Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Simlab rigs are rather small, let me highlight something that most still may not have grasped.

It's actually quite hard to get good working stereo in pedals and with standard pedal installs yet so many people that get into tactile think oh they need 4 units to make it cool and in corner type positions for representing the wheels/suspension. They see this as the ideal approach to either buy or work towards.

Most of this below will likely be ignored, so feel free to skip this or perhaps stop for a moment, listen to what I offer to consider.

Spoiler: Warning Requires Alternative Route

If you have a section of wood/metal with two units installed on it and they are only a few inches apart, someone just explain to me how they think those two units are going to work and be felt independently? Clearly the energy from a left unit will also still be felt on the right-hand side of the pedal platform. I have been here, I did the same things and mistakes when I was new to tactile.

Factors mentioned/shown recently.

1. Isolating the pedal platform will help improve and maintain the energy, it will not likely help improve the stereo crosstalk.
2. Having two units under your heels will let you feel the energy directly but it will no doubt make it also very easy for energy from each unit to be felt in both feet. This to me may help improve the efficiency of felt energy but still will have issues with corrupted stereo.

Trace / Extend / Control:
A key factor is tracing the point of impact a unit has, where its energy can/will travel and how it may travel to other places. If we take this into account and try to control this, if we lengthen the distance via pathway methods the energy has or can only travel then we can improve the stereo crosstalk. As the further we increase this then the less energy it will have on the opposite side and we also alter the timing.

Narrow cockpits and with very little distance for the energy to travel from L/R units to L/R pedals will have issues with stereo crosstalk. Some improvements are possible but......

Ask yourself this....
Taking into account a specialist modification and extra materials as well as costs, it may require to help better control the pathway of the tactile to improve the stereo output.

Would "The User" not actually be better in considering to avoid having stereo (in pedals) with the additional complications involved and instead of using two units like Aura Pro or BK Mini (typical choices).

I would recommend installing a single TST (209) or (239) but have it combined with a larger BK like the medium-sized BK Advance or indeed the LFE or Concert models. Do this in stages as someting to work towards if need be but if you have work towards this rather than the common approach and buying two budget or entry-level units with the limitations in performance those tend to have.


Why you says this Mr Latte, maybe your milk is off?
Ahhh, as this option you will not have to worry about stereo in pedals, seek to modify or complicate things and you get big smiley bonus with...

A) Much better lower bass response and far more energy
B) Much better mid-high frequency and more finer detailing

Note that when A/B factors above are combined together, they tend to make a dramatic impact on both the quality and enjoyment of whatever effects you want to use. Regardless if it is RPM/SPEED, bumps, wheel slip or high energy braking/deceleration.

 

[millen]

Just chiming in here Mr Latte, but I agree... having 'stereo' effects for your pedals seems silly, when driving my real car, I do not feel only vibrations from my right tyres/side of car only in my right foot... the effects are far more 'spread out' than a simple right foot feels right hand side and left foot feels left hand side...

 

[Mr Latte]

Just chiming in here Mr Latte, but I agree... having 'stereo' effects for your pedals seems silly, when driving my real car, I do not feel only vibrations from my right tyres/side of car only in my right foot... the effects are far more 'spread out' than a simple right foot feels right hand side and left foot feels left hand side...

Yes, true but "immersion" is not always seeking realism or accuracy.
Stereo is good when/if you get it working well in both seat and pedals.

My own build is being built to maximize stereo effects, so I have done plenty of tests regarding it over the last 2 or so years.

Yet I assure you that if people do nice stereo in the seat (where it matters more) and only had mono in pedals, some people or those not trained to know to look for it wouldn't likely even realise.

 

[millen]

Right, so putting myself out there for massive ridicule and LOLs....

So, say if you, had say, 4 x Aura or MiniLFE shakers (these I havn't bought yet) and 4 x Dayton pucks... where would you put them? (and no, you can't answer 'in the trash')

I have an MDF and Pine F1 style rig, with a carved 'expander foam' seat. As seen in attached image... I realise the whole rig is most likely just going to shake from 1 shaker...

Going conventional route I was to put 1 aura/mini LFE at each corner, then the Daytons underneath my seat, two Daytons for 'shifter' effects and 2 daytons for 'seat' effects... this was planned when going to use SimVibe, but thinking I'll go with simHub or SRS instead.

