SEASON 9 RACE 3 INCIDENT REPORT

Before answering your tricky question I like to clarify something about the number plates in the braking zone, because I think Kurt and you miscounted them so it could become confusing.

Davids "slow-mo-vid" proves that there are 3 number plates counting up from the corner as follows: 100 - 150 - 200 (between 150 and 200 a white line crosses the road).

As a reference my braking point in attacking mode is ~ 20 m after the second number plate (~ 130 m). In normal stint mode it is at the second number plate (~ 150 m) and in caution mode, following few cars it could move back close to the third number plate (~ 170 m to 190 m).

So from what I see in Davids slow-mo-vid stopping at ~ 25 seconds you were still on full throttle at ~ 160 m. Ok, the replay has a short delay so I assume you braked at ~ 170 m (reminding ~ 150 m is my usual braking point).

In my eyes that's ok but not leaving much room if the guys in front have some trouble and/or brake very early too, because of giving themselfs enough safety margin to the car in front.

[...]Isn't it impossible to race if you can't exploit the situation and make a careful attempt to come up level with the car ahead, [...]? [...] If there are more then one car close in front should you go in to a "only watch from far behind" mode so you don't interfere in their racing?

Well when I follow a pack I keep a safe distance and wait until things have settled and positions have sorted. It depends on the exact situation but so to speak you're right. You can't really "race" in such a situation and sometimes better go into "wait and observe" mode.

I take my last Sepang race as an example. I started from 11th and followed a few fighting packs through the first stint. In the most situations I waited until the front runners made a mistake or the faster one had overtaken the slower one so it was my turn to attack the slower one then. Into that process of "waiting" I even lost a position sometimes but finally it paid of.

[...]Isn't it impossible to race if you can't exploit the situation and make a careful attempt to come up level with the car ahead, as he has slowed down very early.[...]

From my observation of Davids vid you aren't doing it carefull enough. In my eyes you could have braked even at ~ 180 - 200 m, approaching to the cars in front by coasting in the last part of the braking zone. In addition this would have given you a better opportunity to "drive arround" David on the outside (maybe touching grass) as you weren't braking hard anymore and therefore able to turn.

Btw, at such places with long straights followed by a slow corner there's no need to catch up with the front pack in the beginning of the corner. If the guys in front have a fight they'll most likely have a worse entry, a worse corner speed and a worse exit speed. So if you do the "brake-early-then-coast-approach" you maybe able to take that corner perfectly. So you won't close up with them in the beginning of the corner (dangerous) but close after the exit. Now they take notice of you being involved in the fight too and maybe now it's your turn to outbrake one of them. If they took the slow corner well instead and you can't get close enough after the corner then the same procedure should repeat.

Note: That particular place is the most tricky one in this matter as we have lowest possible downforce and highest possible speed there. So 20 meters could mean nothing if one makes a tiny mistake, be it a slight lane change on the one side or a slightly too small safety margin added to the usual braking point on the other side.

PS: This long post (sorry for that) is not meant to transfere some more blame to you Valter. ;) I only want to express how many factors need to be considered when racing and that understanding them and making the right decisions can sometimes be a very tough or nearly impossible task. (I'm certain I still haven't learned and experienced everything myself about racing yet :whistling: )
 
If there are more then one car close in front should you go in to a "only watch from far behind" mode so you don't interfere in their racing?

No mate. We must do our race, whatever that may be. I took advantage of you allowing Tim past to get a run on you down the straight. Sort of the same thing?

But at a track like Singapore, "only watch from [not too] far behind", is probably the order of the day for many of us. ;):)

Nico, agreed :)
 
Ok guys, thx for answering. You answered about the responsibility. Yesterdays news.

I have a new question:

Is it okay to change from defensive line to the racing-line in the braking zone to get a better angle going into the turn and thereby closing the door for the faster car?

I can change my approach if everybody thinks the same way about it. And so far there are a lot of different opinions about the line-change. If we all decide to say it's okay to change race-line in front of an approaching car, I will start driving like that, no problem.

And once again, this is only about the future races not the incident.
 
There is a need for clarification of what I should have done in the slowdown to Rettifilo. [...]

