Some FFB Questions

Spinelli · Apr 9, 2016

1,a) What's Overall FFB Actually Doing?
What exactly does the in-game FFB overall strength slider do? If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't control, nor is it "connected", to RealFeel, so what really is it adjusting?

1,b)
How does it tie-in with RealFeel's "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" (I'm guessing "MaxForceAtSteeringRack" is like rFactor 2's "Nominal Max Steering Torque" AKA "NMST")?

2,a) "Friction Coefficient": Negative and Half of "Damper Coefficient"?
Many guides and websites state that the controller.ini's "Friction Coefficient" should be A. set to a negative value ("Damper Coefficient" stays positive), and B. set to around 50% of the value of "Damper Coefficient". Is this true?

2,b)
Would this make no difference, at all, if using FFB mode "Pure"/"Low"?

3) "Force Exponent": Overall FFB Strength Output Linearity?
"FFB Steer Force Exponent" in the controller.ini sounds like it's the overall FFB output linearity (like rFactor 2's "Steering Torque Sensitivity" AKA "STS"). Is this true and does this setting still apply when using RealFeel and FFB mode "Pure"/"Low"?

4) "Force Output Max": 0.0 to Truly Use "Pure" FFB?
I've read from at-least two people that to truly disable all original FFB (except rumble-strip effects just in-case you race on a track which uses fake rumble strips), and therefore only use RealFeel FFB, that the controller.ini's "Steer Force Output Max" must be set to 0. Is this true?

5) "Force Input Max": Magical Value for Increased FFB Fidelity?
I remember reading a ton about changing the controller.ini's "Force Input Max" from 11500 to 65535. I think there's a setting in the RealFeel.ini containing the same value which you're then supposed to change and match (65535 instead of 11500). The 65535 value apparently offers greater fidelity/depth to the FFB or something. Is this true?

SLuisHamilton · Apr 10, 2016

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=261644
This thread should help you since, i think (at least same parameters are used on realfeel ini) automobilista ffb is the same of GSc which was a mix of realfeel and leobodnar plugin
I have a question too: if i turn DefaultSmoothingLevel to 0, it will change all setting i already have in the file or only new mods?

edit: nevermind. will try here

edit2: is there some ingame setting for smoothing level?

Spinelli · Apr 15, 2016

That thread is actually where I got some of the info in my OP's questions

There seems to be conflicting info though. For example, in that thread, it says the following:

- Ks // leo's "aligning moment curve shape / feeling of tyre losing grip" setting

- A // leo's "wheel rubber hardness" setting

- Kr // leo's "how quickly static forces drop off when rolling" setting

Sounds great, those settings all sound like they would affect FFB quite a bit but, on the other hand, Niel H. himself has said that those settings are only "parking lot" forces - meaning when you're stopped or almost stopped. So who is correct?

On another note, can somebody give any advice for RealFeel settings with regards to MaxForceAtSteeringRack? I am using Motec and it shows that the F3 hits around 13,000 N on some laps, some other laps 9000, some 7000, and so on and I don't know what I should set the RealFeel value to...It seems that it hits around 4500 to 5000 on every lap so I'm thinking that I should maybe set it to 6000?

SLuisHamilton · Apr 15, 2016

Spinelli said:
- Ks // leo's "aligning moment curve shape / feeling of tyre losing grip" setting

- A // leo's "wheel rubber hardness" setting

- Kr // leo's "how quickly static forces drop off when rolling" setting

Sounds great, those settings all sound like they would affect FFB quite a bit but, on the other hand, Niel H. himself has said that those settings are only "parking lot" forces - meaning when you're stopped or almost stopped. So who is correct?

TechAde. Neils only make vídeos for youtube

TechAde words:

I have implemented Leo's "Parking Lot" FFB code which now cuts in when vehicle speed is below 'MinSpeed' as defined in the RealFeel ini. Quite what the various parameters mean I'm not too sure as it's just a copy of Leo's code.

Spinelli · Apr 15, 2016

Ok so those effects are indeed only for "parking lot" speeds and therefore have nothing to do with feeling grip?

Marc Collins · Apr 15, 2016

If you want to play with FFB to really feel what is going on, the easiest way is to pick a favourite car, preferably one with downforce so you can feel that effect along with the mechanical grip effects. I suggest F3, but whatever

Edit the RealFeelPlugin.ini value for that car (for example for F3, there are two entries: [F309:] and [F301:] depending on which one you prefer and select in the UI menu). Only one line needs attention:

FrontGripEffect=0.200000

The default is 0.200000. Set it to 1.000000 and drive for a while. Then 0.800000. Then back to 0.200000 and then finally to 0.000000. I can tell you what I prefer with my wheel, but that's probably irrelevant since you have a wheel that doesn't work like most. So with those four data points, you should be able to then select an appropriate value for you (which might be a fifth number).

