Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

I see how the use separate output channels can make a big difference. I been playing more and like using a higher frequency on the seat transducers for a rear wheels sliding. 60-70Hz. However even with two transducers on the foot plate those higher frequencies get dampened out too much because of the rubber mounts. I need to drop the pedal deck to about 48-58 to get the desired effect which feels very similar to the higher frequency at the seat.

Obviously just like a room impacts speaker performance, how a transducer is mounted has a large impact on which frequencies will work well.

For a low frequency lumpy idle they all work well together, but for some effects it's obvious that there needs to be additional customization by location.

Its not just the materials...
Some points to consider, as a bodyzone the heel of your foot is much smaller than your upper body thats in the seat. So you will get much more feedback from tactile in the seat.

Our toes are quite sensitive to tactile but from memory the way you currently have your tactile installed for the pedals appeared to focus on the energy going into the heel plate and this plate is on isolators. Try testing the Hz you mentioned with just a sock on and your full foot on the plate. You may find a bit better results if using steel but I don't think it will be massive difference.

IIRC with your build, any energy from the tactile has to go through the plate then into the isolator and then travel to another section of 8020 before it will go into your actual pedal stems? As your base plate is isolated but the actual pedals do not have direct contact with the plate?

You could consider a new solution for the pedal install and I can give some tips on potential improvements but it would require additional work and new isolators. Based on some test builds I have done, I would say ideally for pedals you want the following:

• Support for pedal stems and base plate is connected together
• Direct tactile energy goes into both (toes/heel)
• This will require a sturdier/firm isolator that can withstand pedal usage/pressure and not dip
• Use the L/R 8020 side beams to create independent supports "|] [|" for the pedals
• Avoid using horizontal section between L/R sides (have one somewhere else to maintain rig rigidness)
• Also for the base plate have it cut with a small gap 3mm for left/right sides

Do this and you will have better direct contact and improve the flow of the tactile as well as improving the stereo activity for any stereo based effects.

You are going to see something along these lines for my own build being implemented.

 

[RCHeliguy]

All that makes sense, but I have to say I've hit the point where I am thrilled with how everything is feeling. I'm getting everything I want and applying it on the track. Yesterday and today I had some great experiences racing with different cars and different tracks that all felt very unique and extremely immersive.

I may tweak the wheel spin depending on the car I'm driving.

I appreciate the suggestion to split the outputs that worked great!

I think I need to live with this for a while and over time see if there is something I'm missing or want that I don't have.

 

[Mr Latte]

All that makes sense, but I have to say I've hit the point where I am thrilled with how everything is feeling. I'm getting everything I want and applying it on the track. Yesterday and today I had some great experiences racing with different cars and different tracks that all felt very unique and extremely immersive.

I may tweak the wheel spin depending on the car I'm driving.

I appreciate the suggestion to split the outputs that worked great!

I think I need to live with this for a while and over time see if there is something I'm missing or want that I don't have.

You definitely have had a lot of changes to the rig and yeah such has to be enjoyed, its madness to just constantly keep altering or changing things and not getting enough time to soak it all in, have a bit of fun.

I have seen different scenarios, people with very simple builds and hardware and tbh they are very happy and content with them. On the other hand, I have seen some with lots of high-end hardware and they kinda never come across as settled or content nor appear to give time to really enjoy and appreciate what they have, quickly moving to the next big upgrade. Its as if the "upgrade" or "chase" becomes the focus. I can say this has happened to me with the pursuit of pushing and pushing the tactile installation I wanted. New ideas and things discovered, with the curiosity from a few too many "what if's".

Have owned the Aura Pro and similar Reckhorn units so I am aware of their abilities.

I can assure you of one thing, with over 10 years messing with tactile. Its very simple to do and apply to your rig with the new seat. At some point get 4 of the exciters and an amp to run them. Hit those bodyzones with better dispersion of effects. Also with their extra detail, what you get will be excellent, bringing more options for effects and for rather little money.

