Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

boern69 · Sep 11, 2019

the puck on the left oft ur photo can I simply fix them (on the backside) with a round 3m pad at the seat ?
or must I buy a dayton frame for them?

Mr Latte · Sep 11, 2019

I can't remember if the unit came with the 3M sticky pad. I may have used the pad from the additional kit.
It's not that hard to find 3M VHB sticky back solutions on Amazon or ebay that would be ideal size. Or you could just buy the kits

Manual
SMRK

You would get better performance with this but you seem to have an ability to ignore the advice given and want to do your own thing.

I suppose I will have to await your video for showing tactile/motion and results from low Hz tests controlled with crossover?

White Hawk · Sep 11, 2019

Mr Latte said:
Some effects that generate harmonics can create hum tones but its not hard to reduce individual effect layers or disable them. So yes you could find a general output volume and arrangement with the effects you want to feel but use in a midnight mode scenario. Of course you could then save that as a profile as well.

Different seat materials may create reverberations with different frequencies but I have come up with solutions for audio sweeps and test-tones that work via the RPM and Gear Shift that could aid installing and configuring.

As an example, 2am here, people asleep in adjacent rooms, I just finished a 2 hour test session.

OK, so, what cables do I need for this? 3.5mm jacks to XLR from sound card to that amp, and then XLR to bare wire or something from amp to the exciters?

Mr Latte · Sep 11, 2019

White Hawk said:
OK, so, what cables do I need for this? 3.5mm jacks to XLR from sound card to that amp, and then XLR to bare wire or something from amp to the exciters?

Makes it easier if you list the amp/soundcard you have, its hard keeping up with things different people are using and would save looking back over previous posts.

Its a matter of checking if all the outputs on the soundcard you are using are 3.5mm,
Some soundcards may have the main stereo outputs using RCA like my Soundblaster Omni USB. So just buy the correct cables needed in the appropriate length.

The connection from the amp going out to the tactile is SpeakON (Behringer amp?)
You wire that to your speaker cable for the amp and then connect it to the tactile. See the manual for your amp to confirm the connection it uses.

Some tactile units have their own cable attached (BK Mini & Bk Gamer or TST) So in this scenario, you need a SpeakON plug on the cable for the tactile, then a SpeakON coupler to join with the cable going to the amp. This also then needs a SpeakON at each end of its cable.

See 1st Post
I think this is covered in the cable guide thread, some people just buy Speakon cables with connectors already attached. Typically 2core 14 AWG is fine.

White Hawk · Sep 11, 2019

Mr Latte said:
Makes it easier if you list the amp/soundcard you have, its hard keeping up with things different people are using and would save looking back over previous posts.

Its a matter of checking if all the outputs on the soundcard you are using are 3.5mm,
Some soundcards may have the main stereo outputs using RCA like my Soundblaster Omni USB. So just buy the correct cables needed in the appropriate length.

The connection from the amp going out to the tactile is SpeakON (Behringer amp?)
You wire that to your speaker cable for the amp and then connect it to the tactile. See the manual for your amp to confirm the connection it uses.

Some tactile units have their own cable attached (BK Mini & Bk Gamer or TST) So in this scenario, you need a SpeakON plug on the cable for the tactile, then a SpeakON coupler to join with the cable going to the amp. This also then needs a SpeakON at each end of its cable.

See 1st Post
I think this is covered in the cable guide thread, some people just buy Speakon cables with connectors already attached. Typically 2core 14 AWG is fine.

The amp and exciters I’m referring to are the ones you suggested, as for sound card I’ve just found my Sound Blaster Z that I took out of my PC a few years ago so I can use that.

boern69 · Sep 12, 2019

no there no pad but no prob I can order 3m pad without frame
because i dont wanna srew it into the seat ...ok?

I just want to order 1
ButtKicker BK-LFE Low Frequency Effect Transducer for Home Theaters
on parts express from US

Are u sure 2 mini LFE wont do the job and a
ButtKicker BK-LFE Low Frequency Effect Transducer for Home Theaters
is not oversized for my project ?

cheers

Mr Latte · Sep 12, 2019

boern69 said:
no there no pad but no prob I can order 3m pad without frame because i dont wanna srew it into the seat ...ok?

