rF2 vs the real world

[durielk]

OK, I been running rF2 for quite a while, mostly GT3's and other similar mods.
I do my own setups using Motec and develop/modify them for each race track to balance the car and decrease lap times.
Many times after a week of practice I show up at the track on race day and everyone is 2-5 seconds/lap faster than I am. At times I have been passed a setup from another driver, sometimes I have run those setups.
Some of those received setups upon observation seem really wacko to general engineering analysis, but on the track do actually go faster than what I developed.
Does anyone here have any actual racing experience that can substantiate that these setups we generate are anywhere near the actual setups they use on the real race cars.
.... or is it really just a fantasy world we are all wrapped up in and that just let it go that it relates anything to the real world?

 

[MarcG]

All Sims suffer from possible setup "exploits", remember we're not racing a 1:1 Simulation here, each Sim has it's own set of limitations and how it goes about creating the "Reality" inside our PCs. With those limitations in mind you need to find what works best for that particular Sim, whether it be a strange Wing Angle or Tire Pressures it doesn't matter, you have to let yourself go of what works on the Real Race Track and concentrate on what works on the Sim Race Track.

That's not to say Real Life setups won't work, sometimes they can and they're just fine, but the Aliens out there build their Setups to what the Sim is capable of, not necessarily what is supposed to happen in Reality.

 

[durielk]

... so Marc, you see these simulations as I am at this point. The really are not simulations, they are games. Simulations should actually emulate reality. We are in a car, we appear to be on a track, traveling at a high rate of speed. But, from your statements and my analysis, we are playing a 'game', not a a simulation.

 

[mesfigas]

The curent state of sim games is very enjoyable
good physics and very good detailed FFB
plus the fact that now more than ever more and more people around the worls enter this genre wich means more and more developing from software companies.
Now.
the fact that the setups can be exploded and let users take advance of their exploits is really sad.
but lets hope that the developers will try to give a software less exploitable

 

[dajdosta]

... so Marc, you see these simulations as I am at this point. The really are not simulations, they are games. Simulations should actually emulate reality. We are in a car, we appear to be on a track, traveling at a high rate of speed. But, from your statements and my analysis, we are playing a 'game', not a a simulation.

Rf2 and current "sims" are simulators because they try to simulate as much of the real vehicle as they can. Lack of some features and inaccuracies don't change that.

 

[durielk]

OK, my post is to draw on the experiences of 'sim racers' that have actually driven & setup a race car like a GTE/3 etc. And to move towards an understanding that these setups/FFB/driving experiences actually match the rear world.
If you really never drove one or set one up for a race, please do not post how realistic everything is in the sim, because, .... you never been there and done that. I'm not trying to start some big arguement or dis the 'sims'. Honestly I never raced a car, this is just a 'realistic' question.

 

[dajdosta]

I was responding to your "definition" of a simulation.
According to you nothing can be defined as a simulation.

 

[durielk]

Please go argue somewhere else.
I disagree, I have done a lot of simulations that are very real in the application of real world situations and physics. Flight simulators, WW2 simulations, etc. that I consider very accurate in comparison to the 'real' world.

 

[MarcG]

Please go argue somewhere else.
I disagree, I have done a lot of simulations that are very real in the application of real world situations and physics. Flight simulators, WW2 simulations, etc. that I consider very accurate in comparison to the 'real' world.

All of which will have limitations in some shape or form including the very best Flight Sims, you don't seem to understand that point, you cannot simulate 1:1 at least not yet and certainly not in the near future. No racing sim is perfectly similar to read life, understand that and deal with that then you can learn how to create setups that work for each car whether they are like their real life counterparts or not.

Finally please show a bit of politeness, this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to post their thoughts whether you like it or not

 

[Jim Layee]

All of which will have limitations in summer shape or form including the very best Flight Sims, you don't seem to understand that point, you cannot simulate 1:1 at least not yet and certainly not in the near future. No racing sim is perfectly similar to read life, understand that and deal with that then you can learn how to create setups that work for each car whether they are love their real life counterparts or not.

Finally please show a bit of politeness, this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to post their thoughts whether you like it or not

A great example of this F1 , they model and simulate new parts over and over again but sometime they fail to work to spec once on the car.

 

[durielk]

This is my thread, to discuss the 'real' part of the sim.
He should so some politeness not to dis my thread.
I don't want this thread to be all cobbled up with he said/she said & it's a sim so just suck it up BS. I'm sorry if I hurt little joey's feelings, buck it up.
.. of course a sim is a sim. WTH, I'm trying to determine just how similar it really is. Do you know?

