Would it be possible if people have time to do a real simpletons guide to set ups? I mean real simple lol. I and others no doubt would benifit from this. I hear all the words about different things the cars are doing but that's all they are to me lol just words. Things like oversteer and understeer. Toe, camber, trial braking and numerous others. I've tried to read guides but it's like a foreign language sometimes and I just stick with the default settings all the time. I want to go faster and I need to keep doing the laps but I really don't understand what or how the car does what it does. If anyone else is same as me then please post in here and maybe some kind soul will take us under their wing and help. I'm not an idiot but when it comes to cars, well I am lol I'm a dummy.
Set up for Dummies
- Thread starter jimortality
- Start date
Jempy
Premium
I think I understand your problem with setups .... most setup guides are done the wrong way for not very technically accustomed drivers. ( I'm one of them also ... so I'm losing time with creating setups, trying this or that ... and surely making mistakes I'm not aware of ).
They are mostly done per car parts/systems: antiroll bars, toe, caster, differential etc ....
What we may feel as technically noobs ... is a car reaction: understeer, oversteer, bad braking behaviour, bad curve exit etc ....
A good setup guide for noobs should follow this structure... what to do at setups in case of specific car behaviours.... and maybe add to this the secondary effects of such settings, as changing a setting for a specific behaviour may bring another side effect on the car behaviour .... for example: if you do those settings for understeer .... curve entry, at apex or at exit .... it may have such effects. Knowing that would allow to have a better level limit of how the primary settings have to be done.
Such guides are really hard to be found..... and is a setup guide done for one Sim as good for another Sim ? .... not sure at all.
Surely right for cars IRL ... is it also true for all sims ????
They are mostly done per car parts/systems: antiroll bars, toe, caster, differential etc ....
What we may feel as technically noobs ... is a car reaction: understeer, oversteer, bad braking behaviour, bad curve exit etc ....
A good setup guide for noobs should follow this structure... what to do at setups in case of specific car behaviours.... and maybe add to this the secondary effects of such settings, as changing a setting for a specific behaviour may bring another side effect on the car behaviour .... for example: if you do those settings for understeer .... curve entry, at apex or at exit .... it may have such effects. Knowing that would allow to have a better level limit of how the primary settings have to be done.
Such guides are really hard to be found..... and is a setup guide done for one Sim as good for another Sim ? .... not sure at all.
Surely right for cars IRL ... is it also true for all sims ????
@jimortality As per the PM the other day, I'm more than happy to help out. I shall try and find an old LFS setup guide that used to be around that was very handy.
What to do to "fix" things can vary a lot depending on when each thing happens. For example - "my car oversteers" (tried to spin when you turn). Depending on if this happens as you go to enter a corner, during a corner, or on the exit of a corner. And if its at low speed or high speed can make a big difference to the setting you change. It isn't something that can be learnt overnight. But there are some basic principles which you can then use and experiment with to get what you need.
Oversteer:
If the car is oversteering (trying to spin round) the general rule of thumb is to
1) make the REAR suspension components softer (springs, roll bar, dampers/shock absorbers).
2) raise the rear wing angle (if high speed)
3)increase the camber on the rear wheels (for mid-high speed oversteer).
Understeer:
If the car is Understeering (trying to push straight on when you want it to turn more) then try
1) make the FRONT suspension components softer (springs, roll bar, dampers/shock absorbers).
2) lower the rear wing/raise the front wing angle (if at high speed)
3) Increase camber on front wheels
If you are getting BOTH of these things in a turn, then it can be a mix-and-match to fix the problem, but thats more specific and would need a bit of one-on-one tuition and an hour or two of practice laps with someone who can tune setups. (just ask @rikirk we've been there and done that!).
Also, those basic points don't cover ride heights or tyre pressures or the 'bump range' found in ACC. They make big differences, but are a bit complex to explain until you've got the hang of the above.
Hope some of that helps?
EDIT: http://www.vhpa.co.uk/overview.php thats the site with the program. You can use one of the lfs cars and just play around with setups whilst the diagrams show you what you have made the car "do" with that change.
What to do to "fix" things can vary a lot depending on when each thing happens. For example - "my car oversteers" (tried to spin when you turn). Depending on if this happens as you go to enter a corner, during a corner, or on the exit of a corner. And if its at low speed or high speed can make a big difference to the setting you change. It isn't something that can be learnt overnight. But there are some basic principles which you can then use and experiment with to get what you need.
Oversteer:
If the car is oversteering (trying to spin round) the general rule of thumb is to
1) make the REAR suspension components softer (springs, roll bar, dampers/shock absorbers).
2) raise the rear wing angle (if high speed)
3)increase the camber on the rear wheels (for mid-high speed oversteer).
Understeer:
If the car is Understeering (trying to push straight on when you want it to turn more) then try
1) make the FRONT suspension components softer (springs, roll bar, dampers/shock absorbers).
2) lower the rear wing/raise the front wing angle (if at high speed)
3) Increase camber on front wheels
If you are getting BOTH of these things in a turn, then it can be a mix-and-match to fix the problem, but thats more specific and would need a bit of one-on-one tuition and an hour or two of practice laps with someone who can tune setups. (just ask @rikirk we've been there and done that!).