Sorry for the missunderstanding Valter. From your above sentence it looked like you still asked for clarification on the incident. However, most of the things I wrote are about general recommendations when following a bunch of cars... ;)


I'd support a general one-line-change-rule with the exceptions Nico suggested already (see below). That idea makes sence to me. :thumbsup:

[...]In my head the one move rule covers moving while braking. Think of it this way;

you are never allowed to move more than once except:
-If there is no car behind you (eg. within 1,0 second)
-If the defending car follows up with a defensive move (but you still need to consider the car behind if there is one).
-If you are trying to avoid an incident (emergency)

(I will not mention braking the tow anymore as that is covered by the wording in the rule.) [...]
 
Thanks Reik! I feel a great relief ;) You and me support the following directives:cool:
you are never allowed to move more than once except:
-If there is no car behind you (eg. within 1,0 second)
-If the defending car follows up with a defensive move (but you still need to consider the car behind if there is one).
-If you are trying to avoid an incident (emergency)
Only twenty more supporters missing then.
 
I do have one question, not the right thread but i go anyway. EDIT: +1 ^^

Take monza mainstraight as an example, foget all the bruhahaa, it's just a convenient place for the question to follow..

I'm defending and we both come from the parabolica using the normal race line, both lining our self to the left side. Attacker is making his move to the right, there is still room between us. Am i allowed to change my line at this point? I've not done this (i think...) simply because i was afraid it might be judged as blocking. So i've chosen my line inside during the corner exit phase and stuck to it, even when one-move rule would allow me to change my lane. But there has been numerous times when i could've chosen my line later.. Also if i choose my drivingline to be the inside at the beginning of straight, before the exit, am i allowed to return to racingline since i have never been in it in that straight? This all of course when there is still room for the maneuver, wouldn't change my line if i can't see the whole car from the mirrors. EDIT: and not on the braking phase.

That latter is very hard to judge when the corner exit actually is.. In parabolica, i estimate it to be the point where your front tires are starting to grip and you have the option to choose the racingline.. Well before the pit entry is visible. Some would say it's further down the road but my interpretation is the point where i can choose my line (enough grip to do so) without affecting the overall speed. It's a bit earlier than what diagrams would say, those are usually concentrating on the ideal line, not what is possible to accomplish with a little tire sacrificing.
 
Only thing i can add to Reiks post Valter for your 1st question is sometimes if Im following battling cars into a heavy braking zone like that i would also take the braking in 2 stages, i would slow down early n fast to start with but not fully and when at slower speed try and close the gap to car ahead :thumbsup:it then gives you opportunity to also continue braking if someone made a mistake or pass and people were extra slow ahead.


On your 2nd Valter, Nicos ^+1 :thumbsup:

I think that would be fine Kennet aslong as you say, when you go to move theres enough space for guy to react and go to other side, if your move impeded there acceleration might be different. I tend to take up position i want early for instance if Reik (big if :giggle:) was coming right behind me and looked like he may get run along by end of straight id take inside line early. I think earlier i do this guarantees me the inside line and also avoids any confusion, Reik would know if to pass me, he would be going to outside to pass so safer for everyone.:thumbsup:
 
First of all, as Valter sais, this is jsut about what to do in future races, not to place blame (which really always should be the case).

Isn't it impossible to race if you can't exploit the situation and make a careful attempt to come up level with the car ahead, as he has slowed down very early. Note that the collision occurred 75 meters before the chicane. How should this have been done? If there are more then one car close in front should you go in to a "only watch from far behind" mode so you don't interfere in their racing? Reik? Sean?

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking, that is why i initially said that I would have done the same as you Valter (explot the situation) and why I said it was 100% David's fault. However, in the name of diplomacy, and that everybody else than me placed some blame on you (including yourself), I ended up saying that you could have considered braking a few meters earlier for better control, but that was really "just to be nice" ;)

Now let me say, it is the way I word myself that leads to these misunderstandings. When I say it was 100% David's fault I mean that the logical solution to this incident is to avoid that unecessary lane change. Not that David should have been aware of this and therefore is to blame. Just that it is the simplest and most logical way to prevent it happening again.

In other words, if we follow the new wording of the rule, Valter's "attackive" move will be quite safe.

Also Valter, I think I get your point about the 75 meters. Your point is (if I understand you correctly) that you did brake slightly early to allow you some margins, but that does not help much when it happens at 75 meters, it comes in hand the last 20 meters maybe. And I think I agree.

