Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[blekenbleu]

windows in quadrascopic mode

That did not work for me; 5.1 (or 7.1, if applicable) is wanted.
Quadraphonic may be intended for deriving surround effect from differences between stereo channels,
not feeding 1:1 channels directly.

 

[Mr Latte]

Soundcard Info

• 4 Channels: all effects will be spread to the 4 corners of the rig using 4 channels
  • Note: Depending on the game and provided telemetry some effects may not be located perfectly on each corner, this is a limitation of the games.
• Custom channel map: allows you to configure effect per effect, location per location which channel must be used
  • Ideal for any other setup, combinations are virtually infinite

 

[anton_Chez]

Use the last option, the custom channels. Then you can send the signals wherever you want. You have total control that way, and can also use the individual effect gain if you so choose. It's a little hit and miss when using the other options that give you 4 corners or front and rear, etc.

 

[Mr Latte]

Use the last option, the custom channels. Then you can send the signals wherever you want. You have total control that way, and can also use the individual effect gain if you so choose. It's a little hit and miss when using the other options that give you 4 corners or front and rear, etc.

Everything still going okay with the amp now you got it sorted?
Please do a comparison of the BK Mini Lfe to the Earthquake Mini with the frequency tests from within a sim that I shared in the BK thread.

Keen to find out how they compare on your rig from10-200Hz

 

[anton_Chez]

Hey mate yeah it seems I have wrapped my head around how the thing works. Different to just using the SMSL amps or any car amps I've used in the past. Not super complicated but enough to confuse a new user. |

I've literally had no setup time with it past just getting it to work. I've been running only a race here and there since we're on holiday mode as far as leagues go and I've had my hands full with other things. So I've just been running the single EQ unit with an existing profile solely for engine vibes and that's pretty much it. I hope to get some more time with it this weekend to go through the larger unit effect profiles and start piecing together a new profile for the new setup.

In short though, the EQ unit has a LOT more lower end range than the Mini LFE's are capable of. I still get a little piston knocking on the EQ if I try to push too hard, but I'd expect that even if you're at an optimum hz range for the unit. Too much gain is too much gain, after all.

 

[Mr Latte]

You'd have to share/show what you tried and highlight what Hz piston pang was happening or at what +db being applied.

What is the soundcard and amps knobs set at?

A volume like on a normal amp applies +/-db gain to all frequencies over the dynamic range.

These are not normal amps. You now determine what +/-db gain is applied to specific frequencies.
It means you can achieve the peak output of dB (at different frequencies) to determine what boost/cut is needed in accordance with the transducer's own specs/limitations.

Piston pang is easily removed by setting a general crossover curve but then using the PEQ to attenuate the Hz causing the pang. This means you still get the boost to other frequencies and the transducer being used at its optimal performance.

 

[anton_Chez]

I'd have to do some proper setup and documentation to get all that right, as I said at the moment I've only done very basic usage once my mind was at ease that the amp was actually functioning correctly.

 

[anton_Chez]

Piston pang is easily removed by setting a general crossover curve but then using the PEQ to attenuate the Hz causing the pang. This means you still get the boost to other frequencies and the transducer being used at its optimal performance.

I'll definitely keep this in mind. Is there a guide on using the DSP function even if I only intend on using Simhub for the effects? As in, not game audio? Since I have the amp and the ability to use certain filters I may as well try them out. I guess it's been written before, just need a point in the right direction. I've got the other threads to catch up on too so I might come across it myself in my travels.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'll definitely keep this in mind. Is there a guide on using the DSP function even if I only intend on using Simhub for the effects? As in, not game audio? Since I have the amp and the ability to use certain filters I may as well try them out. I guess it's been written before, just need a point in the right direction. I've got the other threads to catch up on too so I might come across it myself in my travels.

The forums here have covered it plenty but you get very few people actually commenting on what settings they used with the tactile they are using. I think most people on these forums ignore or are not fully aware how to use the DSP controls. You then have others that keep saying its not needed or useful, so imho perhaps they don't know what they are talking about.

That's not to say I have all the answers but I have done my fair bit of testing and base what I've discovered as fundamental benefits for tactile. When an attempt is made at getting people to offer feedback and sharing how they tuned their own tactile, you get very few people offering to take part or contribute. One such example you seen before.