Also, those basic points don't cover ride heights or tyre pressures or the 'bump range' found in ACC. They make big differences, but are a bit complex to explain until you've got the hang of the above.
Hope some of that helps?
EDIT: http://www.vhpa.co.uk/overview.php thats the site with the program. You can use one of the lfs cars and just play around with setups whilst the diagrams show you what you have made the car "do" with that change.
Last edited:
One of the easist and basic guide, sadly lacking aero settings and focusing too much on tyre temperatures.
But the parts about dampers, springs etc are very easy to understand and nail it for "just drivers".
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-21-steps-guide-from-gtr2.99873/
Then I wrote quite a few posts about it too, trying to make it as simple as possible:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/how-to-setup-cars.156070/
To make it really really simple, here's a summary so you get a basic idea of when to look at what, using classic example of driving issues on track:
The problem is that it's extremely difficult to explain what does what and when. You always have to mix it in a complex way.
However you can mostly go either from the safe and from the aggressive setup and adjust from there. Depending on which feels as a better base to go from.
These presets have nicely mixed setups so you only need to adjust them slightly and not everything as a whole!
I would suggest to not touch springs and dampers since they are the most difficult to get right.
- If you lose the rear at high speed, increase the rear wing.
- Rake will change the balance for high speed and low speed corners!
- ARBs will mostly change low speed corners
So for the beginning I would suggest to go in this order:
- Rear wing
- ARBs
- then mix it further with the rake
- little changes can be done via rear toe
- preload is great to get the trail brake behavior right. Too lose -> raise preload, too understeery -> lower preload
Hope that helps for now.
General setup guides are extremely difficult to create. You basically need practice and a shedload of different perspectives of input until your mind can wrap around it all and then decide for each specific problem what to do and what to adjust.
It's a lot easier to make a specific case. Like doing a video showing the problems + a text about what you don't like and attach the setup (or tell us what you changed from which preset).
This way you learn what you need to do with something to work on.
But the parts about dampers, springs etc are very easy to understand and nail it for "just drivers".
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-21-steps-guide-from-gtr2.99873/
Then I wrote quite a few posts about it too, trying to make it as simple as possible:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/how-to-setup-cars.156070/
To make it really really simple, here's a summary so you get a basic idea of when to look at what, using classic example of driving issues on track:
- Not enough high speed:
- lower general aero (mostly rear wing though)
- lower the car
- lower the rear
- (soft springs will lower the car at high speeds due to the aero pressing it down)
- Not enough grip in fast corners:
- increase general aero
- try increasing negative camber
- try more positive rear toe
- General balance:
- Car is wonky:
- stiffen the car. Springs, ARBs, Dampers. In this order
- Car is stiff and jumps around:
- opposite of the above
- Losing grip at high speed corners (under -or oversteer):
- Aero balance! (Rake and Wings)
- Grip issues at slow corners:
- ARBs balance
- Problems at turn in or when putting down the throttle?
- Damper balance (stiffer turn in = increase front bump, more rear squat when accelerating = softer rear bump). Balance it out by doing the opposite to the rebounds!
- Car is wonky:
- Now there are a few things that are characteristically for specific things:
- The front gains too much grip when you have longer bends. It feels like the front is turning in further on its own:
- Front ARB too soft
- Mid corner towards the exit the rear drifts away or just sticks and the car won't rotate enough:
- Rear toe or rear ARB
- The front gains too much grip when you have longer bends. It feels like the front is turning in further on its own:
The problem is that it's extremely difficult to explain what does what and when. You always have to mix it in a complex way.
However you can mostly go either from the safe and from the aggressive setup and adjust from there. Depending on which feels as a better base to go from.
These presets have nicely mixed setups so you only need to adjust them slightly and not everything as a whole!
I would suggest to not touch springs and dampers since they are the most difficult to get right.
- If you lose the rear at high speed, increase the rear wing.
- Rake will change the balance for high speed and low speed corners!
- ARBs will mostly change low speed corners
So for the beginning I would suggest to go in this order:
- Rear wing
- ARBs
- then mix it further with the rake
- little changes can be done via rear toe
- preload is great to get the trail brake behavior right. Too lose -> raise preload, too understeery -> lower preload
Hope that helps for now.
General setup guides are extremely difficult to create. You basically need practice and a shedload of different perspectives of input until your mind can wrap around it all and then decide for each specific problem what to do and what to adjust.
It's a lot easier to make a specific case. Like doing a video showing the problems + a text about what you don't like and attach the setup (or tell us what you changed from which preset).
This way you learn what you need to do with something to work on.
Thank you as well Rasmus much appreciated.
Kek700
Premium
The simple answer, just drive the car, when you get
to a speed where your inputs are not getting the car
Pointing where you want it. Read the above articles
to find a solution to that problem.
Keep to one car, you have a perfect platform for
learning with AC, find a problem, read , apply, learn.
I’m not sure that most people can just learn by
reading.
