Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[ScreaminBejesus]

...

I'm gutted and going off to sulk in the corner for a while

Sending you a PM

 

[RCHeliguy]

I think I just stumbled upon something that might be very useful here especially for mounting transducers to seat shells.

I've been playing with silicone molds and thick pour epoxy and something interesting came out of it.

Thick Pour Epoxy can be poured up to 2-4" thick and has a very long cure time. After about 48 hours it is somewhat solid, but very malleable as in form fitting. You can probably see where I'm going with this after 72 hours it become quite hard and rigid and after another day it is solid as a brick.

I've been working with 3/4" thick pours and what dawned on me is that I could pour a 1/2" thick "slab" of this and then wrap it around a complex shape and let it harden and possibly press say a transducer into it and then drill holes in the epoxy and through bolt the part.

I've been using a jet black powder to color the epoxy and I've found it wet sands and polishes very nicely. However you use any color or make leave it clear.

I have found that it is important to vacuum out the bubbles to get a nice solid smooth epoxy finish.

This something I molded out of thick pour epoxy with black powder coloring.
The white color is polish.
Even at 3/4" thick it still bends after around 48 hours.

I've been using thick pour Liquid Glass. This shows the vacuum, vacuum oil ( it uses oil especially if you don't slowly bleed the vacuum to the chamber at startup from full pressure ).

Actually given that you can mold epoxy in all kinds of custom shapes very easily, I'm getting all kinds of ideas. This stuff is REALLY tough. Then again I haven't tested it with an LFE to see how it holds up. It may be worth considering embedding a fiberglass mesh or metal screen to help prevent issues.

 

[Mr Latte]

Here is an example to help illustrate RPM.

Lets assume a car has 8000 rpm and to make this easier to follow
If we apply a frequency range that starts at 1Hz and goes upto 80hz

The car may idle at @1000rpm so lets say for simpleness sake at 1000rpm this car is outputting 10Hz
At 2000rpm it will be 20Hz and 3000rpm = 30Hz and so forth upto 8000rpm being 80Hz

Simple so far right?

Now it depends on what tactile units the user is running but with large BK then yes the user will get the low 10Hz reproduced fine. As they increase the rpm they will likely feel the strongest bass energy between the 20-40Hz so between 2000-4000rpm but not far beyond this the energy will start to drop off.

This is normal as higher based frequencies have less bandwidth/energy.


Notice how the width of the gaps is smaller with increased frequencies.

The problem with this low-high single layer approach is that now when we get to 6000rpm and upto 8000rpm which is what will be the most active with going through the gears at race speeds. This range that should feel really good now feels quite limited and lacking.

Yes, the user can use "Output" mode which will now increase the dB as the rpm increases to help provide more sensation with these higher and less energy based frequencies. Yet this does not compensate properly the same sensations like the user feels with the low to mid rpm that in this example would feel nice as it is producing the better low-mid bass.

still with me?

This is the reason we apply additional layers so that we can have a surge of energy come in for specific or desired rpm to give the engine something more meaningful for the peak rpm range.

You also have to learn how to use the response curve but it operates based on the (base) & (high) values given and then what you want the peak dB to be applied.

Look at other people's effects and if they are multilayers, then chill, simply turn them all off and learn how and what each does by enabling only one at a time.

You will soon get a grasp of it.

 

[Mr Latte]

*Above needs to be confirmed but I mostly use "INPUT" mode for the RPM effects.

To my understanding IIRC

Horizontal = The RPM range % for the car used. Its not the actual RPM
So value of 80 is the car at 80% max RPM not 8000 RPM.

We map effects to come in at desired % of the RPM to suit specific cars.
Yet in many cases with different cars, a curve that is based on percentage can work well

So with above we also see that at @35% RPM scale it reaches @50% vertical height on the response curve. With (INPUT) mode. This is NOT only gain as many people think it is.