I just want to order 1
ButtKicker BK-LFE Low Frequency Effect Transducer for Home Theaters
on parts express from US

Are u sure 2 mini LFE wont do the job and a
ButtKicker BK-LFE Low Frequency Effect Transducer for Home Theaters
is not oversized for my project ?

cheers

The Dayton Puc 3M is 60mm, below is a comparison to the exciters I prefer to use.

Regards BK units.

To get the full and proper energy with the lowest frequencies, the bigger units are needed. It is not just a wattage thing between the small and large units. It has been discussed and highlighted on this thread many times. You will see people even with large BK LFE on the pedals, they will not use it at high wattage output but it will still deliver better low frequencies even with controlled or a balanced volume.

You will also find in other threads of users that moved up from the smaller Mini LFE to the BK Advance or the LFE and Concert models as they wanted more low-end depth/energy and performance which the smaller units did not accomplish. The much heavier and larger piston in the bigger models helps achieve this but of course being heavier requires a higher minimum wattage. You can have better low-end performance and still control the units crossover to determine the frequency range it operates within. If you limit the output to 30Hz or a bit more you can crank the volume more to give best performance with low bass effects usage. This is why I then recommend the exciters are used to offer the best mid-high range detailing.

The larger units are much less prone to bottoming out as you will be running them well within their wattage limits. This is a common issue/characteristic of the smaller BK Mini and BK Gamer models as people drive them hard in seeking more energy output from them. This then often causes the unit to bottom (piston pang) and them being prone to spiking with frequencies @ 35Hz. This issue is well documented on the internet but was covered on these forums with a working solution, using Parametric EQ to control/reduce the output of the peak frequencies in the characteristic these units have.

Lots of people you will see have taken the advice and used a Behringer amp with DSP functionality for powering the larger BK models. The current recommended model is the NX3000D.

Edit
I seen this offer for a BK Concert

boern69 · Sep 13, 2019

THX for this
the pic shows exactly what i needed to know

great

boern69 · Sep 16, 2019

Here is the video of the Rig in action.
Imo is best to show a standard movement of simhub software. I decided to take only the engine
neutral default by simhub (nice work but I know there are imroved layers for DL on discord)
A pic of the hz range will follow so everyone can test this on his own
Level is 6 from 10 on my fame quad
No one sitting in the rig to point out the movement better (beside I had to film the vid)
If u sit in the rig there is no vibration noise because ur body absorbs the movement.

This really feels "punchy" like ur sitting in real racecar

the movement is horizontal in the back + rolling at the bottom of the rig
the shakers in the middle are not connected yet because I first need to connect a 2. soundcard
and have to improve there position

https://www.mediafire.com/file/k5cujxzlqjoqr4w/VID-20190913-WA0015.mp4/file

boern69 · Sep 17, 2019

Spinelli · Sep 18, 2019

Mr Latte said:
@Spinelli that is a serious collection of hardware and you also have the DSP based amps.
It would be excellent to share findings with you and us opt for our own personal preferences based on what solutions we prefer using.

You not only have excellent tuning options but also have great immersion potential with it too. The TST can handle nice detail with the higher frequencies. Generally, I found around 60Hz they start to outshine the BK models and for several effects detail in the mid-upper bass region is important.

Comparisons between the CRT / LFE were not ideal for me on the previous build and tests as each was not installed in the same place and way. Also as one is 2ohm and the other 4ohm it makes it harder to compare with similar output capacity and volumes. For me, it needs closer in-depth comparison and something I want to re-look at.

Buttkicker do reference that the Concert is more musically tuned for better 40Hz mid-range and LFE is more tuned for movies and subwoofer type bass below the audible range of 20Hz. I am leaning towards using the CRT for engines and additional units for Lat G then using LFE combined with the TST 429 to operate for Bumps. The exciters can be used to further extend detailing of various effects up the back of the seat.