If I can do it , anyone can.
to a speed where your inputs are not getting the car
Pointing where you want it. Read the above articles
to find a solution to that problem.
Keep to one car, you have a perfect platform for
learning with AC, find a problem, read , apply, learn.
I’m not sure that most people can just learn by
reading.
If I can do it , anyone can.
Ernie, it's not that simple. If something is happening with the car then before you can read and learn, you need to understand what and why the car is doing what it's doing. I can go round a corner and think I'm getting over/understeer but I don't know what it is. It could be my poor driving (more than likely lol) but I don't know what the car is doing. When I said for dummies I really meant it.The simple answer, just drive the car, when you get
to a speed where your inputs are not getting the car
Pointing where you want it. Read the above articles
to find a solution to that problem.
Keep to one car, you have a perfect platform for
learning with AC, find a problem, read , apply, learn.
I’m not sure that most people can just learn by
reading.
If I can do it , anyone can.
I'm going to set up shadowplay when I'm practising and not think about it recording then just upload it as it is and see what you can see.
What you should do Jim is to do two things in parallel:
Improve your driving so you don't need to bend the car from a good setup down to a bad setup to make it suit your bad driving.
And at the same time improve your setup knowledge so you know how to bend the car down to your bad driving.
It sounds harsh but I learnt that lesson last year.
So in the end you want to drive the same setups as the really good drivers do while getting as close in pace compared to them.
It's worth nothing if you can bend all the cars down to your bad driving and gain time compared to the default setup if you could rather improve your driving and gain a lot more time from driving better with the default setup!
I once made a big step forward regarding setup knowledge and tried to make a superb setup for the mx-5 cup in AC around Magione!
And yeah, I went 1.5s quicker with my custom setup compared to the default!
Then at the same time I got to know some people and learnt how to compare laps in Motec.
I ask one of the fastest guys I know to do a benchmark lap.
One full second quicker than my fastest time. WITH THE DEFAULT SETUP!
I sent him my custom setup and he got slower with it...
Then I compared the telemetry and the case was clear. My custom setup restricted the mx-5 cup car of doing what's fastest with it...
So I learnt how to drive with the default, tried to copy the inputs I could see in Motec and boom, a week later I went quicker with the default setup than I ever went with my custom setup before.
Long story short:
1. You should rather focus on improving your driving skills
2. Sometimes you simply need a custom setup to be competitive
3. There sadly is a big lack of information about "good setups"
What really helps:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/gt3-car-pack-mugello.137709/
Absolutely brilliant driver (top 10 and got invited to SRO Monza) and an engineer! Brilliant setups too!
If you learn how to drive fast with these base setups from Phil, you're on a good path
Improve your driving so you don't need to bend the car from a good setup down to a bad setup to make it suit your bad driving.
And at the same time improve your setup knowledge so you know how to bend the car down to your bad driving.
It sounds harsh but I learnt that lesson last year.
So in the end you want to drive the same setups as the really good drivers do while getting as close in pace compared to them.
It's worth nothing if you can bend all the cars down to your bad driving and gain time compared to the default setup if you could rather improve your driving and gain a lot more time from driving better with the default setup!
I once made a big step forward regarding setup knowledge and tried to make a superb setup for the mx-5 cup in AC around Magione!
And yeah, I went 1.5s quicker with my custom setup compared to the default!
Then at the same time I got to know some people and learnt how to compare laps in Motec.
I ask one of the fastest guys I know to do a benchmark lap.
One full second quicker than my fastest time. WITH THE DEFAULT SETUP!
I sent him my custom setup and he got slower with it...
Then I compared the telemetry and the case was clear. My custom setup restricted the mx-5 cup car of doing what's fastest with it...
So I learnt how to drive with the default, tried to copy the inputs I could see in Motec and boom, a week later I went quicker with the default setup than I ever went with my custom setup before.
Long story short:
1. You should rather focus on improving your driving skills
2. Sometimes you simply need a custom setup to be competitive
3. There sadly is a big lack of information about "good setups"
What really helps:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/gt3-car-pack-mugello.137709/
Absolutely brilliant driver (top 10 and got invited to SRO Monza) and an engineer! Brilliant setups too!
If you learn how to drive fast with these base setups from Phil, you're on a good path
Kek700
Premium
@RasmusP
You have done a lot more than i have in regards to setting up cars in AC, i had some communication with Pawel on this matter and he spoke of the car becoming more, ill use
my own words, edgy, twitchy, but at the moment i have the view that it is more attached
to the driver than a car performance setup.
So:-
what is your take on” this statement “.
Once all the obvious bits have been refined.
Gearing.
tyre pressures ( nothing fancy just correct when crossing start finish line )
brake bias.
fuel.
( thats all i can think of, probably missed something ).
i can then get at best 0.5 seconds out of the Nissan on a normal length circuit with
all the other settings optimized.
And i may not race with that setup, preferring something more controllable.
i have often taken with a pinch of salt, statements about 2 second gains in lap times
from a setup, but as i have said before, if you work in isolation it is very difficult, no impossible sometimes improve.
