Simhub Shakeit - Large Buttkicker LFE & Concert - Effects Experimentation

[Mr Latte]

​

While not many users will own the largest Buttkicker units due to their cost and high wattage amps required to power them. I know we have some on the forums that own at least one and a few will have purchased amps I have recommended for these going back almost 8 years.

What I want to do in this thread is share some of my own testing/experimentation with these units. How for me I was able to get the most out of them after a long and extensive period of testing. I am making files available for people if they are interested they can try these effects if owning the required hardware.

My own custom build is going to use multiple sets of large BK units (as well as others) and apply the usage of them for specific duties or roles for certain effects. So this is an unofficial Simhub/Shakeit thread that is focused around my own efforts and tactile immersion interests with various effects I have created.

Simhub Shakeit:
WOW as software, this has brought a lot more potential and control to what we can now do with tactile. In the last year updates and improved features, it offers have opened a door to new possibilities compared to any other tactile based software. Its developer deserves a lot of credit and those involved to making it what it has become.

We have right now, is the potential to take tactile immersion far further than most builds currently use and indeed what we see even with expensive professional rigs shown at events like Sim Expo. Many rigs specialise with "motion" for enhanced immersion but really little has been done in a creative way to do this with tactile.

What I want to do here is help others discover how we can bring superb emotion and immersion with powerful tactile for static rigs but also complement motion rigs.

Whats the point?
These large units have the ability to output very low frequencies and this is a big benefit over common transducers. My intention is to bring much more energy, character and immersion for several high energy effects, such as:

• Engine Aspects
• Large Bumps & Impacts
• Braking
• Acceleration
• Lateral G

 

[Mr Latte]

Desired Hardware for these tests are:

Any of the following amps:


Behringer iNuke DSP amps (NU1000 / NU3000 / NU6000)
Behringer NXD DSP amps (NX1000D / NX3000D / NX6000D)


These Buttkicker Transducers/Shakers:

Buttkicker LFE 4ohm (Large)
Buttkicker Concert 2ohm (Large)


I myself have purchased some great bargains from eBay, there is no way I would have what I do have if I had to pay retail prices for all the hardware I have bought over the last 10 years.


Different Amplifiers?
If you have non DSP versions of these amps or other amps you will not be able to get the same felt sensations. While some people perhaps did not buy DSP versions of these amps, the may have underestimated the benefits they can bring and this is, more important with the large BK models.

Why iNuke DSP / NXD Amps?
They offer specialist features for improved performance and control, I have used both a "Crossover" and "Parametric EQ" to help better tune the output of the Buttkickers. Without this, we cannot achieve the same feeling from the low bass as the output will also contain unwanted harmonics. It may be possible to do this with other PC software or hardware but I am not getting involved with configuring that here, however people are welcome to use those methods.

For some of the effects being used they will require the deepest/lowest bass frequencies possible. It is absolutely vital we maintain tight control to get the best bass response for delivering the sensation and energy desired with these effects I am creating/sharing.

Below are examples of different crossovers for controlling how the bass rolls off in dB for different frequencies. You can see clear differences in dB for various Hz (Orange) when compared to a setting that maintains only low bass well (Blue). Using a standard amp with no crossover functioning will have no bass roll-off controls at all. This will create issues of med/high bass affecting potential low bass performance.




Smaller and more budget tactile transducers, as well as many amps, cannot fully deliver the bass energy with the lowest frequencies. That is what most people use. However, the goal here is all about seeking the best performance and bringing a much more professional level of tactile immersion.


Amp Profiles
Settings will be shared to use for the amps configuration.
Users can do tests with one unit or more. This can be configured in their settings within Shakeit to deploy what effects you want to the channels you need.

Users will be able to switch between different presets for the amplifiers I have made and these will offer variation in the crossover that is implemented for different user preferences. A great deal of work and tuning goes into each effect but for some channels in how you place effects, you may want higher frequency detailing and use a different crossover preset.

 

[Mr Latte]

Custom Effects

The first effect I want to share is one that is not available on most tactile based software solutions.
It is not even a standard effect within Shakeit. However thanks some time ago to RomainRob at the Simhub Discord channel he came up with this (Lateral G) custom effect I requested. This is one of the first benefits with Shakeit, that it lets users create their own custom effects as well as having its own to choose from.

