Sim racers are an easy target

[Rob Every]

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up.

I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85.

I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ.

It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to other games or Iracing, but in general terms let's compare it to other games.

I am currently playing God of War, that has no DLC, and retail sets you back about 40 quid. Full game, no addons, Some games I imagine cost far more or are similar price wise.

Sim comparison F1 2020 say, all content 64 quid. Automobilista season pass is 80 quid. I cant work out DR 2.0 but I think if you bought everything from release full price it was over 100. The basics games gives you a few cars and tracks for 40 odd quid, now that is a total rip off if you ask me and its because the game was about a third of a game on release.

Why is it that sim racers are so easy to exploit? I know we are not alone here, most games do it now, but with Dirt Rally 2.0 really showed what exploiting a tiny population can rake in if you di it. Literally selling old content as new. You are so easy to manipulate, new physics, tyres, Oh yes we'll pay 40 quid for 8 tracks and about 10 cars! Bless.

Fair enough this game is new, it feels new, and the content is good and you can get it on sale as you can now for cheaper.

But the fact remains sim developers really do exploit sim gamers, and why? Because on the whole most of you are desperate or dumb enough to just forget what games ought to cost. And pay whatever they want you to pay. Just like SKY, Amazon, Disney, Netflix etc.

Now that's a harsh comment I know, but take a look here, if you always do it, guess what happens, that cost keeps on rising, more DLC keeps coming and they market it as unmissable and you MUST have it, but really is it such a good idea? Eventually a game with all content will be 200 quid plus and you are making companies vast profits who in the past would have to work harder for their money, you make it easier and easier for them to exploit you.

Kunos announced recently they had made 100 million recently, couldn't they just release a bit more with the game from new instead of basically releasing half a game? Wouldn't that be refreshing?

 

[GeekyDeaks]

I usually rate a game's value for money on its cost per hour, with my target for good value at under £1/hour. Every sim I own is under that threshold by some margin (some more than others, AC is about £0.05/hour), however quite a few of my non-sim titles that have cost me less up front are woefully short of it.

 

[AndrewBo]

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up.

I am ready.

 

[BrightCandle]

I agree, the sims are kind of expensive. AC is actually pretty good value for money comparatively because it has a lot more content, allows mods and has been cheaper than ACC at basically every point. Its DLC model sucked however, the need to own everything on the track is a bit obnoxious but it has been quite a bit cheaper than ACC. iRacing is extremely obnoxiously priced, monthly subs + paying for content and that content being ludicrously expensive is a horrible model and its not one I will ever support. ACC is better in that it charges for content and that content is a lot cheaper but it is still for the entire game kind of expensive overall.

Il2 has similar problems, the base games are reasonably priced but if you want all the planes and environments oh boy does it get expensive.

But one thing the sims do have is high quality DLC, this isn't just hats that is being added but laser scanned tracks and detailed cars with good simulation quality so compared to your average AAA game it is more meaningful content. But it definitely adds up as the DLCs pile up that the cost of the total game is pretty high. A lot of that cost over the years was fixing the appalling launch state of the game which was release far too early. The VR is still barely usable performance wise and I see no interest from Kunos in addressing it.

It is a mixed bag, I think the sims justify it a bit better than most AAA games but DLC is clearly still pretty profitable and ACC has a very low value for money proposition compared to AC especially, it clearly favors simulation fidelity over volume with a big costs associated with it. But its very favorable cost wise compared to iRacing for the same type of racing, its also poor value compared to AC.

 

[Rob Every]

My point mainly being since when did the general public be so gullible that 85 quid for a still less than complete game be fine!

Answer, being, since they told you that was you had to pay and you all did it lol!