Have at me...

 

[Mr Latte]

Right, so putting myself out there for massive ridicule and LOLs....

So, say if you, had say, 4 x Aura or MiniLFE shakers (these I havn't bought yet) and 4 x Dayton pucks... where would you put them? (and no, you can't answer 'in the trash')

I have an MDF and Pine F1 style rig, with a carved 'expander foam' seat. As seen in attached image... I realise the whole rig is most likely just going to shake from 1 shaker...

Going conventional route I was to put 1 aura/mini LFE at each corner, then the Daytons underneath my seat, two Daytons for 'shifter' effects and 2 daytons for 'seat' effects... this was planned when going to use SimVibe, but thinking I'll go with simHub or SRS instead.

Have at me...



View attachment 367146

Thank you for confirming how peoples "mindset" revolves around the need for 4 corner units.

With large boards like that and which are interconnected, you will have very little control over the dispersion of the unit's energy with individual channels. I would focus just on a unit for pedals and a unit for the seat placed on isolated risers for seat/pedals. Using isolators and antivibration as well as noise reduction materials then underneath the riser sections, for the main-frame/boards. This would help give good energy in the seat/pedals but reduce the vibes going into the rest of the rig, it still will happen but controlling the energy escaping the risers would be a good thing in my mind.

Regards your rig shown, what is the point of having 4 corner units, if you will likely not feel the individual positional placement of them?
A user if, faced with this potential issue is better to buy 1 or 2 better performing tactile units than 4 cheap ones. I would also advise of a seat that would let you install multiple exciters as this will bring you good stereo effects in the seat for very little money.

Each board will likely become active and transmit vibes to other structural sections and then into other boards that are also in contact with each other. When this happens you may increase the volume as the energy is spreading over a larger area but one other factor this adding more volume/energy can attribute to being an issue with a higher output level, the wood will generate increased reverb noise. Some isolation materials may reduce this but it could still be a factor with harmonics in effects as the wood itself will react like a speaker.

The reverb can happen with 8020 as well, just listen to how bad the D-Box (Tactile Test) that appears to use a bass sweep sounds on the 8020 rig Barry has it installed too. Not saying this may just be a D-Box issue neither. Users with BK or other tactile if they too did a bass sweep test it may sound similar, anyone want to confirm this with main rig mounted tactile to 8020 and using highish volumes?

See 46 mins, listen as it sounds bad to me anyways.

He did in fairness mention it's default setting (40) was too high or intense. I suppose this is to accommodate the different sizes of rigs or indeed different materials some rigs may use but I certainly would not want my tactile operation to sound like that or just think how that noise/vibration could travel into other rooms in wooden floor house, attics or apartments.

Corner placed tactile generally needs to be set higher/strong for its vibrations to reach the user's feet or seat regions, the bass going all over the frame is wasted, you will only feel the energy via your contact body regions. This is why you find people with such installations will typically drive their tactile harder to then compensate for the loss of the energy or how it freely spreads openly over the main rig frame. My point here is that the energy is not being channeled or controlled to a confined area.

Personally for me, I would say better tactile is achieved when we more directly connect it to the seat/pedal regions, isolate these as platforms decoupling them from the main rig and then seek to control better the path the tactile can flow. This is why my own build is containing a metal tubing construct for the purpose of controlling the flow of the tactile as such testing/experimentation I did showed this to improve the immersion.

Obtaining a good response from 5-200Hz for some people should be more of a priority than the desire of installing 4,6,8 units that only work well generally with a 40-80Hz range. I still say that on a budget you won't beat 4-6 of the recommended exciters attached on a suitable seat and then later add to this a larger BK unit and expand from that if desired. Yet look how lightly that has been adopted here or people seeking to work together on effects that work well with that implementation.

People will do what they want, or just go more with the typical trends others have gone with... This includes the "I need units for 4 corners" mindset will likely not change very quickly.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I was thinking about how this works.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the legs were vibrating at any speed to speak of independently of each other, wouldn't it be easy to pull a leg off the floor making a horrible racket?

My thoughts are that they could only make this work well at lower frequencies and an amplitude where the chassis could move enough by gravity to keep continuous contact with the floor.