My own skills lean more towards the effect's operation and frequencies, how it responds and feels.
I found "Lateral G" is a tricky effect but I think I have discovered a good basis to work from. This produces a nice weight but also deep bass wobble sensation. Feel will vary with 3 different layers having their own sensitivity/response curve settings for different G load values. This helps make it feel better than other software like SSW as we have more control over how the telemetry values are used with the settings the effect has.

Focus On High Performance
If we narrow down and in this case make effects for specific units. Then potential differences/variations in what people will feel are lessened. We reduce the range of factors involved in what one end-user feels to another. This way for others to test these effects and give feedback, I will detail how I conducted the test myself for them to be able to replicate the test for themselves and discuss.

You do not need to be advanced with this to benefit from the work done here. Even a novice will be able to configure the amps and get to enjoy these effects quickly and easily. Images and some guides will be done if people have queries or problems regards other factors like soundcards etc.

 

[Mr Latte]

Title Used For Testing = Assetto Corsa Competizione


Effect No.1
Effect Tested = Lateral G Force
Development & Time Testing = @30Hrs
Layers = 3
Track Used = Spa
Car Used = Ferrari 488GT3

Lateral G Settings Overview (3x Layers):



Preferred Crossover Settings
iNuke Profile = BK Crossover 25Hz 12dB Filter


iNuke Profile = BK Crossover


Typical "Lateral G" Activity Scenarios:

• Highlight sensation at Eau Rauge
• Certain track elements, dips & bumps will generate activity
• Stereo directional response from walls and other cars
• The feel of directional weight/pressure when cornering at slow - high speed
• A sensation of car body rocking on chassis/suspension

Info:
While Lateral G is a stereo based effect that can be enjoyed for directional immersion, it is still possible to enjoy this effect in mono with a single unit.

Several attempts were tried with different frequencies. Also looking into past efforts done for this effect. More recent research by combining a restricted crossover improved the low bass output and response. This made it possible to increase the gain and deliver a more satisfying sensation with high levels of energy possible.

Specific Notes:
Needs careful combination of gain within the response curve and effects layer volume control based on the Hz each layer uses. Potential to improve further with additional tweaks via amps Parametric EQ settings.


Alternative B Version

Effect No.1
Effect Tested = Lateral G Force
Development & Time Testing = @4Hrs
Layers = 2
Track Used = Spa
Car Used = Ferrari 488GT3

Lateral G Settings Overview (2x Layers):


Notes:
This alternative feels more simplified and with a harmonic layer is smoother but still firm.




Effect No.2


Effect No.3
Effect No.4

 

[Mr Latte]

Effect No.5
Effect No.6
Effect No.7
Effect No.8

 

[groove200]

I’ve got a NX3000D and a Buttkicker advance (bk4-4) supposedly capable of 5-200 inbound (!same range as the LFE I believe ) .

reckon it will work on these sub base effects you are working on ??

 

[Mr Latte]

I still think it will lack a bit with @ under 10Hz but it would be interesting to try and get your feedback by using the crossover to ensure we focus on the lowest bass potential. It should still give a nice sensation but maybe just not the same as created/intended to what I feel here.

I have to update the thread, as so far I feel I have good effects for
Engine / Speed / Bumps / Lateral G which still need some tweaking but the sensation from them is really excellent, satisfying and thrilling.

We do need more than one unit however to combine some of these effects as it causes issues when we try to place them all on a single unit.

Will get some files prepared for you to try in the coming day or so.

 

[groove200]

Don’t rush ..... havnt even got my rig in place yet . Sim Lab are snowed under atm .

 

[SOLO59]

I recently upgraded Simhub from version 8.xxx to the newest version this past Monday to version 9.xxxx (Sorry, I'm at work now and don't remember the exact versions).

With this update, I've finally COMPLETELY stopped using Simvibe after nearly 4 years of use.

My only nitpick::
I would like to feel more of the smaller bumps (using road vibration effects). I currently have it set to 100% sensitivity. But I'm still missing some of the smaller detailed bumps in the road. Its good enough though. But with SV, Road Suspension bumps on any car/track (AC, PC2. Much more detailed in RF2 and AMS), any bumps I visually see on screen (car bouncing over bumps), even the smallest of bumps, I would feel all of those in great detail. Especially when just pulling out of the pit box, I can already feel the bumps. But in SH road vibrations (suspension road bumps) its really good don't get me wrong, but I see the car on screen bouncing over all these bumps, but I'm just not feeling them at all. Guess maybe the other sliders (other than sensitivity) might bring out those smaller detailed bumps? Like I had with SV, I basically want to feel every single little/big bumps that I can see the car bouncing over them on screen.
Regardless, SH improved road vibration and new engine effects was enough for me to discontinue SV! This app is amazing and damn easy and quick to setup! Another donation on the way to SH.