 

[Kenny Paton]

But the fact remains sim developers really do exploit sim gamers, and why? Because on the whole most of you are desperate or dumb enough to just forget what games ought to cost

I think you're being unfair to both sides of that equation.
Racing games don't exist in a vacuum, like other video games publishers and developers tend to copy each others successful sales strategies. It's also true that games development, especially in the sim racing world has became a much more complicated and expensive enterprise with increasing expectations and demands from the prospective buyers.
I'm pretty sure when Kunos published Netkar in 2006 they never expected to see the company eventually make 100 million in Sales.
In the same year I bought GTR2 on the day of release, probably the gold standard of racing games at that point, no dlc and only one patch, but things have changed so much it's unreasonable to expect the same today and much as I'd prefer to see games released in a better state there's obviously a window set by publishers and licensing requirements that has to be met.
Like geekydeaks I judge by the amount of time and enjoyment I get from something and that sets the value I place on it.
In perspective, if my son has a day's golfing he will be out between £80 & 100.
Finally, considering the demands and often abuse sim racing devs have to put up with as they try to fix and improve things and I really don't grudge them a profit when they're successful.

 

[Rob Every]

OK I see a few points.

Firstly real life sport and racing is no comparison to sims, you cant really simulate golf and I think we would all rather be playing sport over sitting in a room pretending, so lets knock that one out the door. I will give you one thing, motorsport is pathetically over pricey so for some its the only way they can even try.

I would argue that expectations are solely about profit, not a lot more. They now KNOW they can get away with selling a game for 100 quid over several months, they know they could NEVER get away with that on release.

The model has moved away from selling complete games, onto fleecing the gamer as much as possible. I dont blame them, gamers have proved to be wholly willing to now spend double sometimes more on games, all that I would be sad for is that they did not realise they could do it 20 years ago

 

[d69morpwr]

OK I see a few points.

Firstly real life sport and racing is no comparison to sims, you cant really simulate golf and I think we would all rather be playing sport over sitting in a room pretending, so lets knock that one out the door. I will give you one thing, motorsport is pathetically over pricey so for some its the only way they can even try.

I would argue that expectations are solely about profit, not a lot more. They now KNOW they can get away with selling a game for 100 quid over several months, they know they could NEVER get away with that on release.

The model has moved away from selling complete games, onto fleecing the gamer as much as possible. I dont blame them, gamers have proved to be wholly willing to now spend double sometimes more on games, all that I would be sad for is that they did not realise they could do it 20 years ago

Actually not true. I know somebody who has a job working on a golf simulator. I had no idea either.lol

 

[Kenny Paton]

The model has moved away from selling complete games, onto fleecing the gamer as much as possible. I dont blame them, gamers have proved to be wholly willing to now spend double sometimes more on games, all that I would be sad for is that

Since the complexity of most sim titles is so great I think that you're correct in that they couldn't sell it at a profitable price without that skyrocketing. Insofar as gamers go yes we share some of the blame, we now tolerate loot boxes and other dubious practices in many games which so far hasn't invaded our little piece of the video games landscape.
While watching the shrinking of the number of devs in sim racing being swallowed by big publishers is a worrying trend it's maybe the way our extremely niche hobby will continue to grow or indeed survive.
Train and flight sims are much more expensive than ours and that might be a more realistic pricing structure.
I don't necessarily disagree with the direction of your opening post just feel it's a bit hard on devs.

 

[Alex Townsend]

Buying DLC over a couple of years to support a dev studio on your favourite sim whilst breathing new life into it with extra content, whilst that same company continues work on the title to make it better isn't dumb and I wouldn't consider it to be desperate either. I know how much it costs over its lifetime and its minimal compared to the cost of my PC, Alu Prof rig and Triple Monitors.
I happily pay the prices because, as has been eluded to above, the cost per hour of enjoyment in most cases in close to nothing.
You assume people are dumb and desperate, exactly what are you basing this wild assumption on?

 

[JayMc73]

The way I see it is that other companies release a replacement game every 12 months or 24 months that you have to pay full price for. Some are complete games, but some have flaws that never get fixed because they have moved on.

With ACC I know there are flaws, but they are slowly fixing what they can. Also I have three seasons of the SRO European GT championship. One season of the British GT championship. An IGTC add on and a GT4 add on. I think other companies would call that four full separate games and two DLC’s.

