Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[EsxPaul]

Tidy and elegant! The bulkhead cable install on the seat bracket is brilliant.

I am planning a similar install with four exciters and a Mini LFE beneath the seat with another Mini LFE under the pedal plate.

Could you please share which cable (gauge & brand--I especially like the multiple wire colors) you chose for the Douk-Neutrik Speakon 8 pole connectors

Thanks

I used Cordial CLS 825 from Thomann for the 4x exiters

 

[EsxPaul]

I believe I need the following cables for six distinct channels to to be outputted from the PC:

1) 3.5 jack to XLR - 300W amp L (front Mini LFE)
2) 3.5 jack to XLR - 300W amp R (rear Mini LFE)
3) 3.5 jack to RCA - Douk M4 1 (exciter 1)
4) 3.5 jack to RCA - Douk M4 2 (exciter 2)
5) 3.5 jack to RCA - Douk M4 2 (exciter 3)
6) 3.5 jack to RCA - Douk M4 2 (exciter 4)

You don't need as many cables as you have listed there. I'm running the same amount of shakers as you have planned (2 large shakers & 4 Exiters)

You could do:

1) 3.5 TRS jack to twin XLR - 300W amp L&R (front & rear Mini LFEs) Example
2) 3.5 TRS Jack to twin RCA - Douk M4 1&2 (Exiters 1&2) Example
3) 3.5 TRS Jack to twin RCA - Douk M4 3&4 (Exiters 3&4)

I don't know exactly which 300W amp you'll be using so double check for the correct connectors there and also the cable lengths you need for your installation.

I don't personally run all six of my shakers from the motherboards onboard sound card and did things slightly differently. I run my 2 LFEs from the motherboard sound card and use a separate internal souncard for the 4x Exiters. That way I can run 2 separate EQs to cap off and limit frequency ranges as a safety measure.

 

[EsxPaul]

On the amp output side, I am exploring connecting my two Buttkicker Mini LFEs to the amplifier: could I connect a male 2-pole Speak-on to the stub ends on each of the Minis and run a pair of speaker wires with female and male Speak-on ends to connect at the amp outputs?

You can certainly do that if you don't mind the extra expense of the connectors.

 

[EsxPaul]

To connect the four Dayton DAEX32EP-4 exciters to the individual cable leads, I can solder (but don't relish the task!) I am being swayed that quality crimped connections are also more than satisfactory and would ease replacement in the event of exciter failure. Does anyone have suggestions for spade or other connectors

I soldered mine for a more solid and reliable connection because I was pretty sure I wouldn't be moving them anytime soon. I wouldn't fancy my chances of desoldering/resoldering them too many times as you can feel plastic softening up around the connectors as you apply the heat. You have to tin both the connector and wire end beforehand and get them mated as quickly as possible. If you think you might want to relocate them as you go forward, stick with 2.8 mm spade terminals for ease of use.

 

[Ruttman98]

EsxPaul--thank you very much for the detailed reply and sound (pardon the pun!) advice!

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I soldered mine for a more solid and reliable connection because I was pretty sure I wouldn't be moving them anytime soon. I wouldn't fancy my chances of desoldering/resoldering them too many times as you can feel plastic softening up around the connectors as you apply the heat. You have to tin both the connector and wire end beforehand and get them mated as quickly as possible. If you think you might want to relocate them as you go forward, stick with 6.3mm spade terminals for ease of use.

The exciter terminals aren't 6.3mm, but rather they are 0.112" ((2.8mm) wide x 0.025" thick.

 

[Ruttman98]

Tom H -- I thought those connectors would be a little big on the tiny Dayton terminals!

For those looking for similar cables in the U.S., the first price I found for 8 conductor 14 AWG stranded tray cable is USD 2.86/ft (Show Me Cable in St. Louis, MO). Doing the currency conversion, this price works out to within two cents of Thomann's 2.5 mm speaker cable. In contrast, 16 AWG is only USD 1.86/ft which should be more than adequate for Mini LFEs.

I do not know if tray cable is equivalent to speaker cable? Any EE's, ITs, or audiophiles savvy?

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Tom H -- I thought those connectors would be a little big on the tiny Dayton terminals!

For those looking for similar cables in the U.S., the first price I found for 8 conductor 14 AWG stranded tray cable is USD 2.86/ft (Show Me Cable in St. Louis, MO). Doing the currency conversion, this price works out to within two cents of Thomann's 2.5 mm speaker cable. In contrast, 16 AWG is only USD 1.86/ft which should be more than adequate for Mini LFEs.

I do not know if tray cable is equivalent to speaker cable? Any EE's, ITs, or audiophiles savvy?

30 year EE, here. Tray cable is designed for use in cable trays that are typical in industrial and laboratory installations. Its really more about the mechanical characteristics rather than the electrical/signal carrying characteristics. Tray cable is typically engineered for flexibility, and robustness to enable it to be pulled easily through cable trays without damage to the internal conductors.