Mr Latte's testing is very inspiring and appreciated, wish I had the time and equipment like his!

 

[Mr Latte]

Well, it seems trying to convince others is not so easy....

I want to keep focus in this thread on "low bass" with the developments I have been finding.
I do not know of others experimenting in this way or in this approach but what I will say is that owners of these large units, they really should take an interest to get more from what they can achieve. I do not expect much following or interest in this thread but there will be some who are buying into the hardware and idea of the concept I am sharing that will get involved in helping with testing.

Simhub has been a major benefit with its developer adding new controls/features over this past year. Other members like "RomainRob" have also been excellent in making ideas I had for its "custom effects" abilities happen. In several cases, these have worked well to just the standard effects Simhub comes with. We really have so many possibilities now and if going into multichannel installations it has opened a whole new door.

It does take some time testing and researching some of its more advanced settings to know what they do or how we can use them in certain scenarios or desired sensations. Also to find ways to improve the reactions or sensations for some effects. Or applying an effect to different channels, yet each channel may operate slightly different, so that multiple units generate their own sensation for a combined dispersion. This is one example of going beyond the "traditional concept" that a single unit/channel just generates all the effects you use for that channel. That was a limitation with Simvibe and its EM mode was further limited to only monaural based effects.

Wheel Bumps.
If you want forward me your "profile" to I see what you are doing for bumps?

High Level Of Experimentation
I have worked on well over 100 created profiles in the search of effects experimentation.
Changes to Simhub have rendered new features and some older effects no longer working. So as new features came or changes to how an effect operated, it was a case of putting in the time and effort to come up with new effects again.

Different Units / Different Outputs
For, per-wheel bumps I have been experimenting with a 3way layer configuration using different settings for each layer. These respond with different increments of sensitivity/threshold so that each brings their own felt sensation and purpose. This enables a user to apply small, medium, large bumps detailing individually and then increase/decrease the activity or output levels of each how they please. I feel this as an approach to take with effects is a good step forward as a user can then adapt a layer to generate an output that works well on their own hardware/installation.

Effect Layers Control & Limitations
Now something to point out is that when we start going into multiple layers it becomes more hassle to manage. Also if having too many layers we start to drown out certain elements of each layers role as the dB of the repeated Hz in each layer boost the levels. I have attempted to limit for most effects the number of layers to only 3. Each is an element in most cases for controlling (low/med/high) bass response and in doing this we then can appeal to different hardware. Somone with a typical £/$50 or less type transducer is not going to get the real energy and sensation from a 5Hz tone, but they will feel its harmonics creeping in at 10Hz,15Hz,20Hz,25Hz,30Hz,35Hz,40Hz, and so forth. So this will feel totally different to this user as to an owner of a large BK that will get the energy from the fundamental frequency (first frequency used) for the effect in this case 5Hz. BK owners of the Advance or Mini lfe models will be in the same scenario, with each larger model, it will have better abilities in producing the lowest bass and harmonics. While the effect may feel okay on all, the sensation produced will vary quite a bit.

Altering Sensations
With this approach, we can create different settings to help give different types of car a feel that is softer or more aggressive. The telemetry values based on the physics from one car to another will not feel the exact same (they also alter the output) with the same settings but having more options to alter how different cars may feel I think is a good thing. Again if a user has the larger BK units then they will have more control and variation in how the felt sensation with the low bass is experienced. A user with a common unit will not have much success or benefit here.

Continued Testing
I quite enjoy the exploration and this thread is part of that by discovering how with different effects we use the largest and best bass transducers to bring greater feeling/sensations for effects that add much more sense of power/firmness and stature. More convincing and involving and this is only possible with units than can deliver lots of energy with under 5Hz as well as very nice feel with under 20Hz.