The vertical for the curve represents the range value in the Hz settings you have applied.
So if we had 100Hz and 1Hz then 50% vertical would be 50Hz but what this generates depends on the values you enter for (Base) or (High) frequencies.

The point I see with using this "Response Curve" engine option is that we can shape and apply specific Hz to operate at RPM ranges we want for certain cars. If I want a Ferrari to feel different than a Merc or McLaren then, no probs we create unique curves that have their own unique Hz for specific ranges or engine characteristics.

Overview of above:
In this, above we see that idle is kept to the (Base Hz) value and climbs to give a sensation of inertia increasing in frequency to about 35% RPM. This is also good to give a nice feel of deceleration with lower speeds gradually producing more bass. Yet we apply a smoother or more gradual curve for this as it will last longer and is more progressive. We can calculate what 50% is from the Hz range we set between the (Base/High) values given. In this example, it would be 55Hz, if we targetted a higher HZ then we could increase the vertical curve to achieve that in relation to the values being used.

You can have (BASE) as the lower frequencies and HIGH for the higher frequencies but in some scenarios, (like illustrated here) we may want the opposite.

We see the curve going back down towards the (High) user set value again as we approach mid RPM and towards @70% engine RPM.

From here, we see a bit of an increase or hump applied and this is to give some additional sensations for the primary racing RPM percentages which are about the last 20%. With this RPM range we want good feel and energy so we are intentionally keeping it around the punchy bass/frequency values. We then also see a large vertical increase towards the (Base) user Hz setting for the @96% to Max RPM value at 100% which will sharply surge from the 48Hz up to 170Hz. This gives a sensation of hitting the peak limiter that will feel unique and even uncomfortable if desired.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The SimHub ShakeIt manual entry would be a good start, but is also not very helpful, if the reader doesn't understand, that the response curve changes gain (volume) and frequency.
For these specific questions, I can highly recommend joining the SimHub Discord and use the search function there. Here the best explanation I could find (that helped me as well):

Wow, how did you get to that wiki page.
The only ShakeIt entry available from main SimHub wiki is this

ShakeIt V3 Bass Shakers Audio Output Configuration

Multi sim dashboard, bass shaker driver, .... Contribute to SHWotever/SimHub development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Guess I have found it and more, it's on side bar contents and hidden unless you click "show more"

 

[Mr Latte]

Seems a lot of work RC

Regards seats with complex shapes/curves for the back or indeed the underside.
I showed this solution to others and maybe shred here a while back, can't remember but not seen anyone try to use/do it.

• Simple easy to bend over your knee aluminum strips.
• Shape it to the desired curve
• Apply rubber or foam to side of contact of seat
• Bolt shaped aluminum strip to 8020 or other support
• Alternatively, bolt to seat back/underside
• Attach tactile/exciter

Basically, the vibrational energy from exciter will travel directly over the strip that has a larger surface contact than the unit itself. Could be ideal or worth testing with but certainly one method of directing/controlling the path or regions you want to target and maybe can't get an exciter to stick.

It may even be possible to do this with only a small piece to suit a curve and then using VHB or Dual Lock to bond without drilling.

 

[EsxPaul]

Thanks to all for the words of encouragement. There's a lot of really good people involved in this thread and I very much appreciate all of the help that's been given to me throughout. I've now gathered all my toys up and put them back in the pram again. Beginners frustration got the better of me there

@Mr Latte Thanks very much for the explanation and graph regarding the response curve. I'm going to have a try at replicating something like that as a good way to get familiar with the software. I'll be back to throw another tantrum tomorrow when I fail hard in my attempt

 

[Mr Latte]

We need to look closer into this and other functions to properly determine the operation of things.

Confirm what I said above is accurate or not as its from recollection and I ain't got any tactile running the past 2 months so I cant easily go check at this time. I will though with my own rig thread cover things like this and feedback on how the whole thing feels with the experimental tactile installation it will use.

