Real Car Buying Decisions using Sim Racing Titles

Michel Bélisle · Feb 26, 2019

Hello,

I am going through a mid-life crisis and suddenly, I would like to buy a RWD stick-shift coupe just for fun. Is it insane of me, to partially guide my decision by test driving cars using sim racing titles?
There is a lot of road cars that are featured in AC, rF2, AMS and others.

I live in Canada. In the market I am in, American muscle cars like Mustangs and Camaros are plentiful on the used market. However, based on my sim racing test drives. I am not sure I want to buy one of these. I would rather prefer a more nimble and better handling car.

I am not planning to buy in the winter months. I am just musing right now.

Do you guys think that sim racing titles are sufficiently advanced to, at least, steer someone in the right direction for a real car purchase?

Hiroshi Awazu · Feb 27, 2019

I suppose to a certain degree but I wouldn't solely rely on sims to make a decision of which car you would like to buy. I'll tell you one thing is that Mustangs and Camaros handle a lot better in real than they do in sims.

Turk · Mar 5, 2019

If your looking for something nibble that's also cheap and cheerful you can't go far wrong with a Mazda MX5/Miata. A hot hatch would be an option too.

RasmusP · Mar 5, 2019

Just because a mustang handles like a boat in sims doesn't mean it doesn't feel pretty stiff and is able to smash your face against the side window in reality.
In sims even gt3 cars feel wonky after too much time in a single seater or lmp car.
You will however be able to pretty much experience how the cars will behave at and over the limit.

As a comparison:
I have a '95 wonky c class and the dtm car in raceroom, back then the chassis was still similar and not a carbon lookalike, feels exactly the same. Just with more power...
That shows how different the experience is between just feeling the wheel and actually feeling everything.

Michel Bélisle · Mar 5, 2019

I have been looking around and I have found a few 2011-2014 Mustangs a reasonable prices. The thing I like about the Mustang is that, if I need to fix it, the parts and labour will be relatively cheap here in Canada. I have also spotted a 2011 BMW 128i at a reasonable price. As for the hot hatches, I have spotted a couple of VW GTIs as well. We are still knee deep in snow here so I am in no rush to buy. I am just looking around and making my mind. Thanks for the info guys.

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 5, 2019

Michel Bélisle said:
I have been looking around and I have found a few 2011-2014 Mustangs a reasonable prices. The thing I like about the Mustang is that, if I need to fix it, the parts and labour will be relatively cheap here in Canada. I have also spotted a 2011 BMW 128i at a reasonable price. As for the hot hatches, I have spotted a couple of VW GTIs as well. We are still knee deep in snow here so I am in no rush to buy. I am just looking around and making my mind. Thanks for the info guys.

My gf had a few Mustangs in the past. First one was a 2012 V6 then traded in for a 2010 GT500 then eventually traded in for a 2013 GT500. After the Mustangs she went BMW for a while and now she just drives any one of my cars.

I'm currently sitting on ten cars so my gf feels no need to own her own vehicle anymore.

I have a friend that owns a 2016 Mustang Ecoboost which has been nicely modified and it is for sale. It has about the same hp as the new Bullitt GT and more torque than the GT350. Not bad for a 2.3 turbo.

Michel Bélisle · Mar 5, 2019

Something that surprises me is the weight of the cars:

2011 BMW 128i => 3,214 lbs
2011 BMW 325i => 3,362 lbs
2011 Ford Mustang V6 => 3,453 lbs
2011 Ford Mustang GT => 3, 605 lbs

In sims that I have tried, AC, R3E or GT Sport, the Mustang GT always feels like a behemoth.

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 5, 2019

Michel Bélisle said:
Something that surprises me is the weight of the cars:

2011 BMW 128i => 3,214 lbs

2011 BMW 325i => 3,362 lbs

2011 Ford Mustang V6 => 3,453 lbs

2011 Ford Mustang GT => 3, 605 lbs

In sims that I have tried, AC, R3E or GT Sport, the Mustang GT always feels like a behemoth.

Oh the Shelby's of the similar years were even heavier. They were tipping the scales at around 3900 lbs. But i will state once again that Mustangs in real behave a lot better than they do in sims. My 07 Audi RS4 is like 4000lbs,my 2015 991 Turbo S weighs almost 3600lbs and my 2018 SRT Trackhawk weighs in at 5500lbs. Even my 04 Golf R32 is heavy at 3400lbs.

Todays behemoths for the most part handle a lot better than they did in the past.