Superior Stereo Positioning
As a concept to consider and test but only one of many possibilities:

Large Bumps = LFE with the additional response via "Lower Spine" installed exciters
Medium Bumps = TST 429 with the additional response via "Sides" installed exciters
Small Bumps = "Shoulder" installed exciters

Note:
This is FIVE units with roles working together per side delivering stereo effects to the whole body.
(It is not 5 units outputting the same thing)

The sensitivity and operation of each bump role can be tailored. You made reference to aspects like road surfaces and avoiding a scenario that all bumps feel alike. This approach goes beyond a single layer/effect and only amplitude altering the variation felt between the size of the bumps. This was a limitation of SSW with its basic controls.

I recently shared an early w.i.p set of bump effects in the Discord that work in this way. Users can place all layers to output over a single unit or if have more split the small/med/large bumps to individual units. Creating effects to work in this way takes time and needs testing by people but its nearly impossible to get feedback, which frankly sucks.

Output Efficiency & Fidelity
I have put a lot of thought into how the tactile is installed, a simple question to ask ourselves is how do we ensure the energy from these goes UP into the seat and is maintained but limits or reduces the energy that goes DOWN away from the seat and into the frame of the rig. Many builds I have looked at do not deal with this factor as well as possible. For me, a large part of the performance in the tactile is all part of controlling the path the tactile can or will take and how we best use body zones. For almost 2 years I have been testing different ideas and options. There is a difference I would say to add tactile to a rig and building a rig for tactile. This is something my own build should highlight when it is eventually being pieced together.

Important - New Possibilities
Simhub totally changed the possibilities with its updated options for routing effects and the ability to have no limits on the number of channels or soundcards used. When we compare Simvibe in this regard its Output Manager for channel control was very limited. I had to duplicate channels and use crossover control to achieve Dual Role so that each unit (LFE/TST) only got the Hz set via the DSP from the original effect.

Now in Simhub, we can send whatever effects to any channel with zero limitations and we can have specific layers for effects made for the individual roles and installed tactile units are given. This means we can apply different methods in effects creation and how they are distributed without having to alter the actual installation. I don't think most people yet realise the significance of this over Simvibe and what it enables in effects creation and control via saved profiles.

Output Performance - Low Mid High
My advice for you at the moment is to get and test some of those exciters to use with what you have. Generally speaking, if you do then in hardware terms you have the best performances covered for Low / Mid / High bass frequencies.

With these installed we then make them work together thus exceeding the potential any single unit achieves on its own or can manage when only installed in a single location. We use multiple units for specific roles and these chosen for providing peak performance in each frequency range.

This helps enable we are outputting effects via the best-suited units and into multiple body regions. Both elements offering a HUGE difference in potential immersion and quality of experience for the user to what typical installations can achieve.

You have my word on that based on what I have studied and learned but proof for you/others is in the testing and trying for yourselves.

I am curious but not convinced that motion cant also benefit from tactile immersion for effects you referenced. For example, Lat G or Gear changes. With motion, these are often repeated in the same manner with different cars. With tactile we can totally change the feeling and character of the sensation for different cars if desired. Sure it's not something I see anyone really attempting to do but this partly as I believe to do it convincingly is more possible with this multiple unit and body zone approach.

Wish you well with the installing and tests.

Thanks so much for the info. Simhub sounds amazing. I may have to move over to it from SimXperience.

I think my first step is in actual hardware mounting. It's so easy with the BK Gamer due to it's clamp, nice and simple. With these, I have no idea where to start. Use 8020 brackets like in the pic I posted above? Do I need to get additional bars of 8020 or is the 8020 frame of my Simlab P1 fine? Do I need to use the rubber puck isolators? If so, where to a put them? What about the big, heavy-duty bracket isolaters (also in pic above)?

From some testing with the BK Gamer last year, I have a good idea of what to do with regards to effects - at least to start with - so that's not a concern at the moment. My main problem is the physical installation, I suck at that stuff, I don't even know where to start

White Hawk · Sep 18, 2019

Mr Latte said:

Did you do that Noctua fan mod on the EPQ304 amp and did it help?

Mr Latte · Sep 18, 2019

White Hawk said:
Did you do that Noctua fan mod on the EPQ304 amp and did it help?