What i am trying to say is that when i have been fortunate enough to work in a competitive
group, it has made a big difference to my knowledge base and i have improved much
more than working in isolation.
i especially sense this in articles like this one when a starter asks a simple question,
but with a requirement for a massive amount of time and commitment.
It is not always the way forward to tell them that, so in the end they get bombarded with
with information.
i’m lucky that i had 30 years of motor sport behind me, so i had a good starting point,
as many of the “old boys” have had here on this forum.
I am quite satisfied with my performance, not wanting to improve much more now.
But understand the difficulty i had in getting reliable information, mainly due to the
isolating nature of simulator racing.
i am at the level now when i get overtaken by a fast driver, l know know why, i can
observe it in his driving. It would not be impossible for me to work at it, but i see no
gains for me personally in committing to the process. But that is a view point of knowing
whats involved with the luxury of understanding the end gain from that. Someone starting
out cannot have that.
But it has taken a lot of commitment to get here, i knew from the outset, an alien, i am not.
Even after all of the above, due to the isolation, i only know what i know now, there could
be and probably is loads that i do not know.
in reality i am still in my view a raw recruit to this Sim thingy.
Did not start out to be wordy, but ended up that way, as usual. sorry.
could you attempt to answer the first part, if you are still awake.
You have done a lot more than i have in regards to setting up cars in AC, i had some communication with Pawel on this matter and he spoke of the car becoming more, ill use
my own words, edgy, twitchy, but at the moment i have the view that it is more attached
to the driver than a car performance setup.
So:-
what is your take on” this statement “.
Once all the obvious bits have been refined.
Gearing.
tyre pressures ( nothing fancy just correct when crossing start finish line )
brake bias.
fuel.
( thats all i can think of, probably missed something ).
i can then get at best 0.5 seconds out of the Nissan on a normal length circuit with
all the other settings optimized.
And i may not race with that setup, preferring something more controllable.
i have often taken with a pinch of salt, statements about 2 second gains in lap times
from a setup, but as i have said before, if you work in isolation it is very difficult, no impossible sometimes improve.
What i am trying to say is that when i have been fortunate enough to work in a competitive
group, it has made a big difference to my knowledge base and i have improved much
more than working in isolation.
i especially sense this in articles like this one when a starter asks a simple question,
but with a requirement for a massive amount of time and commitment.
It is not always the way forward to tell them that, so in the end they get bombarded with
with information.
i’m lucky that i had 30 years of motor sport behind me, so i had a good starting point,
as many of the “old boys” have had here on this forum.
I am quite satisfied with my performance, not wanting to improve much more now.
But understand the difficulty i had in getting reliable information, mainly due to the
isolating nature of simulator racing.
i am at the level now when i get overtaken by a fast driver, l know know why, i can
observe it in his driving. It would not be impossible for me to work at it, but i see no
gains for me personally in committing to the process. But that is a view point of knowing
whats involved with the luxury of understanding the end gain from that. Someone starting
out cannot have that.
But it has taken a lot of commitment to get here, i knew from the outset, an alien, i am not.
Even after all of the above, due to the isolation, i only know what i know now, there could
be and probably is loads that i do not know.
in reality i am still in my view a raw recruit to this Sim thingy.
Did not start out to be wordy, but ended up that way, as usual. sorry.
could you attempt to answer the first part, if you are still awake.
This is a very complex thing!
To break it down as much as I possibly can, there are two main things to be fast around a track:
1. Shorter distance by taking a tighter line
2. Higher average speed
And now the complexity starts. What is faster? Super late apex with braking later (longer fast), taking a longer distance but having a higher speed on the next straight?
It depends. Is the following straight long enough to make up for the time lost due to the longer distance taken?
It depends on the car and on the track.
My example from above was about the mx-5 cup at Magione. Lots of twisty tight corners.
The most time for me was lost from the second hairpin until the end of the following straight.
I installed "camber extravaganza" and could clearly see that the mx-5 was lacking rear camber. The rear was sliding under full lateral load!
So I set this little car up to be super grippy in comparison. And it worked. I gained a lot of time!
Then Matteo did a lap and humiliated my lap time with the default setup. He was a lot slower with my grippier setup.
Comparing telemetry, you could see that he rotated the car at the apex a lot further than me. The rear slid around a little when he really turned in.
Then he went earlier on the throttle, again, drifting the rear.
The result was that he was so much earlier on the throttle, that his corner exit speed was higher than mine although he lost some acceleration due to the wheel spin.
In the end his line was shorter, the entry and mod corner speed the same but the exit quicker and the straight line speed higher.
And that's all because he drifted the corner with the default setup.
My "better" setup restricted the drifting. The maximum lateral G was better indeed, but the lap time simply wasn't.
Now that leads me to the following. Beware that's a very personal opinion I think:
For most track + car combinations there is one fastest line connected to the one and only perfect inputs to follow that line.
Step one is to find out that line for each specific car. Some call it talent, some call it computer analysis
Step two is to find out and nail the perfect inputs.
I often read about "driving style". And different styles leading to the same lap time but in a different way.
Honestly that's bull crap imo!
I'm pretty sure that when you would put all F1 drivers into the same car and overlay the input telemetry, the differences wouldn't be visible without zooming in like crazy.