Testing Methods
While such can be used for a general reference. I think it's better to not use online tone generators to determine how different Hz may feel when the application the user will be using is tone generation via Simhub. While we have done this in the past. We may as well attempt to tune the transducers via the source it is going to be utilized with, it makes more sense.

How Simhub generates tones for effects it uses may vary to how online or other tone generators operate.
So the user might as well use that to tune what levels they first need to balance how all the Hz their own transducers operate with.

The other factor is a user may find they get reverberations in the rigs materials with certain frequencies at higher gain settings. They get an annoying tingle sensation with certain Hz being too strong. All these factors ARE controllable if a user has good DSP controls and learns how amplitude works in conjunction with different transducers having their own characteristic outputs. With DSP you get to alter that output to suit both the preferences of the user, their rig installation, and to improve the operation of the unit.

Now to those that are against the idea of DSP, can they explain how these factors are not useful?

This is why I am against modding tactile or adding weights etc as with that the user has no control over how specific frequencies are controlled. Yet if some want to do that, then it is their own choice. It's not a personal attack on those who choose to do that or to add excessive/extended leverage but I dont see it as the best route to take in controlling what the tactile outputs.

Once a person determines what frequencies their own tactile operates best from and too, espically if using more directly installed transducers to seat and pedals regions then you also have much less variation between peoples rigs using the same hardware. So it IS possible to determine what are quite ideal settings for specific transducers. In doing this then any effects shared between people will fit quite well. Private tests in the past year with some people confirmed this. The user can then just adjust gain levels in SImhub for effects to their liking.

Here is an example of trying to help someone new to tactile with what we are talking about.

 

[FireWithin]

Depends if you meant to monitor channel activity as the HA6000 does that well, or to monitor frequencies?
Simhub software itself shows primitive but live responses for effects but not in a frequency/dB based manner

I won't go into it again as it will not appeal to most readers and various times it was covered in this thread....

You can monitor 1-2 channels at a time rather cheaply @(£50-£100) with low latency using a stereo audio interface.
To be able to monitor 4-8 or more channels, then it starts getting expensive needing dedicated hardware and pro audio software. Next, you then need a DAW or monitoring-based software plugins that connect with the hardware.
Some of these can be free or cheap but the best aint.

I've spent 1-2 years on/off gradually learning how to better apply this and with some creative ideas regards how to install or use different transducers to go beyond the common tactile approach. The new hardware I purchased will be one of the components that will let me now go further.

In reference to monitoring frequencies, this might be worth reading and see the videos that were shared.

Ok great!

One of my problem now is just to have Shakeit working correctly.
- Channel individual effects on - off and volume are not working for me.
I have open a ticket with Simhub support but not solved yet . . so for now all my effects are going to all 3 shakers

Any idea?

 

[RCHeliguy]

I was playing with my SimHub settings in Dirt Rally and finally spit all my settings for that sim.

@Mr Latte I am listening and have I started dropping to lower frequencies on my Concert. It took my Concert down to 16Hz for some effects and it works very well. I'll keep playing with it. Also changed all effects to Front/Rear. Still working on things.

I haven't tried out the effect you gave me yet. Today I had just finished mapping all the controls on my uber button box and was enjoying that as well.

My NLRv3 got a new software and firmware update today. They improved the latency in a noticeable way that is working well for some effects that don't really need tactile support anymore.

 

[Mr Latte]

I was playing with my SimHub settings in Dirt Rally and finally spit all my settings for that sim.

@Mr Latte I am listening and have I started dropping to lower frequencies on my Concert. It took my Concert down to 16Hz for some effects and it works very well. I'll keep playing with it. Also changed all effects to Front/Rear. Still working on things.

I haven't tried out the effect you gave me yet. Today I had just finished mapping all the controls on my uber button box and was enjoying that as well.

My NLRv3 got a new software and firmware update today. They improved the latency in a noticeable way that is working well for some effects that don't really need tactile support anymore.

Without even monitoring your own profile, looking at the settings you had.
It was clear you were swayed to using Hz that the Aura units produce with more shall we say gusto. This is a common factor but I see a guy that has a big BK that was getting greatly underused regards its low Hz capabilities.