Lateral G - Can Tactile Bring Satisfying Stereo Sensation For G-Loads?
Just last night I spent about another 5 hours on adapting a 3rd option for "Lateral G" sensations.
Making progress with this one as I want something that adds a sense of weight/depth but is also smooth.
You really feel a sense of weight to the appropriate side, so it is an effect that enhances stereo and would, therefore, work very well with motion systems as well.

It has been hard to get this effect bringing the feel I sought and avoid a (knocking sensation) and then also keeping it within the gain levels settings to avoid piston pang.

Using the same 3 tier approach for individual elements of character for the operation of the effect seems to be working very well. As with this we feel it altering if the G-loads are shifting from small to larger values (based on speed/cornering). Having the 3x elements for low/mid/high bass again also let us tailor the output more to cater for different cars, preferences or user hardware.

Months Of Trial/Error Research = New Findings
With this recent experimentation, I believe this effect could help enhance wheel slip for a rear traction loss type sensation as this brings nice weight transition L/R. Its going to interesting with some of these "low bass" effect layers for the various effects, how we then combine them with the mid-higher bass detailing and if desired use harmonically matched frequencies with the exciters. Sometimes it is interesting how the interaction of one effect can be combined with another. So "wheel slip" and "lateral G" look like a good combination to look further into.

I am 100% that, we combine the benefits of the large BK units with multichannel detailing and dispersion in the back of the seat with exciters. Forging together the very lowest bass to the limits of bass detailing, giving us something nobody with Simvibe was doing in creating effects in such a way. To properly feel effects utilising from 1Hz-200Hz on hardware that can properly and fully accomplish it beyond previous limitations and via multi-body-zone installation.

Welcome To The Possibilities Of "Tactile Immersion" In 2020!
Simvibe owners, with the common CM/EM based installations, are not even close to the potential or immersion this brings. Some may roll their eyes, with such a comment but I know how good and the potential with this is.

 

[Jens Roos]

Great write up! Most say it's very convenient to find this thread as I'm looking at "upgrading" my rig, until now mostly had the idea that BK was more to add some "buzz" in the rig. Had thoughts using motion, but not sure I really wan't the extra "fuzz" that it could lead to, read that some people also tend to not be using it after a while. I'm already using Simhub for my USBD480 display, so the possibility to use the same software is an plus as well.

I'm on an 8020 rig with an race car seat, and have good possibility to create or mount brackets needed, but still after your very detailed write up, it's not clear to me what an good or "optimal" hardware setup could look like to be able to estimate what is needed in total? I'm currently on an white paper here

Would both of these BK have equal result/performance?
How many BK is needed, and where should they be placed?
Would any of the Amps be Ok, quite big difference between an 1000 and 6000 model?
How many Amps are needed, one for each BK?
How to communicate with the Amps, separate sound-card for each?

During test you are using an specific car/track combo. Will tuning of BK (in general) require an specific sim/car/track setup or would it be possibly to find an generic configuration (or maybe for each sim) that works fine (maybe not optimal) for most combinations?

Sorry for all the basic questions, all new to this

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Great write up! Most say it's very convenient to find this thread as I'm looking at "upgrading" my rig, until now mostly had the idea that BK was more to add some "buzz" in the rig. Had thoughts using motion, but not sure I really wan't the extra "fuzz" that it could lead to, read that some people also tend to not be using it after a while. I'm already using Simhub for my USBD480 display, so the possibility to use the same software is an plus as well.

I'm on an 8020 rig with an race car seat, and have good possibility to create or mount brackets needed, but still after your very detailed write up, it's not clear to me what an good or "optimal" hardware setup could look like to be able to estimate what is needed in total? I'm currently on an white paper here

Would both of these BK have equal result/performance?
How many BK is needed, and where should they be placed?
Would any of the Amps be Ok, quite big difference between an 1000 and 6000 model?
How many Amps are needed, one for each BK?
How to communicate with the Amps, separate sound-card for each?

During test you are using an specific car/track combo. Will tuning of BK (in general) require an specific sim/car/track setup or would it be possibly to find an generic configuration (or maybe for each sim) that works fine (maybe not optimal) for most combinations?

Sorry for all the basic questions, all new to this

I would chime in, but I´m far from an expert.
There is no need to stick to Buttkicker brand, you could also use exciters/transducers such as the recommended Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster
Placement: we are lately discussing about 4-6 for seat (3xside, shoulders, lumbar area, thighs), and 2 for pedal board (left and right, do not attach them to the pedal axis).
Amps from 100€ and on: HA6000, HA8000
# of amps depends on how many units you need, but long story short unless I´m very much mistaken, you need one amp channel per unit.
I strongly believe you only need two sound devices.