I saw this myself when comparing telemetry with a few friends.
We all were the quickest through some corners so we created a theoretical best out of all our laps and tried to get there.
The closer we came and faster we got, the more the telemetry became exactly the same.
And this, and only this, is when the setup really starts to make a difference.
You have the perfect line and the perfect inputs. But it might be that the car just can't do it with the default setup.
It might also be that you simply can't drive the perfect line with perfect inputs with the default setup.
The problem is that you can't know if the line you take is the correct one, if the setup would be able to drive the correct one and what to change.
You either need to somehow become a lot better driver or you simply need an awesome driver to check out the combo for you so you can use his setup and line and try to replicate his inputs.
To go back to your question:
Yes, mostly a riskier setup is quicker. For me that's mostly down to the fact that you can steer less if you over rotate but you can't steer more when already understeering.
It's more difficult to drive though since a wrong input will spin you around.
If a really good driver who's already good at setups gives you his setup and you can't drive it.
You can be pretty sure that you need to become a better drive instead of changing the setup.
But no one wants to hear that he sucks
Being fast is extremely complicated, driving slow is extremely simple.
When wanting to become fast although your starting point is being pretty slow, you first need to get your thinking aligned with the complexity.
Or you can hope that your body and brain somehow wrap around the complexity by just driving more.
Depending on your personal starting point, it's hard work to become quicker or you have a good direction just like that.
For me it's more a matter of the starting point and the way to work than of raw talent.
It's easy to think that hard work and a good starting point would be talent!
The main problems are two things:
1. If you're isolated, how do you find a good way to work? So coaching might help a lot!
2. If your starting point isn't great, do you have the will and time to work harder than others?
I often see both. People want free coaching but there aren't enough good guys to do that in their free time. And at the same time even if they get free coaching, they don't really take it on.
Simracing is a hobby, mostly not a job. At some point it's not worth it to invest so much time and effort into it while at the same time the results are not satisfying either.
You can either get more efficient or less demanding.
For efficiency I linked Phil's base setups. He did it for each car and he is extremely fast and extremely good with setups.
It's a perfect example of a true benchmark.
Take the car of your choice and lap it around mugello with his setup until you're able to be fast and consistent with it.
This is how these cars should behave. If you find it too oversteery you need to learn how to control it.
If you find it too understeery, you're entering the corners too quick, overturn the steering wheel, trailbrake badly etc.
It's a good and efficient way to get better.
Maybe try the default setup every now and then to be able to see the differences.
After the you go back to acc or whatever and you'll be better
But back to the problems I mentioned above:
How many of us are willing to spend weeks at mugello, in AC, with Gt3s?
No idea. But it's the only thing I know where you have a 100% secured benchmark regarding lap time and setup.
Maybe Phil would be so kind to provide telemetry if we'd ask him
Yeah... I'm gonna stop now
But like you said, beginners are often bombarded with info but not necessarily good and correct info!
It's due to racing being so complex. Physics wise, concentration wise, human precision wise etc. It's difficult to find your own path between doing nothing else or become happy with what you can achieve with the effort you can give
As you can probably tell, I'm not super talented regarding my body or being efficient at finding the fastest line + inputs.
But I'm great at thinking about stuff, wrapping my head around it, finding my own way of effort and efficiency, and making notes about it.
I'm probably a better coach than driver
To break it down as much as I possibly can, there are two main things to be fast around a track:
1. Shorter distance by taking a tighter line
2. Higher average speed
And now the complexity starts. What is faster? Super late apex with braking later (longer fast), taking a longer distance but having a higher speed on the next straight?
It depends. Is the following straight long enough to make up for the time lost due to the longer distance taken?
It depends on the car and on the track.
My example from above was about the mx-5 cup at Magione. Lots of twisty tight corners.
The most time for me was lost from the second hairpin until the end of the following straight.
I installed "camber extravaganza" and could clearly see that the mx-5 was lacking rear camber. The rear was sliding under full lateral load!
So I set this little car up to be super grippy in comparison. And it worked. I gained a lot of time!
Then Matteo did a lap and humiliated my lap time with the default setup. He was a lot slower with my grippier setup.
Comparing telemetry, you could see that he rotated the car at the apex a lot further than me. The rear slid around a little when he really turned in.
Then he went earlier on the throttle, again, drifting the rear.
The result was that he was so much earlier on the throttle, that his corner exit speed was higher than mine although he lost some acceleration due to the wheel spin.
In the end his line was shorter, the entry and mod corner speed the same but the exit quicker and the straight line speed higher.
And that's all because he drifted the corner with the default setup.
My "better" setup restricted the drifting. The maximum lateral G was better indeed, but the lap time simply wasn't.
Now that leads me to the following. Beware that's a very personal opinion I think:
For most track + car combinations there is one fastest line connected to the one and only perfect inputs to follow that line.
Step one is to find out that line for each specific car. Some call it talent, some call it computer analysis
Step two is to find out and nail the perfect inputs.
I often read about "driving style". And different styles leading to the same lap time but in a different way.