Yes mod is done, BIG noise reduction so much better. Wanted to spend more time with the amp before doing any review. The amp did seem to be working well for the week or so before I had started on my new build, although it hardly needs to output much volume with these.

For the fans I reluctantly cut the wires, joined together then covered with tape as the connector for the fans is much smaller than with the Noctua fan. This will invalidate the warranty if needing to return but I didn't want to wait or try to get some form of cable converter/connector.

Intend to buy a second amp as work on the new seat build progresses. I want to include 8 of the exciters for the back of the seat. Having that amount will give us more options to:

Have more independent effects for specific unit roles
Duplicate specific effects to additional units if desired
Control some effects directional positioning via bottom-top or top-bottom over the seat
Increase / improve the potential character and detailing with creativity in multilayer based effects

Mr Latte · Sep 18, 2019

Spinelli said:
Thanks so much for the info. Simhub sounds amazing. I may have to move over to it from SimXperience.

I think my first step is in actual hardware mounting. It's so easy with the BK Gamer due to it's clamp, nice and simple. With these, I have no idea where to start. Use 8020 brackets like in the pic I posted above? Do I need to get additional bars of 8020 or is the 8020 frame of my Simlab P1 fine? Do I need to use the rubber puck isolators? If so, where to a put them? What about the big, heavy-duty bracket isolaters (also in pic above)?

From some testing with the BK Gamer last year, I have a good idea of what to do with regards to effects - at least to start with - so that's not a concern at the moment. My main problem is the physical installation, I suck at that stuff, I don't even know where to start

It might just be better if you do a thread for your build and ask 8020 owners for advice.
Several have tactile, you can try some options to discover what you prefer or want to do regards installation. I am sure people will help or participate on your journey. It could be interesting but you need to start somewhere.

@boern69
Nah, why show us an engine effect?
What I wanted to see was your rig moving from "positional bumps" on 4 corners, giving independent per wheel feedback. I have yet to see anything in your videos that resembles "motion from tactile" or claims this installation you have is like a "mini-dbox".

Simple, show us actual motion from small bumps and large bumps responding to the onscreen action from the sim running. Also I am curious how do you control via settings the range in motion that the tactile generates? Its a fair question but again is something you have failed to disclose how it is achieved.

I had shared that with previous tests using 2K worth of multiple large Buttkickers this idea of motion from tactile was not possible to do accurately or in a controlled way. You responded as you tend to disagree and you're claiming "motion from tactile" is possible with £15 modded units.

So somebody here is right or wrong, its maybe time to wrap up this debate/topic of attempting to use tactile for motion. if you can't back up these claims in a video, then lets better determine what your perception of motion from tactile really is?

Maybe its time to start and focus more on using the tactile, in its proper application for vibrational and sensory feedback.

Mr Latte · Sep 18, 2019

Here is the newest config of the primary and seat tactile being planned for my build.

The L/R twin isolator towers are to be supported by an 8020 frame that can enable SFX to be installed. Pedals will have independent supports and their own exclusive tactile with a 2 pedal installation being used. This will prevent stereo effects mixing and best maintain positional placement both in the pedals and the seat.

Why so many units?
Its all about performance....

My preference is to ensure different tactile units can have specific effects and roles. This reducing the workload on individual units. Also BK units are combined with TST units for "Dual Role" operation and the optimal balance of best low-end output with the best midrange detailing going beyond the abilities of any single unit.

Mr Latte · Sep 19, 2019

Small Update on bits for my own build...
While I got my steel base sections bolted to my seat that enables me to connect the tubing I will use for the tactile. (I will show them in the upcoming thread for my build)

These items arrived and while they are certainly not cheap. They did seem to be the most professional way I can accomplish having detachable and tidy cables. While I had plans of making my own panel with lots of connections. I decided against the idea as it would have needed a lot of soldering and may of caused more delays. I've not seen a single build incorporate these items before and I liked the fact they are 100% electrically isolated too.

Each one of these boxes will be mounted to the 8020 base frame in close proximity to the tactile. They support an 8 Pole based SpeakON connector that enables 4x SpeakON outputs from the amps via a single cable run and then the individual cable from the box to the tactile.

