Simucube 2 SPORT vs. PRO
- Thread starter hishams89
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What I'm posting here is strictly opinion based on research and observation since i do not own a dd wheel. The SC2 was on my very short list of dd wheels i am considering. I settled on the Pro for 2 reasons. One, after watching some videos which showed the torque on the wheel while racing, i realized having the higher numbers of the Pro provided more headroom to handle ffb spikes without clipping. Two, the slew rate of the Pro is nearly double of the Sport. This provides more immediate reaction to ffb forces from the sim which, imo, is pretty important with any ffb wheel.
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I'd be interested to see a comparison with both SC2 systems with the SimuCube1 / Small Mige too. I expect the differences to be fairly subtle in actual feel but, the Sport would likely be enough torque for my needs. I typically run in-game force settings between 35-50% with SC1 but, the upgrade would not be justified without some benefit in fidelity.
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I'd go with the Sport. The maximum acceleration and RPM possible with the Sport is already almost certainly much faster than experienced in real life racing (except maybe a sudden massive accident in real-life which seems to be fairly similar to speeds and accelerations exhibited by DD wheels). Same with slew-rate, the fidelity and "sharpness" that that slew-rate offers on the Sport is probably more than needed anyway. In fact, you'll probably wan't to lower the slew-rate any ways as people have been finding that decreasing these DD wheels' output "sharpness" / "acceleration" - via lowering the torque slew-rate - often results in a better feeling & more realistic FFB behavior than not lowering torque slew-rate but adding more damper & friction.
Even though I'm recommending the Sport, I personally went with the Pro. The reasons are:
- the Sport does not offer "torque slew rate limit" adjustments (I believe lowering this setting can help in providing more realistic FFB)
- the Sport does not offer "non-linear force saturation" adjustments (this filter has not yet been implemented by Granity but it will and it's in their ads)
- I figure since the Pro's motor is made to handle higher torque, it'll be getting "stressed" less than the Sport for the same amount of torque. Having said that, I bet the Sport will be just as reliable.
If Granity change their mind later and make the torque slew-rate and non-linear force saturation settings also available to Sport owners, then I'll probably slightly regret getting the Pro over the Sport. You save a decent chunk of money with the Sport, it's smaller (shorter), lighter, and only requires 1 power cord & brick. And last but not least - but this is pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt - smaller DD motors tend to have less inertia which means more fidelic and detailed forces (everything else being equal).
Even though I'm recommending the Sport, I personally went with the Pro. The reasons are:
- the Sport does not offer "torque slew rate limit" adjustments (I believe lowering this setting can help in providing more realistic FFB)
- the Sport does not offer "non-linear force saturation" adjustments (this filter has not yet been implemented by Granity but it will and it's in their ads)
- I figure since the Pro's motor is made to handle higher torque, it'll be getting "stressed" less than the Sport for the same amount of torque. Having said that, I bet the Sport will be just as reliable.
If Granity change their mind later and make the torque slew-rate and non-linear force saturation settings also available to Sport owners, then I'll probably slightly regret getting the Pro over the Sport. You save a decent chunk of money with the Sport, it's smaller (shorter), lighter, and only requires 1 power cord & brick. And last but not least - but this is pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt - smaller DD motors tend to have less inertia which means more fidelic and detailed forces (everything else being equal).
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RCHeliguy
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My wild guess is the Pro is somewhere around 80% of their sales, with the Ultimate at 5% and the Sport at 15%.
The Ultimate will sell 5% just because it's there and money would left on the floor if they didn't offer it.
The Sport model is in a market that I consider a bit nebulous. I don't expect to run more than 10-12 Nm, but I understand the need for headroom to avoid clipping. In a amplifier I would expect the peak power to be 2-3 times the RMS or max steady state value to avoid clipping. From what I've read these motors may not quite need that much, but a buffer is important. So that would mean running the SC2 Sport at about 8Nm or the same power as a CS 2.5 wheelbase.
