesn't come close for what a consumer would consider motion.

Personally, I'd prioritise the following order:
1) Tactile Feedback
2) Active Seat Belt Tensioner
3) Chassis Motion
4) G-Force Seat

Thus if you already have tactile, then I'd recommend a G-Belt or equivalent as the next motion upgrade.

 

[d69morpwr]

You can use a gseat with PT no problem.

SFX is DIY, although eracing do sell a kit its going to be cheaper than PT as it is still not a complete product.

I think that the noise from actuators can be picked up on microphones and sound louder than it is. Some motions are louder than others. You can find vidoes of PT where you can hear the same noise as well.

PT is obviously a complete product that should have support/warranty etc. Starting from the price point of DIY SFX, the PT actuators seem very reasonable to me when you consider they have custom parts, a package, warranty etc. If you dont want to DIY its how I would do it. I dont think they are delivering more performance and I like the idea that if something goes wrong with my SFX I know how to fix it, I am the warranty and I know my warranty repair will happen quicker than dealing with a manufacturer.

As I already said, if diy is not on the books I would go PT.

I encourage you not to go for a seat mover, thats my opinion but I know a number that went from seat movers to platform movers with the same opinion. I can't help with TL. I am really not convinced on it until I get to try a good one.

What do you mean its not a complete product? You can order it how you want. They offer it with the Thanos controller which in my opinion is the best way to go and soon will be completely integrated with SRS software. The actuators even come assembled and pretested so guys that want to just bolt it on can. Thats about as complete as you can get.

 

[OlaGB]

I’m considering motion myself, and done alot of research on it.
For me it now stands between Dbox gen1 (used from usa seller), or Sigma DK2..
About the same price for these two alternatives, and enough (for me) motion range at 38mm vs 50mm.

And just to clarify, both are ballscrew design actuators, allthough alot of people actually belive Dbox is magnetic. They are even advertised as ‘patented one nut ballscrew’.

And after talking to Sigma, i’m leaning towards ordering theire DK2 system.. It seems really interesting, how they think and plans ahead, also seeing the level of quality in the build of the system and software.
It also gets great reviews, and they share alot of info on technical solutions, development and plans ahead.

I’m not experienced enough to advice on travel lenght, but most people that does road/asphalt racing seem to agree you want small movement and not a rollercoaster. To be honest, i think i am to old to enjoy being thrown around for hours in the rig, i want fidelity and chassie feedback.

Biggest difference between them i believe is that Dbox is alot more expensive new (so i would buy used) , alittle more quiet, and uses two control boxes instead of one on DK2. Dbox also supports alot more titles.

And while Dbox software apparently generates some canned haptics/tactile like generic rpm, slide vibration, and some kerb/offtrack, DK2 is relying all on ingame telemetry and not making up a feedback they believe you want to feel thats not in the sim. Sigma say they are about to release rpm vibs that actually feels different between motor types for example.
(This is based on my info/research , not experience.)

PT with the new plus drivers would be my alternative if i wanted long travel i think. But that makes you install youre monitor(s) higher and/or further away to clear the rig’s extremity’s when moving.
That’s a big draw back to me with triple 32’s that today sits a few mm clear over the wheelbase for perfect 180 fov and sitting position.
A 150mm motion would either make me look upwards while driving, forcing my wheeldeck down against my legs with the steering wheel sitting too low, or moving monitors 15cm further away.

Then there’s the logistics of cables, big box for motordrivers and some risk of emi issues, which you dont get with Dbox/DK2.

A long reply, but i thought it could be good to share thoughts. Alot of money involved, so it’s good to consider all the details/info available

 

[VisionStreetWear]

...

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I’m considering motion myself, and done alot of research on it.
For me it now stands between Dbox gen1 (used from usa seller), or Sigma DK2..
About the same price for these two alternatives, and enough (for me) motion range at 38mm vs 50mm.

And just to clarify, both are ballscrew design actuators, allthough alot of people actually belive Dbox is magnetic. They are even advertised as ‘patented one nut ballscrew’.

And after talking to Sigma, i’m leaning towards ordering theire DK2 system.. It seems really interesting, how they think and plans ahead, also seeing the level of quality in the build of the system and software.
It also gets great reviews, and they share alot of info on technical solutions, development and plans ahead.

I’m not experienced enough to advice on travel lenght, but most people that does road/asphalt racing seem to agree you want small movement and not a rollercoaster. To be honest, i think i am to old to enjoy being thrown around for hours in the rig, i want fidelity and chassie feedback.

Biggest difference between them i believe is that Dbox is alot more expensive new (so i would buy used) , alittle more quiet, and uses two control boxes instead of one on DK2. Dbox also supports alot more titles.