 

[Mr Latte]

I was thinking about how this works.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the legs were vibrating at any speed to speak of independently of each other, wouldn't it be easy to pull a leg off the floor making a horrible racket?

My thoughts are that they could only make this work well at lower frequencies and an amplitude where the chassis could move enough by gravity to keep continuous contact with the floor.

I don't know what you mean.
Does not appear each actuator works independently regards the Hz it uses as the user cannot define them independently or even as front/rear pairs.
So I assume (until someone clarifies) that while it has vibrational feedback it is limited in what it can do or in how it can be controlled when we look at options like Simhub.

I would suspect that even the engines are rather basic too just as I assume they are on VR3 tactile feedback?
Curious what owners think but depends what you are used to I suppose if any of the tactile based effects on VR3/D Box are that good?

 

[Mr Latte]

Looks like Douk Audio (Nobsound) have a new and possibly quite good 4 channel budget amp being released that works with 4-8ohm.

I think this is the first 4 channel option I have seen from them and this might be ideal for people buying exciters or other budget transducers rated to about 50W max.

UK Here

 

[Mr Latte]

One of my current bits of experimentation with "RPM Engine" based tactile immersion has been to try and be creative in attempting to match tone generated effects in Simhub more to the actual car being driven. This is a personal goal, a mission I want to pursue as I do not see others talking about it or trying to accomplish it.

As mentioned in this thread a few times, we can, by all means, use "Game Audio" to help bring more of the character of the car into the felt tactile and while this can be hit/miss as I firmly believe based on testing that to do this properly requires modifying and controlling the audio to better suit tactile. Then it can be mixed in with Simhub based tactile effects or if the user wants to have tactile units for this role installed with tactile for Simhub effects roles work together.

That requires a fair bit of effort and additional money which for some they will just not want to consider as worthwhile.
So what's this alternative approach I am talking about?

Most people with engine based effects in Simhub may have quite basic RPM sensations, Here are examples in what I try to bring as scenarios to be felt across the RPM range:

• Idle RPM sensation
• Inertia / low range torque
• Low - high intensity as RPM increases
• Peak RPM sensation at the desired rev range
• Max RPM on the limiter sensation
  
  
  

 

[Mr Latte]

Now you cant achieve that with default effects or a single layer but I have found it quite awesome that very good engine sensations incorporating the above are possible with only 5-6 layers. Something like this used to take me 10 layers or more but progress always comes if we keep learning and experimenting.

My own preference is still to use the RPM (Response Filter) based effect although Simhub does offer other types of RPM or indeed SPEED effects that can be used to bring engine immersion. Having spent the time to learn how this "effect" operates I do find it quite brilliant as a tool to bring the desired sensation for an RPM element.

With continued practice this is not that hard to achieve, okay its been time-consuming but getting nice variation in the feeling can be a skill we learn. Gradually working to understand better how/what frequencies can be used for the above scenarios or desired sensations for a particular event operation. I believe I am now at the point with this early groundwork done that its now much easier to progress in seeking to go to the next level.

I just spent over 20Hrs after several attempts in honing a new batch of layers for a Ferrari 488GT3 but it has to be one of the best engine effects I have ever felt and it developed to cover the full 200Hz bass range. This will be tested with some that are helping to confirm it works on the exciters as standalone units but also on all the Buttkicker models as well.

Assetto Corsa Competizione:
However as good as it feels, in comparing cars like a Ferrari 488GT3 to a Porsche GT3 in having spent all that time developing an engine effects arrangement that feels good on the Ferrari it does not fit in with the Porsche, even though each car is using fairly similar RPM ranges and are both V8 cars. They have very different characters and the effects feel somewhat out of place or disjointed with this other car.

Ferrari / Porsche / Audi​

So how am I attempting to tackle this......

New Approach - Tone Mapping:
I monitor the "Center Channel" audio output from the games audio and select within the sim to only output the "engine" sounds. Now I have the ability to monitor the full range of audio that car generates. As we are using bass, I set a limit to monitor only up to 200Hz.