Honestly that's bull crap imo!
I'm pretty sure that when you would put all F1 drivers into the same car and overlay the input telemetry, the differences wouldn't be visible without zooming in like crazy.
I saw this myself when comparing telemetry with a few friends.
We all were the quickest through some corners so we created a theoretical best out of all our laps and tried to get there.
The closer we came and faster we got, the more the telemetry became exactly the same.
And this, and only this, is when the setup really starts to make a difference.
You have the perfect line and the perfect inputs. But it might be that the car just can't do it with the default setup.
It might also be that you simply can't drive the perfect line with perfect inputs with the default setup.
The problem is that you can't know if the line you take is the correct one, if the setup would be able to drive the correct one and what to change.
You either need to somehow become a lot better driver or you simply need an awesome driver to check out the combo for you so you can use his setup and line and try to replicate his inputs.
To go back to your question:
Yes, mostly a riskier setup is quicker. For me that's mostly down to the fact that you can steer less if you over rotate but you can't steer more when already understeering.
It's more difficult to drive though since a wrong input will spin you around.
If a really good driver who's already good at setups gives you his setup and you can't drive it.
You can be pretty sure that you need to become a better drive instead of changing the setup.
But no one wants to hear that he sucks
Being fast is extremely complicated, driving slow is extremely simple.
When wanting to become fast although your starting point is being pretty slow, you first need to get your thinking aligned with the complexity.
Or you can hope that your body and brain somehow wrap around the complexity by just driving more.
Depending on your personal starting point, it's hard work to become quicker or you have a good direction just like that.
For me it's more a matter of the starting point and the way to work than of raw talent.
It's easy to think that hard work and a good starting point would be talent!
The main problems are two things:
1. If you're isolated, how do you find a good way to work? So coaching might help a lot!
2. If your starting point isn't great, do you have the will and time to work harder than others?
I often see both. People want free coaching but there aren't enough good guys to do that in their free time. And at the same time even if they get free coaching, they don't really take it on.
Simracing is a hobby, mostly not a job. At some point it's not worth it to invest so much time and effort into it while at the same time the results are not satisfying either.
You can either get more efficient or less demanding.
For efficiency I linked Phil's base setups. He did it for each car and he is extremely fast and extremely good with setups.
It's a perfect example of a true benchmark.
Take the car of your choice and lap it around mugello with his setup until you're able to be fast and consistent with it.
This is how these cars should behave. If you find it too oversteery you need to learn how to control it.
If you find it too understeery, you're entering the corners too quick, overturn the steering wheel, trailbrake badly etc.
It's a good and efficient way to get better.
Maybe try the default setup every now and then to be able to see the differences.
After the you go back to acc or whatever and you'll be better
But back to the problems I mentioned above:
How many of us are willing to spend weeks at mugello, in AC, with Gt3s?
No idea. But it's the only thing I know where you have a 100% secured benchmark regarding lap time and setup.
Maybe Phil would be so kind to provide telemetry if we'd ask him
Yeah... I'm gonna stop now
But like you said, beginners are often bombarded with info but not necessarily good and correct info!
It's due to racing being so complex. Physics wise, concentration wise, human precision wise etc. It's difficult to find your own path between doing nothing else or become happy with what you can achieve with the effort you can give
As you can probably tell, I'm not super talented regarding my body or being efficient at finding the fastest line + inputs.
But I'm great at thinking about stuff, wrapping my head around it, finding my own way of effort and efficiency, and making notes about it.
I'm probably a better coach than driver
Kek700
Premium
First of all i am truly grateful for the write up, normally i am nit picking things that are of
interest to me from an article.
There is an huge amount of content with respect to the length of your article.
Every sentence i read creates dozens of questions that i would like to ask. Every chance i get when
a fast driver like Tariq is following me, i am trying to analyze whats going on, it’s my only chance to
compare data, even though it’s only visual. And obviously i do not know what he is doing, chasing
me or using a bit of time off, taking a puff on his fag and drinking a pint of larger.
If i analyze it from a visual aspect it’s not braking, it’s not normally the line in or out.
Sometimes it’s better use of all the road, i am fully aware of that, but prefer to play it safe.
it seems, from a visual perspective to be the transition from the in and out process cumulating
in a higher speed, then it only seems to be some corners, not all.
All this is a reference to GT3 Nissan, i , at this moment in time, not a 100% with your driver style
and setup.
l don’t have the skill set to mimic the process of the transition of what i “think” is the important
end of braking and the application of throttle. but most importantly the transition speed.
( just an add on, i am conscious of steering input, always trying to keep it to a minimum, i
very rarely have large steering inputs, probably a learnt habit ).
There also a more, drifting of the car too, representing an edge of grip, were mine is a more
on rails approach. Funnily it is probably easier to be on the limit of adhesion than trying to find
it. If you are able to do that.
i obviously do this, but at a lower speed and a complete lack of consistency lap after lap.
This is probably completely wrong, so i am hoping someone will put me right.
Question of setup and style, i have tried to use the physics of the Nissan to my advantage by utilizing
its braking into the corner coupled with its stability and the ability to accept immediate throttle.