I suspect you are not the only one doing that neither but sometimes more advanced feeling effects need more than single layers and lower Hz having more energy as showed how that couch moved under 10Hz. Its not just volume but the bandwidth lower frequencies have. When we then crank those frequencies but doing so not affecting others then we start to achieve much more variation in effects feel and energy. So having different layers with different Hz (like the gear test) lets a user tweak more the individual layer volumes to get a feel they prefer.

A single layer effect will have a very narrow peak, for example, your 28Hz shift predominately has a peak between @20Hz-50Hz. Yet the multilayer effect I shared has a broader peak output with more dynamic range upto about 100Hz.

The file I shared has several test effects its not just gear. What I want is to get your perspective on how some of those feel even though you do not have the DSP so you will still be losing out in some of the potential lowest Hz energy. See how you get on with them, they are not final effects but mere tests to see what we can achieve better usage of the lowest frequencies.

Some other current threads with people buying into the large BK I will be helping them configure the DSP but I will be curious on their own views, when we configure the DSP to then compare effects with and without it. I don't want people to have to rely on my own views but have others as well. Yet getting others to participate seems to be the problem.


@FireWithin
Xonar DX soundcard? That should work fine.

Soundcard Properties
Are your settings like this?




Simhub Output Mixer
On the left, you have the effect listed and in some cases "effect spatialization"
Across the top, you have the soundcards outputs. Eg: Channels1-8 (7.1 card)


You activate an effect in whatever channel output you want it to operate on.

Effects that use for example "Corners" then it makes sense to only activate the channel that represents each suspension/wheel. As seen above with Front Left / Front Right / Rear Left / Rear Right

Personally, I tend not to use the per/effect/per channel volumes.
I opt to do a different layer for a particular unit if I want it to use the same effect. This then lets you configure it more to suit. Rather than the same settings but only a variation of gain being applied.

Another nice feature is the ability to use custom names for the effects description.
So you can easily identify an effect that may be the same but one layer created with its own settings for a BK and another created with different settings going to the Exciters.


Make it easier to determine what transducer unit or role an effect layer is for.

Post updated:

 

[FireWithin]

Without even monitoring your own profile, looking at the settings you had.
It was clear you were swayed to using Hz that the Aura units produce with more shall we say gusto. This is a common factor but I see a guy that has a big BK that was getting greatly underused regards its low Hz capabilities.

I suspect you are not the only one doing that neither but sometimes more advanced feeling effects need more than single layers and lower Hz having more energy as showed how that couch moved under 10Hz. Its not just volume but the bandwidth lower frequencies have. When we then crank those frequencies but doing so not affecting others then we start to achieve much more variation in effects feel and energy. So having different layers with different Hz (like the gear test) lets a user tweak more the individual layer volumes to get a feel they prefer.

A single layer effect will have a very narrow peak, for example, your 28Hz shift predominately has a peak between @20Hz-50Hz. Yet the multilayer effect I shared has a broader peak output with more dynamic range upto about 100Hz.

The file I shared has several test effects its not just gear. What I want is to get your perspective on how some of those feel even though you do not have the DSP so you will still be losing out in some of the potential lowest Hz energy. See how you get on with them, they are not final effects but mere tests to see what we can achieve better usage of the lowest frequencies.

Some other current threads with people buying into the large BK I will be helping them configure the DSP but I will be curious on their own views, when we configure the DSP to then compare effects with and without it. I don't want people to have to rely on my own views but have others as well. Yet getting others to participate seems to be the problem.


@FireWithin
What soundcard are you using?

Soundcard Properties
Are your settings like this?




Simhub Output Mixer
On the left, you have the effect listed and in some cases "effect spatialization"
Across the top, you have the soundcards outputs. Eg: Channels1-8 (7.1 card)


You activate an effect in whatever channel output you want it to operate on.

Effects that use for example "Corners" then it makes sense to only activate the channel that represents each suspension/wheel. As seen above with Front Left / Front Right / Rear Left / Rear Right

Personally, I tend not to use the per/effect/per channel volumes.
I opt to do a different layer for a particular unit if I want it to use the same effect. This then lets you configure it more to suit. Rather than the same settings but only a variation of gain being applied.