The $200 difference doesn't seem to me like it should be significant because of the cost of new steering wheels or converting Fanatec wheels over, but it still may be an important price point.
The slew rate should be directly related to immediacy and accuracy. There are filters that are supposed to smooth out graininess, but that is different from covering up detail. Ideally that is more like a good DAC upsampling and interpolating a digital music signal to create a smoother analog signal.
I don't know the specifics of these filters, but I keep hearing how great the SC2 Pro feels in iRacing and yet iRacing's FFB resolution is supposed to only be 60 fps and the filtering is supposed to make that feel great.
The Ultimate will sell 5% just because it's there and money would left on the floor if they didn't offer it.
The Sport model is in a market that I consider a bit nebulous. I don't expect to run more than 10-12 Nm, but I understand the need for headroom to avoid clipping. In a amplifier I would expect the peak power to be 2-3 times the RMS or max steady state value to avoid clipping. From what I've read these motors may not quite need that much, but a buffer is important. So that would mean running the SC2 Sport at about 8Nm or the same power as a CS 2.5 wheelbase.
The $200 difference doesn't seem to me like it should be significant because of the cost of new steering wheels or converting Fanatec wheels over, but it still may be an important price point.
The slew rate should be directly related to immediacy and accuracy. There are filters that are supposed to smooth out graininess, but that is different from covering up detail. Ideally that is more like a good DAC upsampling and interpolating a digital music signal to create a smoother analog signal.
I don't know the specifics of these filters, but I keep hearing how great the SC2 Pro feels in iRacing and yet iRacing's FFB resolution is supposed to only be 60 fps and the filtering is supposed to make that feel great.
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In regard to iRacing, the game ffb is certainly low on surface detail compared to most titles. The low ffb resolution is an obvious limitation but, some players like using irffb as a work-a-round. I've tried it and didn't like the results (irffb). The telemetry effects in SimCommander work much better imo but, GD has focused much of their attention on iRacing so they may have incorporated a bit of magic-sauce where iRacing-ffb is concerned (hence the SC2 processor design).
AFAIK, there is no way to increase the ffb resolution - even through up-sampling the game telemetry, without inducing some input lag. I suspect GD has found a way to minimize that side-effect to good result in the case of iRacing.
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RCHeliguy
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Don't worry, it doesn't work like speaker/amplifier RMS and peak power levels. If you get a Sport, run it at a max setting of (eg.) 12, 15, or 17 Nm all day. These devices are meant to constantly run at those types of levels. Don't worry
I'm not worried about the device burning up in the least. Just like I'm not worried about an amplifier clipping. The amplifier is fine. It just sounds bad. The same difference here. If you are loaded up in a corner and the motor is already pushing hard and it gets a signal beyond that it will clip which won't feel good.
You noticed that Beano said he liked the Ultimate because he could run it harder without clipping. He isn't running anywhere close to the maximum Nm, but then it has room to give him a quick spike so he can still feel detail. He also runs the Pro well down from it max limit so it has headroom so you can feel detail.
That's why I said 8 Nm on the Sport. Maybe you would want to push as high as 10, but you will be losing detail because the motor won't have any room to go when you are pushing it in a corner.
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I don't think you need as much headroom as you suggest though, and when clipping occurs, you are simply losing detail and experience only constant spring force so it becomes quite obvious with DD. I'd even say soft-clipping is a non-issue with some pretty basic tuning knowledge.
Also, keep in mind that Beano is a large-framed man that likes to go to the Gym so his preference in level of FFB force has always been quite extreme by the average persons standard. He can afford to push the limits to the point where clipping may occur, even with high Nm ratings. Once the wheel is controlling you more than you are controlling the car, you know you are exceeding the practical force limits. You can do it for a while but, it gets old pretty fast.
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Hello man, I find it interesting that you are recommending Sport eventhough you own the PRO.