My build is not the typical rig with 4 or 8 tactile, so the cabling is an additional and costly aspect but one I will fuss over as want it to be to a high standard. Their is no way I was going to have 26 cables just for tactile alone between the rig and the amps.

Attention to detail or just madness? Red/Black theme to match my seat is even being carried over to the SpeakOn plugs and cable sheathing.

*Apologies on post overload

White Hawk · Sep 19, 2019

Mr Latte said:
Yes mod is done, BIG noise reduction so much better. Wanted to spend more time with the amp before doing any review. The amp did seem to be working well for the week or so before I had started on my new build, although it hardly needs to output much volume with these.

For the fans I reluctantly cut the wires, joined together then covered with tape as the connector for the fans is much smaller than with the Noctua fan. This will invalidate the warranty if needing to return but I didn't want to wait or try to get some form of cable converter/connector.

Intend to buy a second amp as work on the new seat build progresses. I want to include 8 of the exciters for the back of the seat. Having that amount will give us more options to:

Have more independent effects for specific unit roles

Duplicate specific effects to additional units if desired

Control some effects directional positioning via bottom-top or top-bottom over the seat

Increase / improve the potential character and detailing with creativity in multilayer based effects

I just received the amp, one Aura transducer and one of those Dayton exciters, working ok, Velcro’d The Aura to the bottom of the seat and slapped the Dayton to the underneath of my heal plate, seems to be working fine, I don’t really know what I’m doing with some of the SimHub settings like the frequencies et cetera to maybe dial it in but so far so good. Going to probably get 2-3 more of the Dayton exciters soon, 2 for the back of the seat and 1 more for heal plate I think.

Mr Latte · Sep 19, 2019

White Hawk said:
I just received the amp, one Aura transducer and one of those Dayton exciters, working ok, Velcro’d The Aura to the bottom of the seat and slapped the Dayton to the underneath of my heal plate, seems to be working fine, I don’t really know what I’m doing with some of the SimHub settings like the frequencies et cetera to maybe dial it in but so far so good. Going to probably get 2-3 more of the Dayton exciters soon, 2 for the back of the seat and 1 more for heal plate I think.

Good News

I think its time people asked @Wotever to come up with or share his own effects or profiles. I am surprised that more has not been done to help newcomers or encourage people to work together on sharing their own efforts regards effects and settings they enjoy or find work well.

Just as an option to consider, it might be better to focus on the seat and have it using at least 4 exciters then think about doing pedals. Different people have their own preferences or approaches. As highlighted before I have found the ability to place different effects on specific channels on the seat can work really well. Effects I am working on is using that approach as I think from testing it is the best path to take. Limiting units to 2-3 effects but with specific roles.

If you get more units installed to the seat then I can try to get you some test effects for engines etc I had worked on. These were created to work on the same hardware which means you should find it easy to adjust them to your liking.

It would be good for you to compare the exciter to the Aura with both again installed to the seat.
Comparing how they operate with different frequency sweeps and giving your own views.

Rob42 · Sep 20, 2019

boern69 said:
Here is the video of the Rig in action.
Imo is best to show a standard movement of simhub software. I decided to take only the engine
neutral default by simhub (nice work but I know there are imroved layers for DL on discord)
A pic of the hz range will follow so everyone can test this on his own
Level is 6 from 10 on my fame quad
No one sitting in the rig to point out the movement better (beside I had to film the vid)
If u sit in the rig there is no vibration noise because ur body absorbs the movement.

This really feels "punchy" like ur sitting in real racecar
the movement is horizontal in the back + rolling at the bottom of the rig
the shakers in the middle are not connected yet because I first need to connect a 2. soundcard
and have to improve there position

https://www.mediafire.com/file/k5cujxzlqjoqr4w/VID-20190913-WA0015.mp4/file

Wow impressive !
I think you managed to build the best tactile immersion that really simmulates the feeling in a real racecar. You proved that it is useless to spend a lot of money on buttkickers to buy good immersion. Thanks for sharing the video and your creative ideas !