Over the last few nights I have been testing new effects I am working on for the large BK units and at the moment I am only running 2 in mono but geees the sensation from the g-force effects (both lateral/long) and the quality from the bumps is just friggin awesome. That low end bass with the exciters detail (if committing to such recommendations) will be a huge upgrade over what you have and help take the immersion further.

It just comes down to whether it is in the users interest or not I suppose.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I appreciate your "gentle" nudges to greater tactile fidelity ( backing away from the cliff )

I am motivated by challenges and love to build things and you are right that like others you referred to, for me the hobby most of the year was just building the rig and getting it where I was happy, but I did reach that point. I'm not pining away for something more. I'm also not building a museum piece. This thing has a purpose.

Unlike many others here, I'm not much of a motor head and I've never watched racing of any kind. For that matter I don't watch sports either. However I've been competitive and/or serious about a number of sports, but much prefer to take part in sports rather than watch them. Now I'm trying to change focus and learn how to drive fast and be competitive in iRacing. There is plenty of challenge there and I'd like to see how far I can get. I feel like I have a long way to go but I like what I'm seeing.

Maybe as I get better I'll come back around to change things because of that. I do suspect at some point I'll revisit and modify my button box with rotaries etc.. I built it based on my needs right now and since I didn't know how I would use the bottom panel I put a generic placeholder there that goes mostly unused until a later date when I know exactly what I want and how I would use it.

 

[9mm]

Hey guys, this is my first post.

First thanks to @Mr Latte for all his help in so many threads, what a champ.

I'm new to sim racing, and after reading for the last 5.5 hours about tactile, I'm still quite overwhelmed with my choices in what I'm doing.

I have a few more questions.

A lot of information I'm seeing for amps seems old and outdated, and I just want to make sure all this below is not outdated info...

• I'm trying to start with chassis mode
• Rig I'm planning to buy: https://simetik.com/web/product/k2-cockpit/
• Seat: https://www.ompracing.com/en_gb/trs-45038.html
• Parts so far:
  • 4x Aura AST-2B-4
  • 2x SMSL SA-98E
  • Creative Sound Blaster Audigy PCIe RX 7.1 Sound Card

Location information

• The K2 cockpit will be sitting on a hardwood floor
• I planned on putting the 4 Aura units like this:
  • 2x under left and right foot
  • 2x on metal seat mount to left and right of bucket seat where it attaches to cockpit

Some questions...

1. Are my current product choices "good" or am I making a stupid mistake?
2. Am I missing anything on my list of things to buy?
3. Has the amp suggestions changed at all over the years? I see many aren't made anymore.
4. Do I need rubber isolators if it's on hardwood floor?

Thanks!

 

[Mr Latte]

@9mm

Hi, thanks for comments....
Give me prices of that hardware you are seeking to buy.

Yes for isolators they will help (K2 is nice looking rig btw)
Search for Wagner MP-4E EVA Anti-Vibration Pad 4x4" those are excellent for floor.

You will need cables (speaker cables and soundcard-amp leads)

 

[9mm]

@9mm

Hi, thanks for comments....
Give me prices of that hardware you are seeking to buy.

"SMSL SA-98E TDA7498E Stereo Amplifier 2 x 160W" from www.parts-express.com!

SMSL SA-98E TDA7498E Stereo Amplifier 2 x 160W

www.parts-express.com

2 x $116.98 = $233.96

"Aurasound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker Tactile Transducer" from www.parts-express.com!

Aurasound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker Tactile Transducer

www.parts-express.com

4 x $47.50 = $190.00

Total: $423.96 USD

I forgot the soundcard I was planning to buy:

https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Audigy-SB1550/dp/B00EO6X7PG/

$49.39

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay, are you in USA or somewhere else?
What seat are you for using?

 

[9mm]

Okay, are you in USA or somewhere else?
What seat are you for using?