( not saying other cars are not able to do this, just from my point of view the Nissan is very good
at this )
it works very well on some circuits but very badly on others.
i have to thank John and Craig for that, introducing me to the McLaren 650s, so much quicker
than the Nissan on some circuits.
i’m hoping i am wrong about my theory, so i can dump it and start from afresh, at the moment
i am stuck.
it’s not all bad, quite happy we’re i am at the moment, but improving is all part of the fun.
This is just a small, part answer to your comments. Already read your comments a dozen times.
This could end up a book, the size of war and peace.
PS.
your article probably explains it better than this, it’s just my personal observation and take on it.
interest to me from an article.
There is an huge amount of content with respect to the length of your article.
Every sentence i read creates dozens of questions that i would like to ask. Every chance i get when
a fast driver like Tariq is following me, i am trying to analyze whats going on, it’s my only chance to
compare data, even though it’s only visual. And obviously i do not know what he is doing, chasing
me or using a bit of time off, taking a puff on his fag and drinking a pint of larger.
If i analyze it from a visual aspect it’s not braking, it’s not normally the line in or out.
Sometimes it’s better use of all the road, i am fully aware of that, but prefer to play it safe.
it seems, from a visual perspective to be the transition from the in and out process cumulating
in a higher speed, then it only seems to be some corners, not all.
All this is a reference to GT3 Nissan, i , at this moment in time, not a 100% with your driver style
and setup.
l don’t have the skill set to mimic the process of the transition of what i “think” is the important
end of braking and the application of throttle. but most importantly the transition speed.
( just an add on, i am conscious of steering input, always trying to keep it to a minimum, i
very rarely have large steering inputs, probably a learnt habit ).
There also a more, drifting of the car too, representing an edge of grip, were mine is a more
on rails approach. Funnily it is probably easier to be on the limit of adhesion than trying to find
it. If you are able to do that.
i obviously do this, but at a lower speed and a complete lack of consistency lap after lap.
This is probably completely wrong, so i am hoping someone will put me right.
Question of setup and style, i have tried to use the physics of the Nissan to my advantage by utilizing
its braking into the corner coupled with its stability and the ability to accept immediate throttle.
( not saying other cars are not able to do this, just from my point of view the Nissan is very good
at this )
it works very well on some circuits but very badly on others.
i have to thank John and Craig for that, introducing me to the McLaren 650s, so much quicker
than the Nissan on some circuits.
i’m hoping i am wrong about my theory, so i can dump it and start from afresh, at the moment
i am stuck.
it’s not all bad, quite happy we’re i am at the moment, but improving is all part of the fun.
This is just a small, part answer to your comments. Already read your comments a dozen times.
This could end up a book, the size of war and peace.
PS.
your article probably explains it better than this, it’s just my personal observation and take on it.
Cheers Ernie!
I think I wrote enough about all this. There's not much to gain from another big wall of text from me
Great write-down of thoughts from you!
I'd like to comment one part though:
You just have to try what's the fastest way around which corner and then find out how to mix your setup to result in the quickest compromise for all the corners and straights together.
For Magione with the mx-5 cup it's default setup with lots of drifting at the exit, with the Tatuus F4 around Mugello it might be a setup that's absolutely on rails and needs a very clean driving without any slip at all.
What quick drivers like Tariq do better than us is that they can try, mix and find out this stuff a lot better and also have the raw skills to get a good result in the end.
In the end there are no fixed rules to follow to be fast. One "rule" for example is that you should never "pump the throttle". Wait until you can really put it down and then do it and keep it. If you "pump" it, you were too early.
Then I got Nordschleife telemetry from Matteo and compared it to my telemetry. Guess what, he pumped the throttle every bloody corner! It's simply faster with the Lambo around that track!
One need to find out what the car needs and how to get the best out of it. And only then you can go in and change the mostly very good default setups to squeeze out the last few percent for each specific track.
I mean.. look at the times from the Phil's Mugello pack. Can you do a 1:48.7 with the Nissan? Custom setup or default setup, I can't do that time at all!
And honestly, it's a better approach to learn how to get close to these times and focus on the driving that to focus on bending the car to your bad driving by learning a lot about setups.
The big problem though: You can find setup everywhere and you can play around with setup and see and feel immediate results just on your own, no other person involved.
Whereas to really get better with your driving, you need telemetry, slow motion replays and someone willing to provide these recordings of better driving that yours.
And I don't talk about a tenth here and there. I'm talking about pole times. 2 seconds quicker than you so you'll really see the differences!
Or in simple words: it's a lot easier to focus on setup than it is to focus on driving. And I think a place like RD should be a good platform to finally change this!
You don't need a driving school. Just sim racing titles that put out telemetry data, a post or better a whole subforum about how to load and compare telemetry data and discussions about it.
But I don't see any of this at all at it's a shame! It really is a shame!
Sure, Motec is fecking fiddly but it's so worth it!
Here's anexample:
Two Nordschleife laps from myself. December 2018 vs May 2019.
Lap times are within 0.1s over the whole 8:17.6xx!
I have both replays, you watch them, you don't see any difference at all.