Another nice feature is the ability to use custom names for the effects description.
So you can easily identify an effect that may be the same but one layer created with its own settings for a BK and another created with different settings going to the Exciters.


Make it easier to determine what transducer unit or role an effect layer is for.

Post updated:

Looks like this:

 

[Mr Latte]

So clearly you are sending every effect to channels 1 2 3 4 thats why you feel them on all 4
Only turn "ON" the channels you want the effect to operate. If set to "OFF" then the effect wont output to any channels with "OFF" being set.


You are also reducing CHANNEL GAIN on 1 & 3 which applies to all effects
On top of that you then are further reducing EFFECT GAIN on Channel 3 for several effects.


Is that intentional?

 

[FireWithin]

So clearly you are sending every effect to channels 1 2 3 4 thats why you feel them on all 4
Only turn "ON" the channels you want the effect to operate. If set to "OFF" then the effect wont output to any channels with "OFF" being set.


You are also reducing CHANNEL GAIN on 1 & 3 which applies to all effects
On top of that you then are further reducing EFFECT GAIN on Channel 3 for several effects.


Is that intentional?

I use the Xonar DX for the game audio.

For now channel 4 has nothing plug to it.
Channel gain works at least.
Like I said effect gain does not work for me, it does nothing. and turning off has no effect. I have tried them all off and it still fire.
Im confused, I mean is it a bug with this sound card? Yes on the picture I had everything at ON.

Cheers!

 

[Mr Latte]

So what soundcard are you using for Simhub?
It states only 4 channels available

You need to check drivers and that Windows has the card configured as 5.1 (if its a 5.1 card)
If that fails swap your cards as to which is audio vs Simhub?

 

[blekenbleu]

I´m very interested in your findings, this dayton thruster would fit well behind my brake pedal.

The Thruster finally arrived, no thanks to USPS for way slow delivery..
Having read about electrical connection fatigue issues, hot glue was globbed on after soldering:

My first impression is more sensitivity than Dayton TT25-16 pucks, as used in SRS ShakeSeat,
but much depends on mass loading. It should be able to rattle brake pedals,
but may need mass added to its backside, instead of piezo sensor temporarily hot-glued there,
which needs wiring to a mic cable for some initial investigations before brake pedal attachment.
Pressure-sensitive adhesive disk is about 45mm diameter.

 

[Mr Latte]

Im Still Puzzled!

So how is the piezo going to accurately enable monitoring of low frequencies, what frequency range does it support?
Why would you be trying to do this as the operational audible sound will also be picked up?
What's the point of trying to deduce the frequencies the unit is generating, when we can know by monitoring the soundcard via typical methods?

Info

Puck Vs Exciter
Dayton Pucks are only 15W RMS / 30W peak (SRS claim 25W)
The Thruster exciter is 40W RMS

Puck is limited to 80Hz
The thruster will produce felt vibration of 3rd and possibly 4th tier harmonics

 

[blekenbleu]

What's the point of trying to deduce the frequencies the unit is generating,
when we can know by monitoring the soundcard via typical methods?

Assuming haptics match amplifier inputs supposes linearity and fidelity in pucks/exciters/shakers
that I question and frequency response linearity in driven structures which I seriously doubt.

Puck is limited to 80Hz

Puck is rated 20 to 80Hz, but is far from that limited;
(FM radio) voices piped thru them are surprisingly intelligible.
I would have to at least temporarily break my ShakeSeat to make valid Thruster comparisons..

 

[Mr Latte]

Assuming haptics match amplifier inputs supposes linearity and fidelity in pucks/exciters/shakers
that I question and frequency response linearity in driven structures which I seriously doubt.

Puck is rated 20 to 80Hz, but is far from that limited;
(FM radio) voices piped thru them are surprisingly intelligible.
I would have to at least temporarily break my ShakeSeat to make valid Thruster comparisons..

Ahhh seriously, try again in describing in more layman's terms, purpose, and what it would achieve please.
I am intrigued but just don't quite get it. Also, question if the piezo is going to be offering scientific/accurate or reliable data?

80Hz yes, I said "limited" instead of rated....
Listed specs are not always accurate but the exciters clearly go far beyond the Puck for harmonic detailing.
Maybe, you will come back and tell us what is the usable limit in Hz for vibrations that you feel from the Puck?