I'm in the USA, and the seat is this: https://www.ompracing.com/en_gb/trs-45038.html

I was also considering this though... Sim Labs P1 rig

I don't really have a preference currently, just going off what I've been reading. If that makes everything much easier and better I wouldn't mind paying more.

 

[9mm]

One unrelated note... I have heard people say that if you buy a bucket seat you should mount it at an angle. From what I gather it looks like I can't do that out of the box, so I'm not exactly sure how to mount it (to either the K2 or the P1), in a way that is comfortable and also supports aura units.

 

[Mr Latte]

Cheers, P1 will be stronger and more adaptable thats why most buy into 8020.
Give me a budget for the tactile, I will give you the best option/path to consider.

Back in a while (eating)

 

[9mm]

Cheers, P1 will be stronger and more adaptable thats why most buy into 8020.
Give me a budget for the tactile, I will give you the best option/path to consider.

Back in a while (eating)

Wow awesome, ok... well I have a spreadsheet for my current vision based on the ages of reading I've done.

I have made the K2 lines in red and replaced it with the P1 (I also excluded the red numbers from the total, so the total amount is accurate).

My current budget was $5000, but one of the great things about being self-employed is if I want more I just work more... so I suppose I could go to $6000 without being too stressed about it. I left the extra buffer though to account for shipping.

Overall, I have never shy'd away from paying more for better quality, but there's always that line where buyer's remorse can kick in, so I think for starters the current budget allocated to tactile seemed acceptable, but I'm open of course to paying more if a few hundred dollars would yield much better results.

 

[9mm]

One final comment -- this list is meant to be 'all inclusive', so if I have forgotten anything (wires, mounts, misc rubbish that ruins the moment when stores are closed and you only need a single piece)... I am all ears.

There were 3 areas of concern that were still a bit unknown to me atm, but I planned to just call the company directly to ask. I'll ask it here regardless though, but don't feel pressured to answer as the thread is about tactile.

1. mounting a bucket seat at an angle, and so the Aura units can go on there correctly
2. mounting the aura units under (next to?) the pedals on the P1
3. the shifter mounting seems nice on the P1 right out of the box... but I'm unsure about the handbrake and how to mount it

I planned to use mostly VR but I would likely get the single-monitor attachment for the P1 as well

 

[Tangogulf]

@Mr Latte

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if the Dayton exciter daex32ep-4 creates heat? I currently own an Obutto revolution. The seat is soft, so mounting these exciters presents some difficulty.

The seat back (on driver side), has velcro strips, so I can gain access for my back area. One solution I have thought about is to mount the exciter on the internal foam and covering it with another layer of foam to offset the bump it creates.

This concept is dependent on the amount of heat generated. I dont want to melt the inner foam or burn the house down.

Any advise here?

 

[Mr Latte]

@9mm
Okay thanks for that, plenty of good hardware you have picked out. I will focus on tactile hardware.
Soundcard you will need regardless of the tactile chosen, cables etc may vary again depending on what you may want to do.

Looking at the 4x Aura and 2x SMSL amps that is approx $424
For perspective, we can see that more is being spent on a shifter/handbrake or the pedals.

Quite a bit of high-end gear has been chosen but if looking at the tactile you have what are pretty much in fairness budget options. So what should a person expect from that, after all, lots of people have similar hardware on these and other forums right?

4 Channel Mode
This became the "Option Of Choice" based on Simvibe Chassis Mode and its popularity in the sim community.

Truth be told, it can be overrated, firstly as the number of actual stereo effects (especially with Simvibe) is limited. 4x something just okay is well err okay in what it can achieve. Yet their seems this perception that to get the best immersion with tactile in sim racing, then you need responses for all 4 wheels and then maybe later add another unit for additional engine/gearchange etc.

I recommend focussing on quality and upgradability!

The best immersion for tactile will come from having an installation that can capably deliver the full bass frequency range. It is very important to be able to deliver this. It is not a wattage thing, do not fall into the mindset that you only need 50w units for a cockpit and beyond this is overkill.