Really though, to get to grips with things try options and go with what you like the feel of. You can easily apply a simple layer and then duplicate that and compare how it feels with "input/output" options selected or likewise with other effects duplicate it to compare to another layer with some difference.

Doing that will help you discover the direction you may want to go with certain effects that suit your own preferences.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Seems a lot of work RC

Regards seats with complex shapes/curves for the back or indeed the underside.
I showed this solution to others and maybe shred here a while back, can't remember but not seen anyone try to use/do it.

That's a great solution, and I'm not trying to take away from it. I've been doing a lot of machining aluminum and it is my preferred material on my rig.

What is hard at least for me to do with aluminum is build it up to a thickness I need. Epoxy is interesting in that you can start out with 1/2" thickness, form it where you want it and then scuff it and pour more when it isn't entirely cured after 2 days and still get very good cohesion and basically a solid form fitted piece with a flat area to mount a transducer.

I've even considered creating a blank with epoxy, plying it and building it up to given thickness and then refining it with files and sandpaper after forming and then taking that blank and sand casting that in aluminum. However I'm concerned about the strength of cast aluminum. Unless you pour it very quickly at the right temperature it can end up with pour layers

Anyway, I'm just trying to come up with way to fabricate something with a perfect fit that can be done at home without a torch and milling equipment.

 

[Mr Latte]

I expect RC that in your youth you watched A-Team
Think you already got a lot of tool shop toys and do plenty of experimenting with things but let's see what you come up with.

 

[DM77]

Got my T.racks DSP arriving tomorrow and all the cables, I suspect tomorrow evening will be a joyous event with cables, wires, connections, amps, tactiles and a frustrated me strewn all across the living room

 

[DM77]

I'll get some dual-lock ordered tonight, but damn that stuff is expensive! Is it amazing stuff, overpriced, or does it do something normal velco strips just wont do?

 

[Tomber]

I'll get some dual-lock ordered tonight, but damn that stuff is expensive! Is it amazing stuff, overpriced, or does it do something normal velco strips just wont do?

Show me any Velcro handling a bowling ball! That stuff is really good.

 

[DM77]

Show me any Velcro handling a bowling ball! That stuff is really good.

LOL fair enough I just ordered some, and some cable crimps and assorted ends and sleaves ready for the big day tomorrow.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I'll get some dual-lock ordered tonight, but damn that stuff is expensive! Is it amazing stuff, overpriced, or does it do something normal velco strips just wont do?

It makes a much more mechanically secure "interlock", that does a much better job of tranferring acoustic energy across the interface. Velco/Hook-and-loop material will lose a lot of energy in the "squishy" loop, by allowing the exciter body and piston to move in space without deflecting the mounted surface.

Its not that expensive. $20 USD on amazon for enough to do 15-20 exciters. Or you can get a 10ft roll for $30...which is enough to do 30.

 

[DM77]

It makes a much more mechanically secure "interlock", that does a much better job of tranferring acoustic energy across the interface. Velco/Hook-and-loop material will lose a lot of energy in the "squishy" loop, by allowing the exciter body and piston to move in space without deflecting the mounted surface.

Its not that expensive. $20 USD on amazon for enough to do 15-20 exciters. Or you can get a 10ft roll for $30...which is enough to do 30.

On Amazon in the UK its £17 for 1.5m, its more expensive than I expected, but I was thinking at the time it's just like velcro - now you've explained the practicality of it for tactile, the value proposition is better

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

*Above needs to be confirmed but I mostly use "INPUT" mode for the RPM effects.

To my understanding IIRC

Horizontal = The RPM range % for the car used. Its not the actual RPM
So value of 80 is the car at 80% max RPM not 8000 RPM.

We map effects to come in at desired % of the RPM to suit specific cars.
Yet in many cases with different cars, a curve that is based on percentage can work well

So with above we also see that at @35% RPM scale it reaches @50% vertical height on the response curve. With (INPUT) mode. This is NOT only gain as many people think it is.