So, what I can do is determine the average and peak frequencies that each car generates over its RPM range.
I can also then see what its output is at any given RPM and from this, we begin to see the key frequencies and harmonics that it uses. From this gathered data and understanding it is then possible to generate a layer that matches the general tone of the car and we can create effects for specific RPM to be more in line with the audible character of the car. I am not saying this makes the accurate or realistic feel of that car but what it does do is attempt to increase the immersion and match the "tone generated" effects we make fit more with that car, giving that car a more unique feel.

I want to test this method/approach with 3 cars to then determine feedback if it's worth continuing but one of the interesting things is how we then combine this with the multi-exciter and BK combo. With this, we can apply differently how some of those key aspects not only feel but how they are distributed to individual channels.

I am still progressing and seeking to develop this and that may also be a personal preference thing but it's such a huge jump up from default or basic effects and a standard type installation can achieve.

Those that have invested in the "concept" will not be disappointed when these effects are finished they will be shared.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That is an interesting priority.

I have a pretty convincing initial engine start and lumpy idle. After the engine rpm starts to climb, I let the engine fade away until redline. Most of the time I don't feel the engine and that matches my experience in real life. I'm not suggesting that it matches each car I'm racing with, since I've never experienced them in real life. I like the additional immersion queues from road bumps and rumble strips, and shift the bumps are nice, and I've added a bit of speed related vibration but only at my steering wheel / shift gear. The effect that I have focused the majority of my effort on has been wheel slip. That has been the most helpful to me when I'm trying to stay on the edge of adhesion. Feeling the front end or rear end of the car starting to slide has been very useful. They are clear and distinct. I have some of both going to the steering biased towards the front a bit.

However If I had something like the NLR Traction loss system, I think the seat of the pants feeling of sliding would be far better than just feeling vibrations.

 

[Mr Latte]

Engines are certainly one of the more complex challenges for effects but I'd be interested in feeling your own interpretations for effects and what you have used for wheel slip if you want to share or PM them. The question is what if you had the traction loss and the vibration complementing each other or indeed high quality tactile to suit a motion rig.

 

[jamman39]

Mr Latte thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it. My search for a plug and play solution led me to the Realteus ForceFeel. For $220 shipped to the US it looks like it will fit my budget and setup very well. I’m aware that a lot of their customers have had bad experiences with them though, especially with long wait times so I’ll update this post when (hopefully) it arrives and give my impressions

I couldn’t believe it, but it showed up yesterday. I’ve installed it and spent some time playing with the settings (I think it will take quite a bit of adjusting to get it just right). But I think I’ve seen enough to give some general thoughts: The ForceFeel is a really good budget option for somebody interested in tactile feedback.

The pros: it’s very inexpensive compared to other tactile solutions. It has 8 motors, which is more than I would’ve ended up with if I had gone the DIY route, and makes for a great experience. Plug and play with Simhub. Completely silent, won’t bother the dogs or sleeping baby.

The cons: the company seems really bad based on others experiences. It seems unfair that I got mine in a week, while their early adopters waited as long as 18 months. I also purchased their “Wheels” software but the activation code they sent me doesn’t work. Haven’t received a reply from the customer service team yet, wish I had saved the $20 since Simhub works so well with it. Not as comfortable to sit on as a bucket seat w/out a ForceFeel on it, it’s not uncomfortable just less comfortable.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I've ordered an industrial scale so I can measure the weight of my rig to see if combined with my weight is within NLR's weight limit.
Max Payload : 235Kg or 518lbs. I'm not sure that it is, so this may be a moot point. However Barry, for a short period, ran a heavier setup than that and said it seemed to work well. Not sure about long term reliability but Matt from NLR customer support had asked me "how much over" the limit I was which suggests to me that they "may" have conservative limits posted. It only uses 318Watts, so it won't tax my breakers.

The NLRv3 also has a wheel slip effect that is a quick side to side shaking. I need to play with that a bit and compare its effect with what I'm getting from the seat back transducer for rear traction loss. Personally I think that the transducer effect is convincing enough and the NLRv3 effect seems like it would put higher wear on the NLRv3 motors since I'm on the edge of traction a lot.

I could put 4 x 80x80 40 series lengths under the Traction Loss Plus with 6 x 40x80mm or 80x80 cross members and heavier duty 400lb per corner cantilevered casters attached sideways to the cross members to lift the entire rig and still be able to move it to the corner of my media room. It would be the same overall length that it is now, but would stick out 18 inches more sideways.