According to your recommendation you are somehw saying that "torque slew rate limit" and "non-linear force saturation" (which is not available on the SPORT) is not that important, or it is not worth the extra money. Or?
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Trust me, you can run way higher than 10 Nm and still have room to feel more. You can be loaded up at 15 or 16 Nm and still feel more. Plus, even if you're loaded up at, let's say at a static 17 Nm, the wheel can still move with harsh speed/power left or right to signify a bump. Mostly the only time you can run into issues is if you turn the wheel, let's say 100 degrees, your steering loads up with a constant 17 Nm of resistance, now you realise you have more grip available and turn the wheel even more to 120 degrees but there's no more power remaining for the wheel to add (since it was at 17 Nm at 100 degrees). I highly doubt you'll come across an issue like this as a static 17 Nm resisting your inputs is extremely heavy.
Plus, you can get practically wrist/finger snapping power & acceleration from an Accuforce at 14 Nm. 99% of people will have tons of headrom even at 17 Nm max. I tried playing with the AMS F3 car with in-game FFB set to around 80-ish percent give or take (to have the car just on the edge of software clipping) while setting my wheel to 18 Nm (Simucube 1, large Mige). Trust me, the power...maybe not so much the power but the FFB behaviour is ridiculous. Often it feels like you're just holding on while the wheel's controlling you. The S.A.T. force is wayyy insanely over-exaggerated. You feel like your wrists are going to break when trying to hold/correct some of the bigger slides. Half/full spins require you to fully let go of the wheel (like real-life drivers do in big crashes) because the wheel wants to keep turning - even against your will - all the way to full opposite lock with such wrist-breaking power. The only way to limit this unrealism (with current FFB tech) is to add/increase filter-settings. However, adding a bunch of friction, damper, etc. has it's own drawbacks (since they're always on).
Granity have looked into a S.A.T. filter to help alleviate this issue with our FFB games (and current FFB tech) as I suggested to them in their official forums but they said it will be almost impossible without using telemetry-based filters (which they don't currently offer).
Honestly, I think 99% of people would be fine with the Sport even if they want headroom for lots of power. If you don't care about the $200 USD more + longer & heavier wheelbase + 2 power cords & bricks instead of 1, then go for the Pro, why not?
This is strange. Ads state that the Sport model will not get torque slew-rate adjusments nor the FFB linearity/sensitivty adjustment filter when it becomes available. I thought Granity purposely did this as a marketing strategy to drive more sales away from the Sport to the Pro.
From SimRacing Bay website (slightly edited by me):
They should fix that if it's false information. I may have purchased the Sport and put the extra $200 into a set of HE Sprint or PST PT2 pedals instead
Hi hishams. If the "torque slew rate limit" and "non-linear force saturation" is also available on the Sport which it is (according to alfye's picture) then I am even more in favour of the Sport. If I knew the Sport would receive all the filters the Pro would receive then I would have easily purchased the Sport over the Pro and put the $200 USD (or more after taxes) towards a set of pedals (or something else you may be thinking of purchasing like a wheel-rim, cockpit, shifter, monitor, etc.).
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Deleted member 197115
Isn't that what new Static Force Reduction filter supposed to help with?
Static Force Reduction
This effect reduces force in long corners, while at the same time, letting the sharp details from kerbs and the road surface through to the wheel. This is useful when the Driver wants to feel every detail with full strength torque effects but does not want to fight against the wheel constantly.
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That filter is more designed for steering application (adding steering lock) and holding steering lock but I'm betting you're correct and I'm guessing it may have the knock-on effect of helping with S.A.T. too. That filter is what I personally refer to as a "dumb" filter/effect though (ie. baked in the motor's FFB like inertia, damper, friction, etc.), it's not what I refer to as a "smart" filter/effect (ie. telemetry-based) therefore It'll apply to all FFB/steering movements that it's designed to affect rather than dynamically work with specifically just S.A.T.
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