The ideal setup would be feed from bass sound and telemetry, that way the shaking will be different if you are drinving a V12 Aston GT3, compare to 4-cylinder Toyota GT86 street car.

Let´s say HA6000 amp (6 channels) to power 6 exciters for your seat, and maybe a smaller/cheaper 2-channel amp to power to exciters for your pedal board.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The point of this thread is to be more specific. There is another tactile thread spanning a very wide range of possibilities.

The reason the BK LFE is mentioned is that it has a 1.5 lb piston that allows it to go to much lower frequencies than the others do. I'm getting by nicely with 4 x Aura Pros, right now but I'm not suggesting they can compare with the power of an LFE. They can't.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

The point of this thread is to be more specific. There is another tactile thread spanning a very wide range of possibilities.

The reason the BK LFE is mentioned is that it has a 1.5 lb piston that allows it to go to much lower frequencies than the others do. I'm getting by nicely with 4 x Aura Pros, right now but I'm not suggesting they can compare with the power of an LFE. They can't.

Oh you are right regarding the different threads

 

[Mr Latte]

Great write up! Most say it's very convenient to find this thread as I'm looking at "upgrading" my rig, until now mostly had the idea that BK was more to add some "buzz" in the rig. Had thoughts using motion, but not sure I really wan't the extra "fuzz" that it could lead to, read that some people also tend to not be using it after a while. I'm already using Simhub for my USBD480 display, so the possibility to use the same software is an plus as well.

I'm on an 8020 rig with an race car seat, and have good possibility to create or mount brackets needed, but still after your very detailed write up, it's not clear to me what an good or "optimal" hardware setup could look like to be able to estimate what is needed in total? I'm currently on an white paper here

Would both of these BK have equal result/performance?
How many BK is needed, and where should they be placed?
Would any of the Amps be Ok, quite big difference between an 1000 and 6000 model?
How many Amps are needed, one for each BK?
How to communicate with the Amps, separate sound-card for each?

During test you are using an specific car/track combo. Will tuning of BK (in general) require an specific sim/car/track setup or would it be possibly to find an generic configuration (or maybe for each sim) that works fine (maybe not optimal) for most combinations?

Sorry for all the basic questions, all new to this

Hi, we do seem to have a few people interested in getting into tactile at the moment or are quite new to the forums. It is a topic I have covered a lot. Please search and you will find answers to those points you raised.

This thread is not intended for all things tactile or beginners into tactile, its focus is on how to take the largest Buttkicker units and get the best lowest bass immersion possible from them.

I was offering to share amplifier profiles to control the amps "bass output" for this and with building effects specifically for these units as I will use several of them in my own experimental rig. Quite a bit of time has been invested into such and I have been curious how other people use these or if they are maximising their potential in similar ways?

The NX3000D series amp with the needed connectors, cabling etc and two of the above units, would cost in the region of £900. So this is quite a serious level of hardware into this form of immersion.

The idea was to offer help and share things I have learned in using or incorporating these into a build with the benefits DSP can offer. Many hours have been put towards creating test effects using the lowest Hz possible to deliver very powerful levels of bass and making a rig more emotional/involving/exciting with the goal to take the quality of immersion to a professional standard of performance beyond the current level most users experience tactile in.

 

[Mr Latte]

These are the latest effects ready specially created for low bass extension.
They will make your unit work real hard as they bring a high level of bass/energy to represent these specific effects.

A couple of BK Advance owners have contacted me in also wanting to test so while for my own build I seek to use the DSP and control the bass better suited to my installation and preference. These effects were tested with no DSP on to replicate what people with normal amps may experience.

Some people have large BK units but not the DSP and wanted to know if the effects would still work well for them.

Contact me via PM if interested as these will only be shared privately with owners of
BK LFE / BK Concert / BK Advance

 

[Ormy]

Deleted.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Ormy

This is why trying to do such threads on RD forums is like a waste of time, even in light of the current situation these forums have been heaving with people. Look at this thread as an example that took a bit of time and effort to put together, what did it achieve or do and this as far back in Jan, so plenty of time has passed.