I'm on the fence. I know some people who are running the NLRv3 with the Traction Plus and are having great luck with that combination. The two pieces run off of the same software are appear to be very tightly integrated and easily set up. I don't think there are any other traction loss systems that are remotely comparable to what NLR currently has.

NLR has been out of inventory before the whole COVID-19 crisis and it may be months before they are available again.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ref VR3 Motion & Tactile

For a few weeks now, I have been helping a VR3 owner do a custom tactile installation on the forums.
Taking into account the joint ideas we came up with, I think it's going to be the best VR3 installation I have seen, err like ever.

The concern with it was how to achieve excellent stereo tactile and improved bass over a typical single Buttkicker installation with the additional weight larger BK and metal plates added. I don't want to go too much into it as the owner is to do a thread on it here as I requested but I'm very keen to not only see it but to then get his feedback and work with him on effects that can not only feel good but help to increase the immersion in tandem with the motion.

 

[Mr Latte]

I couldn’t believe it, but it showed up yesterday. I’ve installed it and spent some time playing with the settings (I think it will take quite a bit of adjusting to get it just right). But I think I’ve seen enough to give some general thoughts: The ForceFeel is a really good budget option for somebody interested in tactile feedback.

The pros: it’s very inexpensive compared to other tactile solutions. It has 8 motors, which is more than I would’ve ended up with if I had gone the DIY route, and makes for a great experience. Plug and play with Simhub. Completely silent, won’t bother the dogs or sleeping baby.

The cons: the company seems really bad based on others experiences. It seems unfair that I got mine in a week, while their early adopters waited as long as 18 months. I also purchased their “Wheels” software but the activation code they sent me doesn’t work. Haven’t received a reply from the customer service team yet, wish I had saved the $20 since Simhub works so well with it. Not as comfortable to sit on as a bucket seat w/out a ForceFeel on it, it’s not uncomfortable just less comfortable.

Yes it may be an excellent way to experience multizone tactile and with little hassle for $220.

However, I believe the approach I offer with the recommended "40W Thruster" / Dayton exciters (not motors) would offer a better frequency range and detail with effects. Some people will just want a simple plug and play which is understandable so I hope your entry into tactile is an enjoyable one.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Ref VR3 Motion & Tactile

For a few weeks now, I have been helping a VR3 owner do a custom tactile installation on the forums.
Taking into account the joint ideas we came up with, I think it's going to be the best VR3 installation I have seen, err like ever.

The concern with it was how to achieve excellent stereo tactile and improved bass over a typical single Buttkicker installation with the additional weight larger BK and metal plates added. I don't want to go too much into it as the owner is to do a thread on it here as I requested but I'm very keen to not only see it but to then get his feedback and work with him on effects that can not only feel good but help to increase the immersion in tandem with the motion.

I look forward to seeing that!

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

Now you cant achieve that with default effects or a single layer but I have found it quite awesome that very good engine sensations incorporating the above are possible with only 5-6 layers. Something like this used to take me 10 layers or more but progress always comes if we keep learning and experimenting.

My own preference is still to use the RPM (Response Filter) based effect although Simhub does offer other types of RPM or indeed SPEED effects that can be used to bring engine immersion. Having spent the time to learn how this "effect" operates I do find it quite brilliant as a tool to bring the desired sensation for an RPM element.

With continued practice this is not that hard to achieve, okay its been time-consuming but getting nice variation in the feeling can be a skill we learn. Gradually working to understand better how/what frequencies can be used for the above scenarios or desired sensations for a particular event operation. I believe I am now at the point with this early groundwork done that its now much easier to progress in seeking to go to the next level.

I just spent over 20Hrs after several attempts in honing a new batch of layers for a Ferrari 488GT3 but it has to be one of the best engine effects I have ever felt and it developed to cover the full 200Hz bass range. This will be tested with some that are helping to confirm it works on the exciters as standalone units but also on all the Buttkicker models as well.

Assetto Corsa Competizione:
However as good as it feels, in comparing cars like a Ferrari 488GT3 to a Porsche GT3 in having spent all that time developing an engine effects arrangement that feels good on the Ferrari it does not fit in with the Porsche, even though each car is using fairly similar RPM ranges and are both V8 cars. They have very different characters and the effects feel somewhat out of place or disjointed with this other car.