That could be £200+ of purchases from an other company.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

I would argue that expectations are solely about profit, not a lot more. They now KNOW they can get away with selling a game for 100 quid over several months, they know they could NEVER get away with that on release.

This is becoming more prevalent across the whole video game industry though, not just sim racing. Your example above with GoW seems to be one of a dying breed. It's also a solely single player game. Personally, I'm a complete cheapskate and almost always buy my games a few months after when they are on sale which saves me a fortune. I sometimes feel like it's more a tax on those who want the latest and greatest right now.

 

[Rob Every]

I too never pay full price for a game. I always buy on sale. As I know too many people left disappointed with pre release deals etc.

I am perplexed by the supporting your studio mantra though. These people are only interested in making decent product and more so making buckets of money. They don't 'need' your support, (lets dee how good they are are when you need support lol) they just want it and will do anything to get it, including releasing very low content base games, addicting you to the product so you then buy every DLC released and make them double the money for that title.

Dumb, OK strong word, but hear me out. If once in a while people stood up for themselves and more importantly other gamers with less, as gamers did with loot boxes, you can instantly change the landscape. Dumb comes from, "I have to have it", "I am OK spending 100 quid on a game, putting up with poor release content for 40." Then spending another 50 on DLC that should have been in the base game already.

The more you do this, the more it happens, not standing up to that is selfish and let's face it a bit dumb as you are making it easier for the likes of Kunos to charge whatever they want long term.

Just like paying for PS Plus or Xbox live, it's a bloody tax yet you all bloody pay it like lemmings!

A lot of DLC is stuff like livery for Gods sake, not worth any money whatsoever, leave it to modders, but no, hell we can make money out of that too!

The modern generation are weened on "my stuff my way, it's all about you" So look at Alex above, it's all about him, not the thousands who maybe can't afford all that gear. Fair enough, if you want to live your life that way fine, and we all do in a way. But look at the bigger picture, they make millions, and you just happily hand over money to them for doing stuff that should be in the base game. Sorry, but that to me is a bit dumb and monumentally selfish, but as we say, your game your way, it's all about you. I dont mean to pick on you chap, your point just makes itself in my argument.

 

[Kenny Paton]

The modern generation are weened on "my stuff my way, it's all about you" So look at Alex above, it's all about him, not the thousands who maybe can't afford all that gear.

People spend what they can on hobbies and sim racing and playing videogames is a hobby.
While it's a nice sentiment it's not what happens in the real world, so people buy what they can afford which depends on their circumstances at that time.
In the seventies through to the noughties I spend thousands on my hi fi and music, when I built my first pc in the mid nineties every component cost a fortune they were my hobbies. Yes I agree that people aren't as rational as they should be when it comes to their hobbies and pastimes but that's pretty much always been true.
Coming back to sim racing, I don't think dev are particularly egregious in their practices but with the current takeovers that could change. I'd add that Kunos prices always seem pretty reasonable to me and it's the volume of sales that have generated the profits probably Gran Turismo and Forza have raked in a lot more.
Sadly I can't claim to be part of the modern generation.

 

[Rob Every]

Oh let me be clear about the money side, I am not saying that the game and DLC are NOT worth what people pay for them. I think if you play the game a lot, that is fine it is worth it.

My issue is more with the practices linked with how it all released.

 

[Kenny Paton]

I think if you play the game a lot, that is fine it is worth it.

We at least we can agree on that.

 

[Rob Every]

Haha, I mean monetarily, not anything else though, let's be clear on that!!

 

[Serge.M]

Not sure how you can compare these very different type of games, god of war gets released, you play it, finish it in maybe 40 hours and move on. The studio doesn’t need to develop anything for it again, they patch it for a few months after release and move on. Sims last many years and people playing them have come to expect ever improving physics and new content. They don’t just get released and forgotten, there is no such thing as a complete game in the sim world, the only way that would be possible is if it had every car ever made with every tack that ever existed with all racing formulas and perfect physics, umm... don’t see that happening any time soon. And even if that magically came to be a new year would come and new cars would appear that people would want in that sim

My longest play time in a normal story game like god of war is probably Persona 5 at a bit over 100 hours, I’m currently going through Ghosts of Tsushima that may get close, both those were about $80 AUD. I have 1439 hours in AC and 753 hours in ACC and both those still counting and will continue to do so long after the story games have been forgotten, now that’s some serious value...

