Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Novopaine]

I just put a very basic setup on my P1-X (have a thread "first foray into tactile feedback").

I have very little experience, but one thing I learned for certain, mounting something directly on the the side of that rig will not transfer well to your seat. I had to put something between my seat rails and the main part of the frame to keep the feedback from being lost throughout the rig.

This was with two transducers, not a Buttkicker.

I'm guessing you mean one on each side bolted to the outer frame. When they are mounted in opposing directions, the sine waves (or whatever the waveform is) will cancel each other out and it will seem like they aren't even running. To compensate you have to reverse the polarity of one of the shakers. This will bring the phase back into alignment. This was actually my first test and it definitely worked, but going through all that metal seemed to add an unacceptable delay to the seat. For me the delay was a deal breaker.

I later tried putting both on the rear frame (in phase this time), and it was much better. My latest attempt is under the seat rails similar to what you did. The experimentation continues.

 

[metalnwood]

While allowing direct control of frequency, strength of vibrations will be determined by effective rotating mass, mass to which it is attached, and attachment stiffness (spring constant) which determine resonances. In other words, unlike bass shakers and exciters, amplitude and frequency cannot be independently controlled.

If I have my offset weight and it can turn at zero -> infinite speed, the stiffness is infinite then I think you can do a lot, you could have different frequencies at different amplitudes but it wouldnt follow a sine form but wouldnt matter if the feeling was the same.

Now a servo can't do that but I still wonder how it could perform.

 

[blekenbleu]

"exciters", does that mean

An exciter differs from a bass shaker in that exciters' electromagnet coil directly attach to structures to be excited. A bass shaker coil moves some internal mass, while exciter vibration derives from reaction to moving its permanent magnet structure. For the same small total weight, an exciter is more efficient, but for stronger and lower frequency vibrations, requiring larger masses and controlled damping, bass shakers are more economically implemented.

 

[mgh24]

I'm guessing you mean one on each side bolted to the outer frame. When they are mounted in opposing directions, the sine waves (or whatever the waveform is) will cancel each other out and it will seem like they aren't even running. To compensate you have to reverse the polarity of one of the shakers. This will bring the phase back into alignment. This was actually my first test and it definitely worked, but going through all that metal seemed to add an unacceptable delay to the seat. For me the delay was a deal breaker.

I later tried putting both on the rear frame (in phase this time), and it was much better. My latest attempt is under the seat rails similar to what you did. The experimentation continues.

I did have them on the outer frame, so they were indeed pointing towards each other.

 

[anton_Chez]

I'm confused (easily done). I like the idea of fewer and stronger for simplicities sake. You are changing to 1 x BK CT, 1 X TST 239, but what are you changing from?

When writing of "exciters", does that mean a small transducer like the PUI audio ASX11504? I am using two of those mounted on a board below my seat, not to my seat. Still trying to understand terminology and all the different combinations of transducers.

Thanks! And would love to hear back on results when you make the change.

Edit - the BK-CT needs 400 Watts! I better learn quite a bit more about amplification before I even start thinking about that

That's OK, it's a very confusing topic to get into. So first, a tiny bit of background. I personally use 2 x BK Mini LFE (small units in the butt kicker range) and a single Earthquake MQB-1 (small unit in the EQ lineup). I previously had NO Earthquake unit, but 6 x 40W exciters (these are tiny compared to my other "small" units, they stick onto the seat and can fit in the palm of your hand. Think of them as "pucks", you may have heard that term used before) along with the 2 x BK Mini LFE's. Prior to ALL of that, I had 4 x Aura bass shakers, smallish units in 4 corners of the chassis (2 under seat 2 under pedals). That's my tactile history to compare to.

Now, my advice to anyone that can afford around $1000 AUD of tactile (and ALREADY, that number seems INSANELY HIGH for the vast majority of users) is to get a SINGLE Butt Kicker LFE or Concert combined with an NX1000D or NX3000D amplifier. BK unit is roughly $500 AUD and the 1000 amp is roughly $500, with the 3000 having more power at around $590. Sorry for the AUD pricing but it's what I'm used to paying in Australia. It should roughly convert to USD. With this setup you already have amazing range all the way down to the lowest bass, a massive amount of power headroom to assign multiple effects to the single unit without much risk of overloading it and you have much less hassle mounting and wiring everything up.

So my build will hopefully settle on 1 BK CT and 1 TST Silver running from the one amp. Simple, huge power, great hz range and clean to mount. That kit there is around $1300 AUD. If you intend to do it once and decently, that's where I'd start.