The vertical for the curve represents the range value in the Hz settings you have applied.
So if we had 100Hz and 1Hz then 50% vertical would be 50Hz but what this generates depends on the values you enter for (Base) or (High) frequencies.

The point I see with using this "Response Curve" engine option is that we can shape and apply specific Hz to operate at RPM ranges we want for certain cars. If I want a Ferrari to feel different than a Merc or McLaren then, no probs we create unique curves that have their own unique Hz for specific ranges or engine characteristics.

Overview of above:
In this, above we see that idle is kept to the (Base Hz) value and climbs to give a sensation of inertia increasing in frequency to about 35% RPM. This is also good to give a nice feel of deceleration with lower speeds gradually producing more bass. Yet we apply a smoother or more gradual curve for this as it will last longer and is more progressive. We can calculate what 50% is from the Hz range we set between the (Base/High) values given. In this example, it would be 55Hz, if we targetted a higher HZ then we could increase the vertical curve to achieve that in relation to the values being used.

You can have (BASE) as the lower frequencies and HIGH for the higher frequencies but in some scenarios, (like illustrated here) we may want the opposite.

We see the curve going back down towards the (High) user set value again as we approach mid RPM and towards @70% engine RPM.

From here, we see a bit of an increase or hump applied and this is to give some additional sensations for the primary racing RPM percentages which are about the last 20%. With this RPM range we want good feel and energy so we are intentionally keeping it around the punchy bass/frequency values. We then also see a large vertical increase towards the (Base) user Hz setting for the @96% to Max RPM value at 100% which will sharply surge from the 48Hz up to 170Hz. This gives a sensation of hitting the peak limiter that will feel unique and even uncomfortable if desired.

Just catching up with this wave of activity. Great advice here, I didn't understand the Input/Output option so left everything defaulted to Output (if it ain't broke). Will try to give some RPM Input tests a go over the coming days and see if I can come up with anything interesting.

Good luck to the rest of you guys installing new stuff, feel like we've got a good little community here.

@RCHeliguy - Really interested in how you get on with thick pour epoxy. I've been watching some YouTube videos recently on similar stuff, but don't currently have the space to work with it. Are you posting your creations on any other forum?

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RCHeliguy - Really interested in how you get on with thick pour epoxy. I've been watching some YouTube videos recently on similar stuff, but don't currently have the space to work with it. Are you posting your creations on any other forum?

I've posted a bit in my Rig Build thread, but to date it has centered around my SC2 QR wheel hangars which I decided I would get better results milling out of solid Delrin. None of it has been creatively using Epoxy's long cure time yet.

I think I'll start forming a small piece to the curve of my HE Sprint Clutch pedal and then file it to shape, drill it and bolt it down.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

I've posted a bit in my Rig Build thread, but to date it has centered around my SC2 QR wheel hangars which I decided I would get better results milling out of solid Delrin. None of it has been creatively using Epoxy's long cure time yet.

I think I'll start forming a small piece to the curve of my HE Sprint Clutch pedal and then file it to shape, drill it and bolt it down.

Thanks for the reply. I'll check out and follow the rig build. Really interested to see what can be made out of this stuff. keep up the good work.

 

[EsxPaul]

Gents, as mentioned previously, I had an issue where I wasn't feeling any tactile for the engine RPMs until it passed a threshold at 2300. Nothing was felt below that number.

The engine idles at 1730RPM (ACC Huracan) and I've managed to get a sensation of that by altering a response curve from this

To this

Is doing such a thing the recommended or correct way to go about this? Grabbing one of those blue dots and just pulling it around until I feel something seems a bit crude and uneducated to me and I suppose I will be losing other aspects of the intended feedback by doing it this way.

Is there a different and better approach for a noob that you guys would use instead or should I just stick to holding the throttle at 1K, 2K, 3K etc and pull the curve around at each point until I feel what I imagine what would be correct at each rev range?