Ferrari / Porsche / Audi​

So how am I attempting to tackle this......

New Approach - Tone Mapping:
I monitor the "Center Channel" audio output from the games audio and select within the sim to only output the "engine" sounds. Now I have the ability to monitor the full range of audio that car generates. As we are using bass, I set a limit to monitor only up to 200Hz.

So, what I can do is determine the average and peak frequencies that each car generates over its RPM range.
I can also then see what its output is at any given RPM and from this, we begin to see the key frequencies and harmonics that it uses. From this gathered data and understanding it is then possible to generate a layer that matches the general tone of the car and we can create effects for specific RPM to be more in line with the audible character of the car. I am not saying this makes the accurate or realistic feel of that car but what it does do is attempt to increase the immersion and match the "tone generated" effects we make fit more with that car, giving that car a more unique feel.

I want to test this method/approach with 3 cars to then determine feedback if it's worth continuing but one of the interesting things is how we then combine this with the multi-exciter and BK combo. With this, we can apply differently how some of those key aspects not only feel but how they are distributed to individual channels.

I am still progressing and seeking to develop this and that may also be a personal preference thing but it's such a huge jump up from default or basic effects and a standard type installation can achieve.

Those that have invested in the "concept" will not be disappointed when these effects are finished they will be shared.

This is a really interesting approach and makes good sense. I've spent most of my tactile tuning efforts (which are quite limited) on getting the RPMs well suited to the AMG GT3 in iRacing. When trying the same settings on other cars they really do feel off and not well matched. I will be trying to replicate and tweak them over the coming weeks and months so they're well suited to several other vehicles.

You've mentioned about how you're pulling the engine audio from the sim. Are you doing this whilst in the same gear in each car and would it make a difference... do the graphs look similar (just a different time frame) if you go from 1k-8k revs in 1st gear or 6th gear?

I understand that SimHub doesn't give the option to place settings for specific gears anyway. Just thought it might be something to consider whilst tuning effects. If you wanted a longer graph to analyse, and hopefully a fair like-for-like comparison between cars, is it worth recording it with a standing start in 2nd gear?

Hopefully this is some food for thought if nothing else.

Having now installed ACC, I'll be testing some more effects once I've got the sim setup fully and seeing how they transfer between sims. Looking forward to seeing how these RPM settings pan out and suit particular cars.

 

[Mr Latte]

This is a really interesting approach and makes good sense. I've spent most of my tactile tuning efforts (which are quite limited) on getting the RPMs well suited to the AMG GT3 in iRacing. When trying the same settings on other cars they really do feel off and not well matched. I will be trying to replicate and tweak them over the coming weeks and months so they're well suited to several other vehicles.

You've mentioned about how you're pulling the engine audio from the sim. Are you doing this whilst in the same gear in each car and would it make a difference... do the graphs look similar (just a different time frame) if you go from 1k-8k revs in 1st gear or 6th gear?

I understand that SimHub doesn't give the option to place settings for specific gears anyway. Just thought it might be something to consider whilst tuning effects. If you wanted a longer graph to analyse, and hopefully a fair like-for-like comparison between cars, is it worth recording it with a standing start in 2nd gear?

Hopefully this is some food for thought if nothing else.

Having now installed ACC, I'll be testing some more effects once I've got the sim setup fully and seeing how they transfer between sims. Looking forward to seeing how these RPM settings pan out and suit particular cars.

Hello mate,
The experimentation talked about here regards me monitoring "the game audio" is done in realtime with additional hardware. So I look at a cars audio in detail to break it down to see patterns for peaks or harmonics that cars audio contains. If we see this, we can get an idea to then decide how to attempt to generate a tone/pattern in Simhub that might fit well with the RPM effects to match with the car.

Keep in mind audio is cycles per second, so I think sometimes what he hear from engine sounds if the felt sensation is very different can create in-balance or oddities with the timing/feeling as to what we hear. A good match tends to feel better.