Mind you, at the time of getting into tactile there is NO WAY I'd have entertained that purchase. So it's very understandable, especially when users are unsure exactly how much of a difference to their sim experience spending that much money will make, that basically no one will actually start at that level.

 

[mgh24]

That's OK, it's a very confusing topic to get into. So first, a tiny bit of background. I personally use 2 x BK Mini LFE (small units in the butt kicker range) and a single Earthquake MQB-1 (small unit in the EQ lineup). I previously had NO Earthquake unit, but 6 x 40W exciters (these are tiny compared to my other "small" units, they stick onto the seat and can fit in the palm of your hand. Think of them as "pucks", you may have heard that term used before) along with the 2 x BK Mini LFE's. Prior to ALL of that, I had 4 x Aura bass shakers, smallish units in 4 corners of the chassis (2 under seat 2 under pedals). That's my tactile history to compare to.

Now, my advice to anyone that can afford around $1000 AUD of tactile (and ALREADY, that number seems INSANELY HIGH for the vast majority of users) is to get a SINGLE Butt Kicker LFE or Concert combined with an NX1000D or NX3000D amplifier. BK unit is roughly $500 AUD and the 1000 amp is roughly $500, with the 3000 having more power at around $590. Sorry for the AUD pricing but it's what I'm used to paying in Australia. It should roughly convert to USD. With this setup you already have amazing range all the way down to the lowest bass, a massive amount of power headroom to assign multiple effects to the single unit without much risk of overloading it and you have much less hassle mounting and wiring everything up.

So my build will hopefully settle on 1 BK CT and 1 TST Silver running from the one amp. Simple, huge power, great hz range and clean to mount. That kit there is around $1300 AUD. If you intend to do it once and decently, that's where I'd start.

Mind you, at the time of getting into tactile there is NO WAY I'd have entertained that purchase. So it's very understandable, especially when users are unsure exactly how much of a difference to their sim experience spending that much money will make, that basically no one will actually start at that level.

If using a single strong shaker, I'm guessing you would mount it under the seat?

Where are you planning on locating the BK CT and the TST when you get them?

Thanks for the reply!

 

[anton_Chez]

Just about to head to bed, way too late here. But I was initially thinking the CT would be behind the seat, upright mounted to a timber board that is bolted down to the main rails of the chassis. The TST I am anticipating being able to fit under the seat as it's a smaller unit with a much more suited profile for the space. I'll most likely mount it to a cross member spanning the main rails, or, if possible, perhaps directly to the seat provided the mounting hardware they may/may not provide is sufficient.

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

I've decided to start sourcing materials to make some dampening sandwiches under my pedal plate. Spring size was taking into consideration the ID of the rubber feet i ordered:

Reliable Hardware Company RH-1606-8-A Guitar Amplifier Cabinet : Amazon.com.au: Musical Instruments

Reliable Hardware Company RH-1606-8-A Guitar Amplifier Cabinet : Amazon.com.au: Musical Instruments

www.amazon.com.au

So the Spring fits in perfectly, and i bought the strongest one i could find on ebay for the size thinking that i don't want to introduce flex under my feet. Mr Latte what were your findings experimenting with different springs? Are there any improvements I could make to this?

 

[metalnwood]

They are going to be quite small springs as the feet look to be very small.

There seem to be some tradeoffs doing this (from what little I know). Having seen the ones that Mr Latte was using, they should be good but probably not with smaller transducers. You have to tune these things by preloading on to the spring which impacts how well it works and how much flex you end up in your pedal tray. it looks like you can only do 1/2" springs which I dont think is going to work that well.

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

Thanks for the help metalnwood. For reference these are the springs i ordered:

Compression Die Spring, OD 14mm & ID 7mm Light/Medium/Heavy Mold Mould Springs | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Compression Die Spring, OD 14mm & ID 7mm Light/Medium/Heavy Mold Mould Springs at the best online prices at eBay!

www.ebay.com.au

14mm OD
7mm ID
20mm length

 

[metalnwood]

yes, die springs are easy to get hold of, you will just have to see how it goes

Are you doing it with aluminium profile? 7mm id restricts you a little with the bolt going through it as well as good chances that the spring may spend a lot of its time in contact with the bolt.

Experimentation is whats required though I have tried this myself with 25x38mm springs and works quite well but with lesser transducers you have to live with a squishier platform - which isnt so much of a problem as when pressing hard on the brakes you dont really notice movement, still just notice how hard you are pressing. Its seems if you want less movement you have to do things up tighter and it becomes less effective for the smaller transducers. Here is where the bigger ones will help

 

[anton_Chez]

I would NEVER sacrifice my driving integrity for a bit of isolation. We're spending all this time and money with 8020 rigs these days being the optimal way to mount our seats and hardware and now we're going backwards and actively ADDING flex to a pedal tray?