Lets Have A Moan
Half the people that responded don't own the units in question being used and they want to talk about tactile in general. Err thats not what the topic of the thread is about. Then those that actually do own the hardware most ignore the thread or don't bother discussing what settings they use. They do not want it seems to share effects/settings they use, nor try working towards improving the immersion we can get.

We only improve with experience and testing. These units to work best need a lot of testing experience with boosting the bass curve and continued effects creation to get the best from them. So have a look again and see how many large BK users took part in growing this thread with interest or helping others coming into tactile seeking these or having spent a lot of money buying these units.


Take - Dont Give
I'm also getting a bit scunnered giving people various test effects in PM under faith in the condition they further help to give their own feedback. As effects have had many hours of experimentation put into them (some more than others) and then guess what, they don't bother their arse helping with feedback or trying to adapt the effects settings to work better, giving input for sorting issues/problems or improve the effects. Ive found me staying up to 5am talking to people in other timezones trying to help them as people know my passion with this. Those that have helped, know who they are and I thank them for the feedback they gave and continue to give.

The goal with the thread was sharing my own testing research and pushing the large BK units to output their very best bass potential with the sub 20Hz and to achieve that without having piston pang issues. You don't manage that in a few minutes and with the settings you mentioned. To do this properly we also need to monitor and understand what frequencies the effects are generating, not just going by feel in our pants.

Awareness Of Different User Requirements
What different people want or need varies as users with only large BK will want more Hz response, those with other tactile will use the large BK for the very lowest bass only and then REALLY crank that. So this is why various crossover/filters are looked at to find solutions that worked in both scenarios.

A B C 1 2 3 / Tried Tested
Its very easy for people to load in pre-saved profiles with good settings for the amps and Simhub.
While this thread kinda went nowhere 3 Private tests were even done at different times with small groups and more than 12 users to determine if most users were happy with settings applied but owning very different rigs and with different installations. The compatibility was very good so we know we are on the right track even though more work can be done with the effects themselves we were able to achieve very meaty/powerful output from the units and demoed this in rpm/speed/gear sensations via tests.

So even those with no clue about audio or that do not want additional "audio software" to learn/configure as they dont quite understand it all could easily get up and running using the DSP of the amps and loading saved profiles. Then loading pre-tested effects and these only need to be selected to the appropriate channels and adjust volumes to suit.

Pro User Pushing Boundaries / The Tweaker / The Early Adopter
So different aspects in users and their interests and things have moved on since this thread, we have various options for DSP and features like (Realtime Dynamic EQ) in Fabfilter ProQ3 via an audio interface. That route will bring the very best control and results that I have found. Some are going this route but good results can still be found with the DSP on the amps and they very much are set and forget with no hassle.

As for EQ APO, it has its uses but telling people we don't need other DSP, errrr okay, so you've tried various options with multi-channel or more than one soundcard? Sorry, I don't quite agree with your comment at all, based on findings and helping others but you are more than welcome to share your own findings in a new thread of your own using APO but hopefully it has more success than this one.

 

[wingert]

My experience is only using road impacts, rumble,vibration on Buttkicker LFEs, and RPM on seperate Buttkicker mini, imo. other effected are more fantasy.For Example gearshift, I have always output while disengage the gear that is not real practical, better result I have getting from a motion surge system.
Imo Driving G-Forces are not replicable with a static driver, for speed the human has no sensation except in open cars by wind.
Important is having mounted the Buttkicker on a swinging elastically system like springs and springboard using only a single lowest possible frequency in my case 8 Hz for LFEs with linear response curve and 13 for mini with a decreasing response curve on higher gain.

 

[Ormy]

You don't manage that in a few minutes and with the settings you mentioned.

There's no need to be rude.

Take - Dont Give
I'm also getting a bit scunnered giving people various test effects in PM under faith in the condition they further help to give their own feedback. As effects have had many hours of experimentation put into them (some more than others) and then guess what, they don't bother their arse helping with feedback or trying to adapt the effects settings to work better, giving input for sorting issues/problems or improve the effects.

Send me your effects, I'll give you proper feedback.

As for EQ APO, it has its uses but telling people we don't need other DSP, errrr okay, so you've tried various options with multi-channel or more than one soundcard? Sorry, I don't quite agree with your comment at all, based on findings and helping others but you are more than welcome to share your own findings in a new thread of your own using APO but hopefully it has more success than this one.

Fair enough, I've deleted my post, sorry I disturbed your thread.