For me, as soon as I found the right number, I was able to change every single car over to the new value. I plodded along testing one by one, but soon realized they all felt better at the same preferred number.

Cautions: the latest update reset all of my cars back to 0.20000. My FFB already felt awesome out of the box, so this was just the icing on the cake. But I think it might help someone who is having difficulty with their overall set-up to diagnose what is missing. If something's missing, it will likely relate to the very basic spring versus damping balancing act that all FFB requires (and operates frustratingly differently on different wheels). The FFB in AMS is very close to the fidelity of rF2 now--perhaps indistinguishable on average quality equipment. It is missing some aspects of the rF2 physics, but actually feels more natural and consistent for an individual vehicle and across the whole sim garage of vehicles in the title. rF2 would have to tweak every car to get them using the same generation of FFB and physics and have someone spend a lot of time balancing things to achieve what we already have in AMS. And, we can tweak in AMS...

Spinelli · Apr 15, 2016

Well I don't want to go into a comparison/debate on physics cause I could go on forever about that (especially regarding some very long-standing issues in the ISI engines for about 15 years now) but I definitely agree that Reiza has done a remarkable job in having every vehicle across the game consistent with one-another unlike some other games, as you mentioned, where it's all over the place and an un-refined mess.

But, ya, I'm trying to find what number I should use for RealFeel's MaxForceAtSteeringRack in order to achieve more range of forces.

The F3 F301 comes default with about 2500 or 3000 N but in Motec I've seen numbers reach over 13,000 during a few laps around Brasilia (almost-default setup) and I'm just not sure how high I should go since a lot of these are probably fractions of fractions of a second. Is there a way to setup Motec to ignore any extraordinarily small detections? I'm thinking I should set RealFeel to somewhere between 5000 and 8500 N for the F301 but I'm not really sure.

David Dominguez · Apr 15, 2016

Spinelli said:
Is there a way to setup Motec to ignore any extraordinarily small detections? I'm thinking I should set RealFeel to somewhere between 5000 and 8500 N for the F301 but I'm not really sure.

Add some filtering (ctrl+shift+F, then put more samples).

Spinelli · Apr 16, 2016

Sweet thanks! The filtering is exactly what I was looking for

I have my Motec in the AM PLR file (or the Motec txt file or whatever) set to the highest sampling rate: I think it's 100 Hz. Is that what you're talking about?

David Dominguez · Apr 16, 2016

No, press those keys inside motec, with a log loaded (and with the Steering Arm Force channel selected)

tpw · Apr 16, 2016

Spinelli said:
But, ya, I'm trying to find what number I should use for RealFeel's MaxForceAtSteeringRack in order to achieve more range of forces.

MaxForceAtSteeringRack is sort of like an FFB multiplier for each car. Say a car has MaxForceAtSteeringRack = 3000 and you think it's too heavy. Setting it to 4000 will make the steering that much lighter (ie decreased range of force). Set it to 10000 and it will be extremely light. Setting it closer to 0, eg 2000, will make the steering heavier (ie increased range of force). Set it to 200 and you'll barely be able to turn the wheel!

Not sure if this helps in your quest, sorry if not.

Spinelli · Apr 17, 2016

I know, tbw, but thank you

Spinelli · Apr 18, 2016

OK so I never even knew a Reiza forum website existed until a few days ago so I signed up and posted there. Answers are directly from Niels H.

"Answers to my knowledge, but when in doubt, test some extremes to see if it indeed doesn't matter (or does)

1) The in game FFB strenght slider changes ALL FFB, including realfeel. Literally everything, so if you use damper in the controller.ini, or kerb pull factor or any effect, or realfeel, all get multiplied by the in game FFB strength %.

2) I've never used friction. Pure (what was LOW before) doesn't use damping, probably doesn't use friction either. Friction by definition goes against something, so I would be very surprised if the value would make any sense if you set it negatively!

3) Force Exponent shouldn't affect realfeel. I doubt it affects the 'fake effects' much and I would assume it only affects the 'rFactor original' steering force FFB. I'm not 100% sure on this at the moment, why not try 'pure' FFB and some super extremes of the exponent?

4) Force output max should not play a role, if the realfeelplugin.ini file has the 'FFBmixerrealfeelpercent' at 100, but I may not have double checked this..

5) Force Input Max is a nice myth from the past. First it shows how people overrate the ability of their FFB wheels, thinking that 23000 steps of FFB strength isn't enough.. And it would only be true if the FFB was calculated as an integer.

I've had some strange things happen with FFB reversing at some point, but in general, this value is fine even at 1, showing that, realfeel at least, doesn't use integers but probably uses floats or doubles, giving us 'many digits' after the comma and 'about a million or more' steps of force."

Original Post: http://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/automobilista-how-the-ffb-works-and-what-is-new-about-it.45/#post-3250