No thanks.

 

[metalnwood]

I dont think you have to add any flex thats going to bother you. I was trying to explain that unless you get something that matches your setup there could be a compromise.

So there is trial an error involved. You couldnt just copy something that works for one person with different hardware and hope it gives the same results.

 

[anton_Chez]

For those that asked to show some progress on the BK CT mounting. I previously had it behind the seat. But last night I wanted to see how having it more central on the chassis affected the feeling. It's not the best for getting in and out of the seat but I am willing to deal with that because I felt that everything felt a lot more natural where it is. I cannot mount it upside down at the height that the chassis currently sits so this is the best alternative to lifting the entire thing probably 100mm higher than were it is.

I can easily remove the two bolts that hold the mount to the frame and move it back behind the seat if I get annoyed with it where it is.

The TST should fit under the seat no dramas. Hopefully I can do mount it without having to take everything off, as now that the seat houses the G-Belt, it's more annoying that it otherwise would have already been. I'm not a fan of tearing things down once I have them exactly where I want and the seat now makes absolutely no noise after being settled in for a while. When I first got it there were some odd noises here and there.

I have also repurposed the old SMSL amp that I no longer need, into powering two satellite speakers that were basically going to go in the bin. Had an old 5.1 system that is probably close to 20 years old at this point. The amp is buggered but the sub still works and I've connected that directly to the sound card since it has an output for it. I've split the front speaker out like 3 ways now, but it all seems to be working as I expect. I have the 2 channel amp with satellite speakers, bookshelf speakers on my desktop and the headphone amp all coming out of the front L/R.

It's actually AWESOME driving without the earbuds and having even more feedback coming through the sub. The speakers give a really natural sound in the space even with the HMD on so it all feels very proper. Rapped with it.

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

Where did you source the rubber feet from? i assume it had 1" ID to house that 25mm spring?

 

[anton_Chez]

My NX1000D is stuck with the protect lights on. Is she cooked?

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

My rig would probably get torn to shreds by people here as it's a modified fold away cockpit next level gt lite. I simply don't have the space for a permanent cockit with my current living situation. I have a Rseat N1 stored at my parents house I scored for a great price, but I'll save that for another build or perhaps sell it and try my hand at making something like Mr Latte with a strong focus on isolation and bass shaker positioning.

I have added support arms to stabilse the wheel base and used a side mount solution to elimate almost all flex from the DD2. Mod horizontal bracing arm which in turn added space for another bass shaker to mount centre beneath the knees. Currently have:

Pedals: MQB-1 and TST209
Centre: BKConcert
Rear: Q10B
Centre Back: BK Gamer2

Contrary to what I've read across many forums, with these modifications the stability is surprisingly very good. But also more important to what we are talking about here the energy transfer from the bass shakers comes across very well. Maybe I'll post the build if people are interested? as there is not to my knowledge much out there going down this path and showing what experience is possible

 

[RacingMat]

Maybe I'll post the build if people are interested?

Yes, some photos would be cool!

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

Sure, I'll start a build log soon and link it to this thread for people to find

 

[No Depth]

Sure, here's a few pics showing my channel mapping so you can see which effects (mainly taken from the various templates that Mr. Latte has posted in this huge thread) are being sent to them. They are running somewhere in the range of 39-91Hz, depending on the effect. I'm also running them through a t.racks DSP which helps with boosting volume, but only in the ranges where it's wanted.

View attachment 494506
View attachment 494507

Thanks for posting. I was going to ask for some shots of the freq setups as well, but have been doing more tests through trial and error adjusting gain and hz in real time to try to get more sensations and I think I just blew out one of the exciters. It now clicks and makes abnormal noises instead of its usual shake.

At the point where I am frustrated enough to abandon them in favor of a bigger BK bolted under the seat and just let that shake my fiberglass bucket with any effects I want(as @anton_Chez has suggested). Would be nice to rid my wiring of all the exciter cables too I guess(though I am proud of how clean I was able to manage them).

Though I would still say during my tests the effects were felt pretty clearly(and I did get some satisfying sensations), mostly when nothing else was powered, but as I layered in seat motion and the other larger transducers, they still felt too drowned out. Perhaps my lack of DSP is to blame, or likely the Gamer 2 is just overriding them.