EDIT: I wrote this post not knowing that anybody else had replied (it was on page 3 ;)), not that it changes much. But it seems you all agree with me, that if we follow the new wording of the rule Valter's "late braking" is no issue anymore :)
 
Thanks Sean, that's what i meant. If the following car needs to break because of my one-move, it's blocking. It won't change my attitude in anyway, there are very few battles for me anyway but it might come in handy when defending in places like Kemmel straight when there is more than enough time to decide. If i'm not sure, i'll stick to the racingline. I'll probably get to use this once or twice in the whole season anyway, just don't want to hesitate at all when the situation arises, hesitation leads to poor decisions, huge reaction "lag", vague movements etc. There has been situations where i could've kept the inside line safely but wasn't sure, hesitation has lead to no defense more than once.

I think i have no issues unclear anymore, all my questions have been answered.
 
I liked your question Kennett, and I agree with Sean. Personally I would usually not do it, because it would be safer to stay where I am and fight the battle from there. But if it was closer to the end of the race, and I was fighting hard for position, and Peter was behind, I probably would have made that defensive move ;)

One more thing, I do not think you should be anywhere else than on the left side when exiting Parabolica. Particularly now, with the "new racing line rule", we need to think that racing line is predictable, and there should be a good reason for not being on it :)
 
Yeah, i know that in Monza, it was just an example, i didn't include pitentry/exit or cutting there, parabolica/main straight is just so classic example or a straight where drafting occurs in such extent that 30-40m gap may be 0 at the end of straight very easily so mid-straight move is possible... Maybe i should've used Korea but then again, not many have driven there (it's wonderful track, one of Tilkes absolute best before the US GP is finished..)
 
+1
For the record :)

you are never allowed to move more than once except:
-If there is no car behind you (eg. within 1,0 second)
-If the defending car follows up with a defensive move (but you still need to consider the car behind if there is one).
-If you are trying to avoid an incident (emergency)

(I will not mention braking the tow anymore as that is covered by the wording in the rule.)

On those very rare occassions when it is possible, I do enjoy going side by side through a sequence of corners. This is only possible when both drivers stick to their lanes and leave each other room instead of closing the door. It is not very F1 though...


P.S. there is a LOT to read again.
 
I went skiing...

But now I have caught up with this thread. Quite a read. Couple of quick notes.

Firstly I agree with David's point that I too have had more incidents than I should have this season. It's my intention to improve. I have no doubt that this is due to my also being one of the more aggressive drivers on the track and as Nico rightly pointed out, I still have visions of keeping up with Reik (and sadly now Sean as well) which doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

Secondly, I am all for clarifying the overtaking rules but I think there is a simpler and more effective (though we still need to be clear on the rules) solution. Back in the good old days... I would have overtaken someone at every point on a track several times in the week leading up to the race. I would have had many incidents on the 5 lap server as we had 5 lap races in Q trim. By race day I knew which corners were a 90% fail for overtaking. I knew when to back out if someone had taken the inside.

The way we practice seems to have changed. I'm certainly not on the servers at the same time as most people. We have talked a lot about prioritising stints over Q practice but I think we should also think about prioritising 'racing' practice over 'time trialling'. You only need one other guy. Just do some laps switching position every lap. If one guy is faster, fill him up with fuel give him hard tires. Racing is the most fun and the most racing when you can trust the guy next to you.

Tim.
 
Tim mentions something very important there. The aspect of practising "racing".

Having some 5 lap sprint races you'll have many battles giving you a good idea how racing looks like on that track and where the best overtaking spots are. In addition it's good fun to have a few quick races with some guys. I think that sort of fun could have been an importatn factor in the past to get more people on the server.

I don't want to say that stint practise isn't the same important. But I think a good mix of both aspects would crowd the servers the most.

So to get that mix would it be possible to have stint servers and the good old Q+2x5laps-Race server?
 
So to get that mix would it be possible to have stint servers and the good old Q+2x5laps-Race server?

Our current mix of server is:
Stint server: 15 min qual and 22 min race
Long stint server: 15 min qual and 33 min race
2x5 laps server: 15 min qual and 2x5 lap race
Practice server: 600 minute practice 2
Race server: 57 min practice 1, 5 min super pole, 5 min warmup and 67 min race

Yesterday I had to close the 2x5 min server because of steam/race07 problems and was not able to reopen it (it happens all the time). To open it again I need to restart the server (which I am doing now).
 

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