Then you look into Motec:
1.692s difference after 1/3 of the lap done. Meaning in theory I could go almost 1.7s quicker if'd combine my two laps to one theoretical best.
Now let's find a little example of differences in my input:
I lost 0.8s within a few corners at the very beginning of the Nordschleife part. Going into some details you can spot the difference very clearly:
(crosses moving from the right side to the left side, a bit confusing without seeing the whole thing. It's the fast downhill right hander right at the beginning of the Nordschleife)
Boom, cost me half a second just by getting this corner wrong. Now knowing where to look at, I can spot it on the replays. But without super slow motion I wouldn't know what to do...
Now here in Motec I can see:
- approached the corner from further to the left
- lifted throttle earlier and went back on it earlier
- didn't lift as much and shorter
- turned in later but way more (values are showing 64° to 37° steering angle)
I think I wrote enough about all this. There's not much to gain from another big wall of text from me
Great write-down of thoughts from you!
I'd like to comment one part though:
I didn't mean that drifting is good or bad. It's mostly slower to be honest. I meant to explain that each track + car combo is very very specific and the mx-5 cup around Magione was a very specific eye opener for me.
You just have to try what's the fastest way around which corner and then find out how to mix your setup to result in the quickest compromise for all the corners and straights together.
For Magione with the mx-5 cup it's default setup with lots of drifting at the exit, with the Tatuus F4 around Mugello it might be a setup that's absolutely on rails and needs a very clean driving without any slip at all.
What quick drivers like Tariq do better than us is that they can try, mix and find out this stuff a lot better and also have the raw skills to get a good result in the end.
In the end there are no fixed rules to follow to be fast. One "rule" for example is that you should never "pump the throttle". Wait until you can really put it down and then do it and keep it. If you "pump" it, you were too early.
Then I got Nordschleife telemetry from Matteo and compared it to my telemetry. Guess what, he pumped the throttle every bloody corner! It's simply faster with the Lambo around that track!
One need to find out what the car needs and how to get the best out of it. And only then you can go in and change the mostly very good default setups to squeeze out the last few percent for each specific track.
I mean.. look at the times from the Phil's Mugello pack. Can you do a 1:48.7 with the Nissan? Custom setup or default setup, I can't do that time at all!
And honestly, it's a better approach to learn how to get close to these times and focus on the driving that to focus on bending the car to your bad driving by learning a lot about setups.
The big problem though: You can find setup everywhere and you can play around with setup and see and feel immediate results just on your own, no other person involved.
Whereas to really get better with your driving, you need telemetry, slow motion replays and someone willing to provide these recordings of better driving that yours.
And I don't talk about a tenth here and there. I'm talking about pole times. 2 seconds quicker than you so you'll really see the differences!
Or in simple words: it's a lot easier to focus on setup than it is to focus on driving. And I think a place like RD should be a good platform to finally change this!
You don't need a driving school. Just sim racing titles that put out telemetry data, a post or better a whole subforum about how to load and compare telemetry data and discussions about it.
But I don't see any of this at all at it's a shame! It really is a shame!
Sure, Motec is fecking fiddly but it's so worth it!
Here's anexample:
Two Nordschleife laps from myself. December 2018 vs May 2019.
Lap times are within 0.1s over the whole 8:17.6xx!
I have both replays, you watch them, you don't see any difference at all.
Then you look into Motec:
1.692s difference after 1/3 of the lap done. Meaning in theory I could go almost 1.7s quicker if'd combine my two laps to one theoretical best.
Now let's find a little example of differences in my input:
I lost 0.8s within a few corners at the very beginning of the Nordschleife part. Going into some details you can spot the difference very clearly:
(crosses moving from the right side to the left side, a bit confusing without seeing the whole thing. It's the fast downhill right hander right at the beginning of the Nordschleife)
Boom, cost me half a second just by getting this corner wrong. Now knowing where to look at, I can spot it on the replays. But without super slow motion I wouldn't know what to do...
Now here in Motec I can see:
- approached the corner from further to the left
- lifted throttle earlier and went back on it earlier
- didn't lift as much and shorter
- turned in later but way more (values are showing 64° to 37° steering angle)
It's all the same in the endI know i should be talking more about ACC, but finding ACC much more challenging than AC.
it’s easier to talk about something you half understand, rather than something which is at the
moment a mystery to me.
We suck at both
You have telemetry in both
Kek700
Premium
just one point before i go, by the way i absolutely agree with your comments.
i did not choose my words correctly, drifting is a poor description of what i meant, it’s
that speed were you are on the very edge of adhesion, a bit more and you slid off,
a bit less and you are on rails. That is the 2 or 3km/hr that make the difference between
ordinary and fast.
could be wrong on that, at the moment that’s the bit i am trying to find. no hope
i did not choose my words correctly, drifting is a poor description of what i meant, it’s
that speed were you are on the very edge of adhesion, a bit more and you slid off,
a bit less and you are on rails. That is the 2 or 3km/hr that make the difference between
ordinary and fast.
could be wrong on that, at the moment that’s the bit i am trying to find. no hope