"Speaker cable" typically has a different wire core structure (often with varying strand diameters) for carrying the wide frequency range of audio signals. This is really more relevant to the higher frequency ranges (where these freqs are conducted more on the surface of the copper rather than through the entire volume), rather than the lowest. But, even still that's a lot of "angles dancing on the head of a pin". It is not something I would concern myself with in the sub-200Hz range.

16AWG is certainly sufficient for a mini-LFE (~8 Amps at 250 Peak watts), but it would be pushing the limit for a Full-LFE and especially a 2 Ohm Concert. But, something to consider is the pain level if you decide to change out a mini-LFE later for a full sized LFE. 14 AWG would be more universal without much concern for the transducer choice.

 

[EsxPaul]

@Tom_Hampton good spot and thanks for pointing out my error!

Apologies @Ruttman98 I added an incorrect link from my parts list and Tom is absolutely correct in saying they should be 2.8mm spade terminals. I'll go back and edit my post so it doesn't mislead others

 

[Tom_Hampton]

For those looking for similar cables in the U.S., the first price I found for 8 conductor 14 AWG stranded tray cable is USD 2.86/ft (Show Me Cable in St. Louis, MO). Doing the currency conversion, this price works out to within two cents of Thomann's 2.5 mm speaker cable. In contrast, 16 AWG is only USD 1.86/ft which should be more than adequate for Mini LFEs.

I also found this, for $1.68 / ft:

14/8 SOOW Portable Cord 600V UL/CSA

SOOW Flexible Portable Cord. Cut to length - sold by the Foot.

www.wireandcableyourway.com

 

[Ruttman98]

I also found this, for $1.68 / ft:

14/8 SOOW Portable Cord 600V UL/CSA

SOOW Flexible Portable Cord. Cut to length - sold by the Foot.

www.wireandcableyourway.com

Great shopping, Tom.

Thank you for your expertise!

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

This is really more relevant to the higher frequency ranges (where these freqs are conducted more on the surface of the copper rather than through the entire volume

No, that's not how it works.

Capacitance, inductance and resistance of the cable are all that matters. For this purpose all you need is 2mm stranded copper and even that is probably overkill - 1.5mm would almost certainly not result in any noticeable difference. Don't over think it.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

No, that's not how it works.

Capacitance, inductance and resistance of the cable are all that matters. For this purpose all you need is 2mm stranded copper and even that is probably overkill - 1.5mm would almost certainly not result in any noticeable difference. Don't over think it.

The skin effect in copper wire is significant enough to matter above 10 KHz, and can result in differential harmonic distortion in full bandwidth audio.

However, as I noted in my original post....it is NOT relevant to signals in the sub-200hz range. Also, neither really are transmission line impedance effects associated with line capacitance and inductance for a cable that is a only few feet long, again for signal frequencies below 200 Hz. And it certainly doesn't matter for the application at hand...as these are NOT precision audio devices with low-phase-shift to begin with.

 

[Mr Latte]

My own cable of choice
I opted for 8 core 14AWG but I am getting mine made to spec by designacable.com
Also using higher quality tour-grade STX metal connections on the 8 pole end. These are substantial and very satisfying to hold and connect compared to the plastic version.

So yeah I opted to go with having the 8 pole cable obviously to reduce the number of cables covering 4 channels.
Others have done this too as recommend long ago.

Although here is where I differ from what most will do. I wanted a simple but professional way to be able to disconnect easily all the tactile cabling to the cockpit from the amps but then also an easy way to be able to disconnect any individual transducers cable if I ever needed too.

For each (4) outputs via the 8 pole cable I have gone with adding a Stagg SpeakON distributor. Several of these will be installed on the cockpit. This lets me easily attach/disconnect each 8 pole cable in a single swoop from the distributor, I then just connect 4 tactile units via 2 pole SpeakOn connections and these again can just easily be disconnected if needed.

I got 4 of the distributors cheap last year but they are quite costly. Just not sure if I will want to buy more to use also on the exciters, that seems excessive but will have enough for the 16 primary transducers being installed.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

For each (4) outputs via the 8 pole cable I have gone with adding a Stagg SpeakON distributor. Several of these will be installed on the cockpit. This lets me easily attach/disconnect each 8 pole cable in a single swoop from the distributor, I then just connect 4 tactile units via 2 pole SpeakOn connections and these again can just easily be disconnected if needed.

I got 4 of the distributors cheap last year but they are quite costly. Just not sure if I will want to buy more to use also on the exciters, that seems excessive but will have enough for the 16 primary transducers being installed.

I looked at that a couple months ago, and had a similar thought. But, given that all transducers have a method for removable attachment I couldn't convince myself that having individually removable speakon cables (per transducer) served a purpose. I definitely want to be able to remove my seat with transducers attached. So, there will be disconnects near the seat in groups of 4, but I'm going to keep those as 8pole SpeakOn bulkheads....and run up to the front of the rig for primary umbilical connections.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Thank you for posting your experience with a formed aluminum seat. I have alternated between Kirkey and Ultrashield options and fiberglass seats, with the former holding favor because of ease of removing covers. Definitely a lot to consider and I will be following with interest!