Having an installation that can deliver 1-200Hz of bass places you in a very good position. Certainly when compared to the common/popular models most people have that will only perform well with @ 30Hz-80Hz.

This approach I offer, will let you have a much wider range of sensations and also greater variation from any of the effects you want to use. With this will come more power, depth, greater assertion and also with much more zing, or spice to the detail from generated harmonics of various effects.

Amps
1x Behringer EPQ 304 (also do fan mod)
4x DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 40W Exciter

Shop around for best deal on amp, (Parts Express) price seems high to that of UK for the amp.
This should come in under $400 for the lot. This in my experience is how anyone getting into tactile should start. It does require though a suitable seat to work best.

I would also recommend you price/purchase the Behringer Powerplay HA6000
It is a bit of gear that will give you excellent control and bass management, although it will add to the cost and need additional cabling it is very much recommended.

Now, if you want to spend more or you can add at a later time...
To add with that, you want at least 1x large BK unit and an amp to power it (amp will power a 2nd BK also)

My advice is go this path, forget about tactile on pedals to start, focus on the seat and achieving the desired quality and performance this configuration achieves over conventional. You will be grinning with the joy it brings to the racing and immersion and I would say will want to expand it further to pedals etc once you experience what it offers.

The other benefit with this approach is that all the new effects I am currently working on will suit this exact hardware. So you will be able to get effects with lots of research and testing done for them, knowing they will work well. This is part of the whole concept and approach I offer to people.

 

[9mm]

@9mm
Okay thanks for that, plenty of good hardware you have picked out. I will focus on tactile hardware.
Soundcard you will need regardless of the tactile chosen, cables etc may vary again depending on what you may want to do.

Looking at the 4x Aura and 2x SMSL amps that is approx $424
For perspective, we can see that more is being spent on a shifter/handbrake or the pedals.

Quite a bit of high-end gear has been chosen but if looking at the tactile you have what are pretty much in fairness budget options. So what should a person expect from that, after all, lots of people have similar hardware on these and other forums right?

4 Channel Mode
This became the "Option Of Choice" based on Simvibe Chassis Mode and its popularity in the sim community.

Truth be told, it can be overrated, firstly as the number of actual stereo effects (especially with Simvibe) is limited. 4x something just okay is well err okay in what it can achieve. Yet their seems this perception that to get the best immersion with tactile in sim racing, then you need responses for all 4 wheels and then maybe later add another unit for additional engine/gearchange etc.

I recommend focussing on quality and upgradability!

The best immersion for tactile will come from having an installation that can capably deliver the full bass frequency range. It is very important to be able to deliver this. It is not a wattage thing, do not fall into the mindset that you only need 50w units for a cockpit and beyond this is overkill.

Having an installation that can deliver 1-200Hz of bass places you in a very good position. Certainly when compared to the common/popular models most people have that will only perform well with @ 30Hz-80Hz.

This approach I offer, will let you have a much wider range of sensations and also greater variation from any of the effects you want to use. With this will come more power, depth, greater assertion and also with much more zing, or spice to the detail from generated harmonics of various effects.

Amps
1x Behringer EPQ 304 (also do fan mod)
4x DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 40W Exciter

Shop around for best deal on amp, (Parts Express) price seems high to that of UK for the amp.
This should come in under $400 for the lot. This in my experience is how anyone getting into tactile should start. It does require though a suitable seat to work best.

I would also recommend you price/purchase the Behringer Powerplay HA6000
It is a bit of gear that will give you excellent control and bass management, although it will add to the cost and need additional cabling it is very much recommended.

Now, if you want to spend more or you can add at a later time...
To add with that, you want at least 1x large BK unit and an amp to power it (amp will power a 2nd BK also)

My advice is go this path, forget about tactile on pedals to start, focus on the seat and achieving the desired quality and performance this configuration achieves over conventional. You will be grinning with the joy it brings to the racing and immersion and I would say will want to expand it further to pedals etc once you experience what it offers.