SPEED / RPM / GEARS
We can rely not just on RPM to help define the cars felt sensation, as speed is not repetitive like RPM for each gear.
It is possible to create a profile for a specific car and use SPEED to help determine a response to match a specific car's gear changes.
From the testing, I know its possible yes but you then start going into lots of layers based on matching the SPEED response curve to the Mph/Kph for that SHIFT you want. So with this yes you could bring in sensations but it's not ideal if the driver is going slow or not maximizing the RPM range as then you get the timing of the SPEED response happening out of sync with the shift. With code this may be possible to only operate the SPEED layer if the desired gear is selected. Im not up on the code side of things but think that could be done yes.

Back to RPMs
So we need the speed effect to also fit in with the frequencies RPM generates. Sometimes this isn't so easy as somewhere with an RPM and SPEED combination you get a range of Hz that feel odd on the transducer (hard to explain) but this is one reason I found it better to place these as effects onto different transducers as it brings fewer issues and better results when we try to build more complexed RPM and SPEED effect layers.

This approach I am looking into, means no additional hardware for others, its created in the tones the effects generate, it's just me playing about with my audio hardware and trying to be creative.

From the audio, some cars at a glance look similar in the patterns of frequencies used, but they can have very different dB over those frequencies which changes things a lot to the sound or feel. In all fairness the audio engineer that created the games audio likely used similar elements for different cars, so some similarities may come from that also. Real cars engines are very scientific/complexed when we delve into how (engine orders) work or other factors NVH engineers train to understand.

So on a very basic level, with tone generation and what we can do with Simhub, this is one reason I use multiple layers in effects with specific frequencies. When the user alters a volume for a specific layers RPM operation, it increases/decreases the dB for that operation of that layer's frequencies and is a basic form of EQ or personalizing the effects to suit each user and people will change these as pleases them.

An example may be to bring more zing or more mid-range feel so that a user can alter these to help better match the feeling of the "response curve" for that RPM element. In some cases you get a conflict with Hz and other layers but this can be an issue with the transducer struggling to generate it all.


Game Audio:
If you take ACC it has rather complexed audio sounds for different cars, now we cant mimic those with tone generation. So using "game audio tactile" still has things it can bring to the immersion for those that want more character of cars. That needs its own thread and deeper exploration as mentioned/shown here at times. Also to make it work well needs methods to control/boost/modify the output for tactile. All that is quite a steep/learning curve and additional expense based on doing it right or via software or hardware options. My own build will offer this as an option and allow me to use it how/if I please.

Alternative Possibility
This is going off the main discussion but I present as a further option.
We have a Sim community that can make amazing audio file mods for titles. Yet people moan about how "game audio" is now deemed unimportant or no good, now that we have tone generation software options. I think each has its own benefits but it amazes me that we have not had people that make sound mods look into adding extra bass into the sound files for the specific effect that would benefit low bass capable transducers. In the future, I'd like to work with someone that has experience with sound file creation to try this approach. In simple terms, if someone can replace a games "audio file" for a "specific operation" then its very possible to modify such for better results with "game audio-tactile".

Individual Car Engines Simhub
I will be doing the 3 cars above as examples to test this idea/approach I have.
Do I think it replaces the need for "game audio-tactile" no, but it might make how Simhub performs with tone generation to bring better matching and felt sensations to different cars? It still won't be accurate in the sense of replicating the real thing but it will be a lot better than other tactile solutions. Its still a learning process, progress will be made and I have some early work/research/testing already done with this.

Its going to be interesting to see what the potential is and what others find they like in effects....
Moving onto other cars with much different RPM ranges is another factor, thats why at the moment ACC is a good option as most cars use similar RPM ranges.

 

[EsxPaul]

I've started from the beginning of this epic thread and still have about 30 pages to go. I'm still a complete know nothing but the information is slowly sinking in.

I'm just about at bursting point with a ton of questions to ask.

Chucking a few in in now as I'm drawing up my ever changing shopping list. The list has changed every time I've turned a page of this thread, as new information came to pass.

Question...

Would the HA8000 V2 be a sensible choice over the HA6000, considering they are the same price?

My current shopping list includes these:

NX 3000D (to power 2 larger central units, as yet undecided)
EPQ304 (to power 4 seat exciters)
HA8000 V2 (to tune the above and have a couple of spare channels)

Hopefully I've taken in enough that the above seem like reasonable choices.