Ok. So, my seat brackets arrived today, and I was able to move the Exciters over and give it a whirl. The difference is NIGHT and DAY with the composite seat:

• As expected it takes considerably more power (~30% more) to "overdrive" the exciters and cause them to impact the seat.
• The seat material resonant frequency is much closer to the sub-200hz range of tactile so it responds much better to the stimulus from the Exciters.
• The composite material is less mechanically conductive, so the energy doesn't travel out as far from the exciter. So, you get better separation between each of the exciters.

Overall I felt that the transducers "mixed" much better and felt more integrated and immersive compared with the aluminum seat. I could feel the beat frequencies of the slight freq differences between each transducer. I was able to learn to use those beat frequencies to better sense what the car was doing and maintain more consistent laps.

There are some differences between the two installations that confound the above "findings". Its not directly an apples-apples comparison.

• The composite seat fits me MUCH better. Basically it fits like a glove.
• The seat is smaller, and so I have clearance to mount the exciters in better locations than I was able to with the Alu seat.

I was testing with just simple single-layer effects for G-force, and wheel slip, and Road rumble.

4 exciters (DAEX32P-4) located on each hip, and 2 inches off center from mid-spine.

In summary, I will NOT be switching back to the Alu seat. Which is just fine, because that's supposed to be the passenger seat for my other toy....

 

[Ruttman98]

Ok. So, my seat brackets arrived today, and I was able to move the Exciters over and give it a whirl. The difference is NIGHT and DAY with the composite seat:

• As expected it takes considerably more power (~30% more) to "overdrive" the exciters and cause them to impact the seat.
• The seat material resonant frequency is much closer to the sub-200hz range of tactile so it responds much better to the stimulus from the Exciters.
• The composite material is less mechanically conductive, so the energy doesn't travel out as far from the exciter. So, you get better separation between each of the exciters.

Overall I felt that the transducers "mixed" much better and felt more integrated and immersive compared with the aluminum seat. I could feel the beat frequencies of the slight freq differences between each transducer. I was able to learn to use those beat frequencies to better sense what the car was doing and maintain more consistent laps.

There are some differences between the two installations that confound the above "findings". Its not directly an apples-apples comparison.

• The composite seat fits me MUCH better. Basically it fits like a glove.
• The seat is smaller, and so I have clearance to mount the exciters in better locations than I was able to with the Alu seat.

I was testing with just simple single-layer effects for G-force, and wheel slip, and Road rumble.

4 exciters (DAEX32P-4) located on each hip, and 2 inches off center from mid-spine.

In summary, I will NOT be switching back to the Alu seat. Which is just fine, because that's supposed to be the passenger seat for my other toy....

View attachment 419362

Thank you for the research and report! I will cease my searches for a formed aluminum seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

I looked at that a couple months ago, and had a similar thought. But, given that all transducers have a method for removable attachment I couldn't convince myself that having individually removable speakon cables (per transducer) served a purpose. I definitely want to be able to remove my seat with transducers attached. So, there will be disconnects near the seat in groups of 4, but I'm going to keep those as 8pole SpeakOn bulkheads....and run up to the front of the rig for primary umbilical connections.

Some people may create their own SpeakON panel and have it installed on a rig. Yet doing that you have to secure either the cables from the amps or the cables from the units themselves. So giving one fixed end that is not easily removed.

The other option is to use multiple SpeakON couplers.

Additionally, units like the TST models BK Gamer and BK Mini all come with their own attached cables so you cant just easily disconnect the cable end at the terminals of the transducer.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Yes, I too have the amp ordered as well and also awaiting stock of the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini
I think this will be a great combination as it then gives someone an affordable compact 4way amplifier with 4way DSP controls at a great price.

I noticed that you are donating your t.racks along with a bunch of other equipment in the Classifieds. (A very generous gesture, by the way). I didn't ever find any comments from you (or anyone else) on the utility/effectiveness of the t.racks unit for managing the larger tactile units.

My own design constraint is one of space, and storage when not in use. So, I'm trying to keep the number of LRUs to a minimum. So, I was considering a NX4-6000 + t.racks as being a slightly more compact solution than (2x) NX3000D.

 

[Mr Latte]

I noticed that you are donating your t.racks along with a bunch of other equipment in the Classifieds. (A very generous gesture, by the way). I didn't ever find any comments from you (or anyone else) on the utility/effectiveness of the t.racks unit for managing the larger tactile units.

My own design constraint is one of space, and storage when not in use. So, I'm trying to keep the number of LRUs to a minimum. So, I was considering a NX4-6000 + t.racks as being a slightly more compact solution than (2x) NX3000D.

You can freely download the software and use demo mode.
It's much the same as many others. Visually is okay, perhaps not my favorite and it may be a bit daunting to a new user not familiar with Crossover controls and filters or PEQ settings. They all pretty much operate in similar ways once you get used to them.

I bought it originally to use with the M4 and for the exciters but have opted to upgrade my audio interface and never used them. My friend got sorted with a refund and I had already gifted him in kind by Pay Pal so he was happy. I still have those items available to maybe now sell.