The other benefit with this approach is that all the new effects I am currently working on will suit this exact hardware. So you will be able to get effects with lots of research and testing done for them, knowing they will work well. This is part of the whole concept and approach I offer to people.

Ok this is super amazing advice. I will take your advice for both. I just have a few follow up questions

1. What is a BK unit?
2. Can you explain the benefit of 40W exciter over the aura ones? I'm not doubting at all I'm just trying to understand your reasoning to improve my knowledge
3. What is the "fan mod" for EPQ304?
4. So I assume all 4 are on the seat now only right? And I would be using Extended Mode instead of chassis mode... where would I put the 4 items on the seat?

Thanks again!!

 

[Mr Latte]

1. Buttkicker (If seeking best performance, you want the largest LFE or Concert models)
2. Just look over this thread since about May onwards I have covered why to get these many times.
3. I showed it here too, a few month back. 30 min job easy to do as fans with Behringer amps are noisey
4. Yes for seat, Simvibe for tactile is now not the way to go. Simhub's "Shakeit Bass Shaker" is free (give a nice donation) and it is much better and in so many ways....

4.Why seat.....
(a) Direct contact with multiple bodyzones
(b) These exciters offer better response with good mid-bass but much better high bass frequencies
(c) 4x units offer better dispersion of effects than two in seat base
(d) we can place different effects to shoulders, spine, sides, you detect multiple effects better this way
(e) you can go more than 4 units, my seat will use 8x exciters, (4x back, 2x sides, 2x knees).
.
We use a large BK unit a bit like a subwoofer and the exciters are like normal speakers.
So in the effects being created, we apply low bass to go to the BK unit but then have the exciters handle mid and high bass with their own effect layers.

It simply is a much smarter way to approach tactile and it bypasses the limitations single units have.
This way you will get the most awesome low bass but also the best detailing.

Typical units like Aura Pro, the various £/$50 models and the BK Mini models perform at their best between 30H-80Hz.

This is only a 50Hz window/range to cram in a lot of different effects. My approach in this concept offers the ability to have 4x that and do so over more channels to more body locations. This gives much better immersion but ALSO more freedom in effects design/creation we can now use. These are the biggest factors that people may overlook.

If you want you can have a 2nd BK and exciters in the pedals or you can have stereo BK in the seat. It depends if your own preference is more for (front to back) effects, for example, braking and acceleration or on feeling directional effect in stereo for suspension, impacts and lateral G forces.

Note, lots of people have 4 way installs but they are not getting let say "good stereo" directional perception from them. An installation with a large BK operating on its own in mono can be more impressive, having really good quality effects designed to use the full bass potential also makes a big difference.

[edited]

 

[Ruttman98]

9mm:

No one has addressed your possible seat choices and others (me included) are curious about using exciters on various seat styles: tubular steel (like my Corbeau FX-1), fiberglass, plastic, carbon fiber, or aluminum.

Seat construction: Important considerations for tactile AND mounting

If my research is correct, the Sparco TR model you selected as a possible choice is a steel tube design which could make mounting exciter pucks a challenge. In contrast, affixing exciters to shell type seats of aluminum/poly plastic/fiberglass/Kevlar/carbon fiber construction should be as easy as applying double-sided tape.

Because I am dubious about tactile transmission on a tubular frame seat AND an easily removable cover would facilitate exciter testing, I have been researching formed aluminum road racing seats by Butlerbilt, Kirkey, and Ultra Shield.

Additionally, because my Corbeau seat is bottom mount only--making increasing the layback difficult, I am toying with selling the Corbeau.

Formed aluminum seats

Butlerbilt containment seats are probably overkill for simracing given their cost. Kirkey seats offer similar options, multiple sizes and configurations and considerably less cost. Kirkey even has a Spec Miata seat. Ultra Shield also have some great looking seats and competitive prices but they have a 5 week lead time.