RasmusP · Mar 5, 2019

The BMW 1er I know about personally all have massive problems and were kind of a pain for the owner. Not really the best thing BMW built there. Especially the earlier ones!

Honestly I'd just grab a mustang. Like you say it's easy, rwd, nice sound. Just a fun car and definitely plenty enough of grip and power to make you grin from ear to ear throughout your mid life crisis.
I know I always grinned when I was offered a ride in one

You also don't want too much grip. I once was a passenger in a BMW 640d with unbelievable torque and 313 hp. BMW xdrive and fat tyres.
We went to an empty parking lot and that car had so much grip that the force you needed to make it go sideways was frightening and not much fun...
A beast of a daily driver and autobahn cruiser with lots of safety headroom compared to other cars on the road but the simple things we men enjoy like going into a wide corner pretty slowly and then drift out of it... That's probably nicer in a simple mustang

arthur666 · Mar 6, 2019

I drove a 2017 Mustang EcoBoost w/performance pack and a 2011 BMW 128 M-Sport back-to-back (and a Focus RS) at VIR last November, both mostly stock, both manuals. The Mustang felt firmer and more composed under hard braking, but heavier. 128 felt like a marshmallow in comparison. I liked the 128, but I was expecting it to be sportier.
And my God, the 4cyl Mustang sounds so much better with a good exhaust. This one had been outfitted with a MBRP Race catback. Sounded mean, similar but a little bit snarlier than the Focus RS. Stock Mustang EcoBoost sounds terrible.

Michel Bélisle · Mar 7, 2019

I have been reviewing and shopping cars for about two weeks now. I am always hesitating between two extremes:

Buy an old car, fix it and upgrade it over time.
Buy a newer car and just drive the damn thing.

In both cases, it is an expensive proposition. There are days where I am wondering if, instead, I should just spend more money on my sim racing rig instead?

The reality is that, the number of occasions where I will drive that new car to some limit, to induce some goofy grin on my face will be rather limited. I have started looking at racing schools, autocross meetups, hot lapping clubs and such. I have found a few but none of them are near where I live. Not too far either, 2-3 hours drive to get there but, in the end. I fear that I am just going to blow money on equipment that will require constant maintenance in the long run.

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 7, 2019

Even though I do not get any track time with my vehicles I still really enjoy driving the real thing over sims. I'm a simple sim setup kind of person, don't spend a whole lot of time behind a screen anymore so a simple setup is all I need.

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 8, 2019

arthur666 said:
I drove a 2017 Mustang EcoBoost w/performance pack and a 2011 BMW 128 M-Sport back-to-back (and a Focus RS) at VIR last November, both mostly stock, both manuals. The Mustang felt firmer and more composed under hard braking, but heavier. 128 felt like a marshmallow in comparison. I liked the 128, but I was expecting it to be sportier.
And my God, the 4cyl Mustang sounds so much better with a good exhaust. This one had been outfitted with a MBRP Race catback. Sounded mean, similar but a little bit snarlier than the Focus RS. Stock Mustang EcoBoost sounds terrible.

Yeah, for them 1 series I would skip on the 128i and go straight for a 135i. It's too bad that the 1M is still so damn expensive here in Canada. Oh the 235i M is a good one too.

So how did you like the Focus RS? I had a 2016 for a several months. I found one at a repo dealer for a really good price so I picked it up, drove it for a while and then I sold it. That was one serious hot hatch, I sort of regret selling it. My current hot hatch is a 2004 Golf R32. It may not be the pavement pounder like the RS but still a very cool car to say the least. I absolutely love the exhaust note the comes with the VR6.

arthur666 · Mar 8, 2019

Hiroshi Awazu said:
So how did you like the Focus RS? I had a 2016 for a several months. I found one at a repo dealer for a really good price so I picked it up, drove it for a while and then I sold it. That was one serious hot hatch, I sort of regret selling it. My current hot hatch is a 2004 Golf R32. It may not be the pavement pounder like the RS but still a very cool car to say the least. I absolutely love the exhaust note the comes with the VR6.

Love that VR6 too.

As a modern car with crazy tech, I really like it. I've spent a lot of time in the RS, daily driving and track. It's my dad's weekend/trackday toy and I ended up breaking it in for him with my commute. Got it new back in 2016. He wanted a Ford that's fast, but easy to drive, and it fits perfectly. I'm not a great driver, but it makes me feel like a hero at VIR (and then I end up getting sloppy and heavy footed).