And while Dbox software apparently generates some canned haptics/tactile like generic rpm, slide vibration, and some kerb/offtrack, DK2 is relying all on ingame telemetry and not making up a feedback they believe you want to feel thats not in the sim. Sigma say they are about to release rpm vibs that actually feels different between motor types for example.
(This is based on my info/research , not experience.)

PT with the new plus drivers would be my alternative if i wanted long travel i think. But that makes you install youre monitor(s) higher and/or further away to clear the rig’s extremity’s when moving.
That’s a big draw back to me with triple 32’s that today sits a few mm clear over the wheelbase for perfect 180 fov and sitting position.
A 150mm motion would either make me look upwards while driving, forcing my wheeldeck down against my legs with the steering wheel sitting too low, or moving monitors 15cm further away.

Then there’s the logistics of cables, big box for motordrivers and some risk of emi issues, which you dont get with Dbox/DK2.

A long reply, but i thought it could be good to share thoughts. Alot of money involved, so it’s good to consider all the details/info available

This is all very good info¡

Thanks a lot for bringing Sigma DK2 on the table. I am going to check reviews.(In fact i saw it long ago but forgot about it)

Is a shame simxperience,dbox and sigma sell only from EEUU.With tax and duties i could end up paying 50% more for their products. But ill have a lot.

Pt actuator even if they have 15cm travel lengh i guess you can narrow it to match that of DK , DBox or to your liking can't you?.Since i am using only VR even if i dont like how bulky PT Actuator are they surely fit my needs.(Didnt know about the risk of EMI issues on PT-Actuators, i did however heard of it on SFX100).

Also for my needs (that i said are mainly Gt/F1 racing) 3 actuators would be enough (2back 1 front)?.

What would be the main difference between 3 and 4 actuators?, because the pitch has to be the same and the roll....lyou feel it less in the feet?.Maybe even for gt/f1 racing that gives you a bit more feeling of being thrown to the sides on curves?

 

[OlaGB]

PT and sfx use the approx same motors and drivers i believe? But lately PT got a driver version that apparently doesnt have the high frequency noise. (This is very important to me atleast). Not sure if the motors alao stops emitting that frequency though.
And i believe PT also use good cables and has alot less EMi issues.

I think PT is a good choice if you are looking for long travel motion.

Simlab sell D’box gen3 (new), they are in Netherland, so within EU..

Ive got to pay 25% tax as well, no matter what system i choose.

 

[wajdi]

PT are working on their own G-Seat with a very silent servo motor.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

PT and sfx use the approx same motors and drivers i believe? But lately PT got a driver version that apparently doesnt have the high frequency noise. (This is very important to me atleast). Not sure if the motors alao stops emitting that frequency though.
And i believe PT also use good cables and has alot less EMi issues.

I think PT is a good choice if you are looking for long travel motion.

Simlab sell D’box gen3 (new), they are in Netherland, so within EU..

Ive got to pay 25% tax as well, no matter what system i choose.

Yes sfx100 is completely discarded.

I am going to start with a G-belt and wait for the SimExperience G-Seat or the PT G-Seat wadji just posted.

Then it is going to be between PT-Actuators and DBOX gen 3 or gen1 second hand

 

[Pablo Roldan]

PT are working on their own G-Seat with a very silent servo motor.
View attachment 510612

 

[metalnwood]

What do you mean its not a complete product? You can order it how you want. They offer it with the Thanos controller which in my opinion is the best way to go and soon will be completely integrated with SRS software. The actuators even come assembled and pretested so guys that want to just bolt it on can. Thats about as complete as you can get.

I mean it is not a completed prodcut. They are as close as you can get but looking at their website I dont see a fully assembled ready to attach unit.

I see the 'DIY Professional', 'DIY Ultimate' 'DIY Mega' 'DIY Mega+' , not a single picture of a fully assembled unit and all kits tell you that they come with all nuts bolts required etc.

In context to my comment about the reasons why dbox is more expensive, they are delivering a completed unit, not a kit, motors attached etc.

It's not a big deal for sure and I didnt make out like it was, thats just how they do it.

 

[d69morpwr]

I mean it is not a completed prodcut. They are as close as you can get but looking at their website I dont see a fully assembled ready to attach unit.

I see the 'DIY Professional', 'DIY Ultimate' 'DIY Mega' 'DIY Mega+' , not a single picture of a fully assembled unit and all kits tell you that they come with all nuts bolts required etc.

In context to my comment about the reasons why dbox is more expensive, they are delivering a completed unit, not a kit, motors attached etc.

It's not a big deal for sure and I didnt make out like it was, thats just how they do it.

I actually just received mine from them. They are assembled and tested before they leave now they just havent had a chance to update the site yet. I just mentioned to them this would be an important feature for some. I didnt care either way i already built mine once. But yes you will have to wire it which is actually super easy. There are tons of good videos so if you have basic knowledge it shouldnt be an issue.

I just upgraded my sfx100 to the 150 actuators from them.