 

[Alex Townsend]

I too never pay full price for a game. I always buy on sale. As I know too many people left disappointed with pre release deals etc.

Same here, never pay full price for a 'game' either, but my sims have much longer lifespans than most 'games' so I'm cool with paying more. My choice afterall.

I am perplexed by the supporting your studio mantra though. These people are only interested in making decent product and more so making buckets of money. They don't 'need' your support, (lets dee how good they are are when you need support lol) they just want it and will do anything to get it, including releasing very low content base games, addicting you to the product so you then buy every DLC released and make them double the money for that title.

Maybe I should have reworded this so you can understand. Support, financial or otherwise. I buy from them as they give me a good product, (2 way street right?), and lasting support and tons of updates and even free content every now and then. Its not the same animal as a regular game you buy on a console and expect everything right there and then.

Dumb, OK strong word, but hear me out. If once in a while people stood up for themselves and more importantly other gamers with less, as gamers did with loot boxes, you can instantly change the landscape. Dumb comes from, "I have to have it", "I am OK spending 100 quid on a game, putting up with poor release content for 40." Then spending another 50 on DLC that should have been in the base game already.

Stood up for themselves? What are you on about? I, possibly like others, are adults spending their money that they earned for their hobby. This statement is ridiculous at best.

The more you do this, the more it happens, not standing up to that is selfish and let's face it a bit dumb as you are making it easier for the likes of Kunos to charge whatever they want long term.

So finding value in something and spending my own money on this is selfish? Odd. Like the hundreds of others that practice this shameful existence I truly hang my head in shame...

Just like paying for PS Plus or Xbox live, it's a bloody tax yet you all bloody pay it like lemmings!

Wow, quite the sweeping generalisation. I don't pay for either of this toot so irrelevant.

A lot of DLC is stuff like livery for Gods sake, not worth any money whatsoever, leave it to modders, but no, hell we can make money out of that too!

It's not though is it... Its tracks and cars etc. That is not just liveries, again an irrelevant pov.

The modern generation are weened on "my stuff my way, it's all about you" So look at Alex above, it's all about him, not the thousands who maybe can't afford all that gear. Fair enough, if you want to live your life that way fine, and we all do in a way. But look at the bigger picture, they make millions, and you just happily hand over money to them for doing stuff that should be in the base game. Sorry, but that to me is a bit dumb and monumentally selfish, but as we say, your game your way, it's all about you. I dont mean to pick on you chap, your point just makes itself in my argument.

Man, I have to talk about this sort of subject from my own perspective, I can't talk for anyone as we're not the same and have different considerations to the value of the things we buy. That is our choice afterall.
We are not required nor expected to consider how we spend our own money, no matter how righteous you believe it to be.
I will provide you with a similarly dumb comment, I feel like I'm explaining basic economics to a child that doesn't even earn their own money, live in their own house that they pay for and provide food for their own family. I decide what I buy and whether it is in line with my income, outgoings and lifestyle choices.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

Just like paying for PS Plus or Xbox live, it's a bloody tax yet you all bloody pay it like lemmings!

My PS+ sub costs less than my phone line rental which I am forced into to get broadband in the back of beyond I live. I don't even use the phone, but I use PS+ to chat and play games with my mates every week. It's a bargain from my perspective, I get far more hours use out of it than my netflix sub and if I had to drop a sub to save money it would be one of the last things to go. I actually remember the days when you didn't pay and me and my mates ended up getting xbox and paying because we got totally fed up of getting dropped out of games on PS. If you want it from another perspective - as a tax, it accounts for less than 0.2% of my monthly tax bill

EDIT: I realise now this is totally off topic. Just to be clear, I agree that sim games are expensive, especially with how they get put on sale within about 2 months, but I feel like you are not taking into account the amount of use you get out of the things you are paying for and just looking at the list price tag