Not mine so I'm pretty gentle with it, never tried drift mode or anything. Stock, except for Carbotech pads.
Honestly though, for pure fun on the track I prefer the Fiesta ST. Driving one for the next couple of months and it's my favorite Ford.

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 10, 2019

@Michel Bélisle

There is one car i should mention as it is part of my fleet and that is the Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 w/6spd manual. Mine is a 2010 with the GT package. Surprisingly quick, 305hp, rwd and the price for used is fairly cheap. I got my 2010 for under $10k CAD.

Michel Bélisle · Mar 11, 2019

Hiroshi Awazu said:
@Michel Bélisle

There is one car i should mention as it is part of my fleet and that is the Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 w/6spd manual. Mine is a 2010 with the GT package. Surprisingly quick, 305hp, rwd and the price for used is fairly cheap. I got my 2010 for under $10k CAD.

@Hiroshi Awazu
I have been watching a lot of Youtube videos and that one comes up regularly. However, people keep complaining about reliability issues with the transmission. Also, it might be a negative or a positive depending how you look at it, it seems that car has a loose rear end. It seems prone to throttle oversteer.

Can you confirm or deny that from your own experience?

Hiroshi Awazu · Mar 12, 2019

I was not aware of the reliability issues of the transmission. Is that for auto or man trans?. The reviews that you've seen were they done by young padawans that bag on their cars?. Well mine is a first gen model with almost 200000 kms on the clock and mine runs great. My car was well kept by its two previous owners and I plan to keep things the same way.

As for the loose rear end. My car has Bilstein B8's with Eibach springs, Sways and links and Michelin Pilot SS for tires so my car behaves differently than stock. The previous owner did the upgrades.

This car in stock form is better balanced than the V6 versions of the Mustang, Camaro and the Challengers of the same model years.

Kurupt CDN · Mar 12, 2019

Michel Bélisle said:
I live in Canada. In the market I am in, American muscle cars like Mustangs and Camaros are plentiful on the used market.

From a fellow Canadian to another....there is a reason why there are so many available.

Middle aged men bought them than realized the cost they paid for them was a waste of money cause you can only drive them for 3 months out the yr. The other 9 months it will look good in your garage lol

I've owned an Audi S3 and S4 both awd, absolutely loved them till winter hit.
Here in Calgary where snow removal is non existent they were simply to low and caused alot of underbody damage.

Personally I'd look into an old subby...you can get one imported for under $7k and you can use yr round.

And no I would not base a car off of how it feels in a sim

Michel Bélisle · Mar 12, 2019

Hiroshi Awazu said:
I was not aware of the reliability issues of the transmission. Is that for auto or man trans?. The reviews that you've seen were they done by young padawans that bag on their cars?. Well mine is a first gen model with almost 200000 kms on the clock and mine runs great. My car was well kept by its two previous owners and I plan to keep things the same way.

As for the loose rear end. My car has Bilstein B8's with Eibach springs, Sways and links and Michelin Pilot SS for tires so my car behaves differently than stock. The previous owner did the upgrades.

This car in stock form is better balanced than the V6 versions of the Mustang, Camaro and the Challengers of the same model years.

A mixture of old and young reviewers on YouTube so far. For the manual tranny, people complain that it does not engage well on the first 2 gears. It seems that you need to rev match perfectly to get the tranny to engage. As for the automatic, some reviewers just report that they have a fairly significant failure rate and that the auto trannies need to be replaced often. The reviews that mention that are usually from owners that explain the woes that they have encountered over time.

As is often the case, it seems to be a hit and miss proposition. Some people rave about their car other do "5 things I hate by my car" videos.

It is a bit similar to reviews about BMW cars. Some people will rave about the reliability of their cars others will say these are the worst cars to buy used due to high maintenance costs. As for the BMWs, people consistently complain about two things:

After 160,000 km, you might need to replace the water pump. Replacing the water pump is costly because the pump is hidden in an hard to reach area of the engine.
Over time, seals, gaskets, o-rings and such start leaking fluids. I think that this is due to people using these cars over long periods of time. It is not uncommon for BMW cars to go through several owners over a few decades. So, it makes sense that these kind of issues come up more often in that context.

Michel Bélisle · Mar 12, 2019

I must admit that I am increasingly intrigued about AWD cars. At first, I was considering RWD only. Now, I am not so sure anymore. I am also considering FWD hot hatches aw well. As you can see, I am all over the place.

The more I do research, the more I am confused. I wish I could just win the lottery. I would get myself a Ferrari 458 Italia and call it a day...