Most of the aluminum seats have a fixed 10° or 20° layback. The Kirkey 65-series features a bottom/back design which can be mounted with a layback ranging from 18-23°. With cover, the seat is around $470 shipped in the U.S. This option intrigues me the most.

Seat brackets

For the majority of adjustable brackets you will need a side mountable seat. @RCHeliguy spent big bucks for beautiful adjustable Sparco side mount brackets.

Kirkey side mount brackets are a relative bargain at $49.99 MSRP a pair ($45.45 most places online) and allow for multiple height and angle adjustments. These would bolt straight to your rig frame rails; mounting with a two pairs of . PLEASE NOTE: I have seen disclaimers that these should not be used with composite seats.

Fore-Aft Adjustability

Most side mount brackets would bolt straight to your rig frame rails. Mounting with a two pairs of 5/16-in cam locks should fit 1.5-in. Standard or metric 40mm T-slot extrusions (I bought mine online from Rockler Woodworking) would likely provide 6+ inches of fore-aft adjustment depending on your rig.

 

[9mm]

9mm:

No one has addressed your possible seat choices and others (me included) are curious about using exciters on various seat styles: tubular steel (like my Corbeau FX-1), fiberglass, plastic, carbon fiber, or aluminum.

Seat construction: Important considerations for tactile AND mounting

If my research is correct, the Sparco TR model you selected as a possible choice is a steel tube design which could make mounting exciter pucks a challenge. In contrast, affixing exciters to shell type seats of aluminum/poly plastic/fiberglass/Kevlar/carbon fiber construction should be as easy as applying double-sided tape.

Because I am dubious about tactile transmission on a tubular frame seat AND an easily removable cover would facilitate exciter testing, I have been researching formed aluminum road racing seats by Butlerbilt, Kirkey, and Ultra Shield.

Additionally, because my Corbeau seat is bottom mount only--making increasing the layback difficult, I am toying with selling the Corbeau.

Formed aluminum seats

Butlerbilt containment seats are probably overkill for simracing given their cost. Kirkey seats offer similar options, multiple sizes and configurations and considerably less cost. Kirkey even has a Spec Miata seat. Ultra Shield also have some great looking seats and competitive prices but they have a 5 week lead time.

Most of the aluminum seats have a fixed 10° or 20° layback. The Kirkey 65-series features a bottom/back design which can be mounted with a layback ranging from 18-23°. With cover, the seat is around $470 shipped in the U.S. This option intrigues me the most.

Seat brackets

For the majority of adjustable brackets you will need a side mountable seat. @RCHeliguy spent big bucks for beautiful adjustable Sparco side mount brackets.

Kirkey side mount brackets are a relative bargain at $49.99 MSRP a pair ($45.45 most places online) and allow for multiple height and angle adjustments. These would bolt straight to your rig frame rails; mounting with a two pairs of . PLEASE NOTE: I have seen disclaimers that these should not be used with composite seats.

Fore-Aft Adjustability

Most side mount brackets would bolt straight to your rig frame rails. Mounting with a two pairs of 5/16-in cam locks should fit 1.5-in. Standard or metric 40mm T-slot extrusions (I bought mine online from Rockler Woodworking) would likely provide 6+ inches of fore-aft adjustment depending on your rig.

Damn, this makes my head. Just when I thought I had it mostly figured out

So you're saying I basically wouldn't be able to attach it to a steel frame seat then... here is the exact link if that helps: https://www.ompracing.com/en_gb/trs-45038.html

 

[Ruttman98]

Damn, this makes my head. Just when I thought I had it mostly figured out

So you're saying I basically wouldn't be able to attach it to a steel frame seat then... here is the exact link if that helps: https://www.ompracing.com/en_gb/trs-45038.html

Good looking seat and I am partial to blue covers, but would be hesitant to buy it without one of our RD members confirming whether pucks can be readily attached to tubular frame seats.