As an example of what I'm talking about....
In Motec are the tire temps similar to what actually happens on the track?
Are the camber/caster/toes that the fast guys run very similar to what a real race car is?
In most mods tire # is run at a minumum to max grip, this item right here is very suspect as false. Do all race cars run the absolute minimum # dictated by the tire manf ?

 

[davehenrie]

This is my thread, to discuss the 'real' part of the sim.
He should so some politeness not to dis my thread.
I don't want this thread to be all cobbled up with he said/she said & it's a sim so just suck it up BS. I'm sorry if I hurt little joey's feelings, buck it up.
.. of course a sim is a sim. WTH, I'm trying to determine just how similar it really is. Do you know?

As an example of what I'm talking about....
In Motec are the tire temps similar to what actually happens on the track?
Are the camber/caster/toes that the fast guys run very similar to what a real race car is?
In most mods tire # is run at a minumum to max grip, this item right here is very suspect as false. Do all race cars run the absolute minimum # dictated by the tire manf ?

That is a known fault with the S397 tire model. You SHOULD be faster with low tire pressures, due to an increase in the contact patch spreading out. However, you also SHOULD suffer a penalty after X amount of laps as the tire over-heats from squirming. rF2 does not represent this well. However the other benefits of that rF2 tire model are far and away surpassing other sims, even though we would love to have more features brought in.
At the last Sebring IMSA 12hr race, A driver had covid and the team brought in a substitute. He had never raced at Sebring before but went home before catching his flight and ran some laps to learn the track. He Obviously didn't learn setups from such a short practice, but the home sim provided enough simulation that he learned the track and adjusted quickly once he arrived. So if the product is Simulator enough to allow proffesional drivers to learn a track, then it rises above the merely game label. How far above?? I think 10 years from now we will marvel at what is possible then and laugh at what we called cutting edge now.

 

[durielk]

DaveH, I agree that the sim should be awesome for learning a track. Clearly a day of freshening up the mind on the layout & flow would be very beneficial to one making an emergency trip to jump in a car on the track.

Many times I'm in the sim at the race and one who is faster than me comments that they are using the default setup. It just feels weird that I spend time going over motec outputs to arrive at 'my setup' only to be passed/and/or/lapped by someone that spent 10 minutes learning the track with the default setup. Usually I am faster on a section or 2 due to this, but overall it really doesn't make much difference.

 

[Emery]

OK, my post is to draw on the experiences of 'sim racers' that have actually driven & setup a race car like a GTE/3 etc.

It is rare for a GTE/GT3 driver to have actually performed the setup on their race car. Most of the time, they provide feedback to the race engineer and he is the one who has the crew do the setup changes. You might want to discuss setups with @mclarenf1papa

 

[mclarenf1papa]

It is rare for a GTE/GT3 driver to have actually performed the setup on their race car. Most of the time, they provide feedback to the race engineer and he is the one who has the crew do the setup changes. You might want to discuss setups with @mclarenf1papa

As long as I don't have to talk about my opinion of RF2

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

Hey

Programmers do their best to simulate lets say Camber angels . etc...
But they can of course never simulate everything on a real car 100 % ...they will estimate

So as a sim racer one has to find the limitations within the specific simulator !
Setups looking weird is perfectly normal in Simracing ( because its not the real world ) .

Personal preferences in the setup can also make it look weird ( if you have received a setup ).

Motec do work for some -I don't understand Motec ..

I am lucky because I understand what most of it will do physic wise when i adjust things .
Bottom line Yes those setups can sometimes look strange -and I don't think they relate to the real world ...

I have driven Karting when i where younger so only a few things I can compare .
1. getting heat into the tyres takes a bit longer in the real world .
2. Rear roll bar stiffness effect is spot on the same as in real world .
3. In Karting Caster is often very high ( will give you stabil turn in ) will mostly give the same effect in Sims..........

 

[durielk]

Hey guys, thks for the info / response. Being an engineer, I'm kinda a numbers guy, so I was just wondering what the state of the art is TODAY! I do think rF2 does simulate the feel of a car (in my setups), so I'm good.

Stig mentions 'caster', I like playing with that, but most rF2 sim's don't allow that.

 

[prceurope]

This video deserves a lot more views: