Tactile Journey / Experiment

[Codeias]

The start

So with a P1-X rig in place, a decent 2080ti PC silently running in the background, triple monitors and a HTC Vive Pro VR headset on hand, I thought all was well in the world, but something was still missing from the emersion of any sim I loaded... at first I thought motion should be the port of call to bring things to life more, so with SFX-100 bits 3D printed the plan was motion all the way...

A spanner in the works...

However, searching through YouTube and Instagram, the old Buttkicker Gamer2 kept cropping up (at this stage I wasn't a RaceDepartment member and the genius that is @Mr Latte was unknown to me). So, a BK G2 was winging its way to me for testing / playing with, although not ideal for the P1-X rig it gave me insight and an understanding of tactile, by the way, a BK G2 can produce some decent energy, its like the metal arm it's connected to somehow amplifies the small transducer. It can rattle the P1-X but in a very broad and underwhelming way, it simply wasn't specific or concentrated enough to a specific area, that area being my butt / Sparco seat.

I'd thought about a way to connect it directly to the seat (while still allowing the seat to slide on the rails), but it just didn't seem like it was going to work, I'd also never considered having 4 Mini LFE's on the corners of the P1-X, especially after having the BK G2 connected to it, knowing how the rig just seems to dissipate the energy from the BK G2 I figured it would do the same to any other transducer I added to corners, it did make me wonder why SimLabs would sell special brackets for such things, but thats for another day. So the question was what to do now...?

RaceDepartment

Whilst browsing through Instagram I'd come across a guy posting pics of his rig build, a DM later he'd mentioned "exciters" that could connect directly to a hard shell seat vis its 3M VHB adhesive and within that chat a mention of @Mr Latte on the RaceDepartment forum... so after some reading of the 100 or so pages of the Tactile Immersion thread, the plan was formulated (from the bits I understood in and amongst the pages and pages of tactile discussions)... 8 x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 transducers, 4 Douk Audio Nobsound Amps (NS-010G) and some isolation of the seat with the BK G2 being moved to the pedal plate and get that isolated somehow.

And it begins...

The exciters and amps arrived the next day (thanks to the might Amazon) and were played with on different surfaces to see what they could do. I was impressed with how they turned pretty much any solid surface in to a full range speaker, although this wasn't the purpose of them, it was impressive to hear it work, with the DAEX32EO-4 only being 40W I went with small 50W per channel Nobsound amps (NS-01G), no point in the 100w type with the exciters being so small. They are attached to the seat, as follows:

2 shoulders / wings (Left/Right)
2 at lower back / spine (Left/Right)
2 at bolsters (Left/Right)
2 under the seat (towards the front so as to be positioned near the front of the thighs - Left/Right)

General rig / setup as of 12th May 2020

Rig
SimLabs P1-X with Quad Monitor Stand
Sparco Evo II Seat
3 x Gigabyte Aorus 27" CV27F Curved (1500R)
1 x Dell 25"
HTC Vive Pro VR
Fanatec ClubSport V2.5
Fanatec Clubsport Formula V2, Porsche 918 RSR & GT Motorsport wheels
Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V3
Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ V1.5
Fanatec ClubSport Handbrake V1.5
Button Box

PC
Overclocked (4.9GHz) i9 9900K
EVGA RTX 2080Ti 11GB
32GB DDR4
2 x 1TB SSD
Hardline Watercooled
SteelSeries Arctis Pro Wireless Headphones

Tactile
Behringer NX3000D (3.5mm to XLR)
1x Buttkicker Concert (SpeakOn to Banana)
1 x Buttkicker Gamer2 (wired to SpeakOn)
4x Nobsound NS-01G
8x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Exciters
SimHub

It all seemed very promising...

So after some initial setup and playing with SimHub, I was up and running 6 exciters, Shoulders, Lower Back and Bolsters (all Left & Right) from my 7.1 sound card with the other 2 exciters (under the seat) running on a mono channel paired with the BK G2 at the pedals, 8 Custom Channels in all, on SimHub, not ideal with the G2 and the exciters under seat all firing on the same 2 channels at the same time but it was working none the less, I had 8 exciters and the G2 working.

Instantly it was far better than I expected, these small exciters were doing their job, there was a bit of a rattle at the shoulders from time to time and what I thought was the exciter "pang'ing" the seat shell, but once setup in SimHub there was clearly left and right channels working as I drove over bumps, curbs and so on... with the SteelSeries headphones the only thing I could hear was the sim (engine, road noise etc...) and I could feel the tactile, bumps and gear changes through the seat, it was immersive. Yes it was early days and it got better as I started to understand SimHub a little more and found the right volume in SimHub combined with the right amp volume, but I was just scratching the surface and I knew I could do better with a little guidance...

The generosity of strangers!

I needed help, and the person best to help would be the man who's very idea of small exciters had put me on this journey... @Mr Latte. His help has been instrumental in getting to the point of having the 8 exciters, a BK Concert and Gamer2 hooked up with the NX3000D and all running on different SimHub layers, those layers being complex and custom with Speed, RPMS, Road Vibration, Impacts, Wheelslip and Gear Change, all running to specific transducers and focusing on the Ferrari 488 in ACC (generally at Spa) so we have a baseline for constant comparison and feedback.

The exciters on there own are fantastic and as a budget solution are great, what stands out with them is the 40Hz and above range with specific body parts feeling the tactile / energy well, right shoulder, right bolster / thigh on a curb as you bump / run over it and so on.

With that said though, when adding the G2 at the pedals and the BK Concert attached directly to the seat... the immersion and range from 0Hh through to 200Hz is what I can only describe as overwhelming, but it a good way, almost overload on the senses, in a way that makes you laugh out load... my cheeks, chin and eye lids shaking as the 488 takes a corner at speed, leaving the 488 pulled over on the track and the engine idling, you would swear there was a car parked in the house.... without a shadow of a doubt.

So the BK Concert combined with the small tactile exciters works and works well, imagine the speed building from under the seat, to the lower back and bolsters then as speed builds it continues up the seat where at top end the shoulders are feeling the energy of it all... it is quite simply the missing link between the FFB from the wheelbase and the rest of your body, it makes such a difference to being immersed in the sim.

On from this came the isolation of the seat from the frame, to stop the energy (or reduce the energy) from passing to the rig frame and dissipating. This was the next big eye opener, feeling all that energy from 9 transducer stay in the seat took things up a level.

So this thread / post is all very generally at the moment and I'll certainly go in to more detail with those that would like to know more, there is still plenty to do, the pedal isolation isn't finished, nor is the seat isolation, by doing it all to this stage I can see how important it is to have the energy stay where I want it and not leak out (like a water leak would, given the chance), we want the energy to enter the body and our touch / contact points, not the P1-X frame.

I'll begin to post more pics and the odd SimHub screen shot as further progress is made and give greater insight in to my opinion of the setup working and its failings. This tactile combined with SFX-100 motion would be unreal.

Then came this purchase

Monitors needed to be stripped back to cater for the increase height on the seat with the isolators.

Temporary isolation, some plates are required to cater for the 64mm rubber feet - This is a @Mr Lattee solution and it really does work.

 

[JohnBeardmore]

Great write up and so good to hear that the Mr Latte recommended spec gives such fantastic results (not that I doubted it wouldn't).

After hours of reading what you have done is what I thought was the way to go. Good to get confirmation.

I like the attention to detail too such as routing the exciter cables through the seat shell, very neat.

 

[jamescarruthers]

Fantastic write up - may I ask what the isolators are you’re using on the seat?

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah superb writeup, still many effects testing to be done that I am working on but I appreciate and want to thank you @Codeias for the help, with the feedback you have been giving and also sharing your own rig and views on how it performs here.

Excellent to see you enjoy it and express the felt feelings in the body with the potential this brings in combining the large BK with the exciters. Especially that low bass and how we boost but also control it using the DSP.

Things could be improved I think with the exciters with some effects layers specifically made for them to maybe bring a bit more zest/zing to the Ferrari engine and to match that sheer energy the BK brings.

 

[EsxPaul]

I really enjoyed reading your post @Codeias What a great job!

I love the attention to detail and the genius idea of routing those cables through the seat in such a neat way. Brilliant!

I'm looking forward to more detailed posts as you go along your journey and I'd especially like to see more details on how exactly you mounted the big concert and routed the cabling in the inside of the seat shell. I had been scratching my head over a way to route seat cabling but none of my ideas were anywhere near as good as what you've done here.

 

[Mr Latte]

Is the cylindrical part currently inserted into the isolators?

 

[Codeias]

Is the cylindrical part currently inserted into the isolators?

They sure are, the longer thread stud mounts finally arrived, they are slightly leaning as the front of the seat is wider than the rear, it offers great isolation but yet its pretty solid when sat in, very little movement, its a great invention of yours sir!

 

[Codeias]

I really enjoyed reading your post @Codeias What a great job!

I love the attention to detail and the genius idea of routing those cables through the seat in such a neat way. Brilliant!

I'm looking forward to more detailed posts as you go along your journey and I'd especially like to see more details on how exactly you mounted the big concert and routed the cabling in the inside of the seat shell. I had been scratching my head over a way to route seat cabling but none of my ideas were anywhere near as good as what you've done here.

Thanks, much appreciated... yeah the wires on the rig do my head in at the best of times, but the additional ones with the exciters were actually vibrating against the seat shell, it was that noise that I assumed was the exciter metal body hitting the shell at the right shoulder "pang'ing" as it were. I stripped the seat back and then ran the the wires where it seemed to make sense. I'll get a pic up, I used some velcro to keep them in place.

and no more wires...

the BK Concert is just simply bolted directly to seat, nothing fancy, just holes drilled and bolted on!

 

[Codeias]

Fantastic write up - may I ask what the isolators are you’re using on the seat?

These are another bit of genius from @Mr Lattee, I feel like I should leave it to him to explain in detail as I wouldn't want to take credit for his creation. They are basically rubber feet at top and bottom with a stud mount in the middle.

The end result is spot on at isolating the seat, still a bit to do here with some CNC machined plates as the rubber feet are 64mm, as you can see from the pic they overhang the 40/40 profile, with the addition of some decent anti vibration and sound deadening material top and bottom we should be done with the seat isolation.

 

[EsxPaul]

Thank you, that's a really neat and tidy job you've done. I have a very similar type seat so those pictures are really helpful for me

I would imagine the wiring holes for the exiters closest to your shoulders were quite tricky to get in the right place, having to avoid the non removable side bolstering.

the BK Concert is just simply bolted directly to seat, nothing fancy, just holes drilled and bolted on!

So you didn't need to use any rubber washers etc. Just hard bolted on there with all metal hardware?

 

[Codeias]

Thank you, that's a really neat and tidy job you've done. I have a very similar type seat so those pictures are really helpful for me

I would imagine the wiring holes for the exiters closest to your shoulders were quite tricky to get in the right place, having to avoid the non removable side bolstering.




So you didn't need to use any rubber washers etc. Just hard bolted on there with all metal hardware?

No, I've got some neoprene washers but I thought why would I potentially soften the impact of the concert with rubber etc... I figured if it wasn't right for whatever reason I could always add the washers if need be but its been excellent just bolted straight to the shell, metal washer at the heads under the seat cushion and thats it.

As for the shoulder holes, the holes are so small I knew if I went too far by accident it wouldn't be the end of the world, but it was fine, took it slow and it worked out!

 

[JohnBeardmore]

Question: With the Gamer 2 under the pedals do you get any electrical or mechanical interference with the pedals?
There is a big magnet close to transducers on the pedals and I was wondering if you get any electrical interference.
Mechanically there are vibrations when you are trying to carefully modulate brake and accelerator. Do these vibrations affect the pedals and hence your throttle and brake control.

I am making my own pedals and was thinking of putting an exciter directly onto the pedal stem of the brake (which will be a load cell) but was wondering if the vibrations would cause the brake pressure to increase / decrease.

 

[Codeias]

Question: With the Gamer 2 under the pedals do you get any electrical or mechanical interference with the pedals?
There is a big magnet close to transducers on the pedals and I was wondering if you get any electrical interference.
Mechanically there are vibrations when you are trying to carefully modulate brake and accelerator. Do these vibrations affect the pedals and hence your throttle and brake control.

I am making my own pedals and was thinking of putting an exciter directly onto the pedal stem of the brake (which will be a load cell) but was wondering if the vibrations would cause the brake pressure to increase / decrease.

No electrical interference that I've noticed, I'll keep an eye out for it now that you've mentioned it.

The G2 is bolted to the SimLab pedal plate and the ClubSport pedals are then bolted to the SimLab pedal plate, the G2 sits on top, in-between the clutch and brake, not underneath (I'll get a pic of how its currently setup) but I think its going to need some tweaking moving forward. The whole pedal plate is then isolated from the rails and P1-X rig using anti vibration stud mounts.

I currently have the G2 set to the the custom 'gear change' SimHub layer, along with a low volume level for front 'wheelslip' layer. I'd had it previously set to a 'deceleration' layer and that seemed to work really well, almost like ABS kicking in with heavy braking, not as intense, but thats the best way to describe it.

Would love to see the pedals as they come together, keep me updated on them.

 

[JohnBeardmore]

Thanks for the reply.
I will do a thread on the pedals once I am at a stage to show something. The clutch uses a real clutch plate.
Unfortunately I have run out of argon for my Tig and am waiting for lock down to ease before getting some more.

 

[Codeias]

Thanks for the reply.
I will do a thread on the pedals once I am at a stage to show something. The clutch uses a real clutch plate.
Unfortunately I have run out of argon for my Tig and am waiting for lock down to ease before getting some more.

Here you go John, this is the current pedal / G2 setup (that still requires some work)...

it’s tight but the only contact is the bolt to the base plate, the G2 arm isn’t in contact with the pedal frame or components.

Excuse the wiring, needs lots of work.

isolation of the pedal plate to the frame, there’s slight movement of the plate under hard breaking but nothing that would effect performance or feel, not that I’ve noticed anyway but I’m rubbish so it would impact me!

 

[JohnBeardmore]

Thank you for the pictures.
I was wondering about pedal movement when braking with isolators.

I also like the seat frame used under the pedals which allows easy pedal adjustment. Good idea.

 

[CC]

I have the same Sparco Evo 2 seat didn’t realise they was that strong specially to hold that large buttkicker under it that thing is crazy powerful
wish I’d not seen this thread...

 

[AJ McDaddy]

@Codeias This is a fantastic thread - you've really put some thought and effort into this. I'm on a very similar journey thanks to @Mr Latte !!!

Which sound card are you using for the output?

 

[vanka472]

Great right up! Mr. Latte lead me over here, and this is a great place for me to start for tactile on my rig I think! I would love to copy/ask you some questions on some stuff if you don't mind!

For starter, what exactly is an exciter? Is this what people bolt to large pieces of wood or material and then let that "amplify" the sound?

Also if I was just to start with the exciters but no buttkicker, would that still give me the tactile feel I want to start with? I was thinking maybe 4 instead of 8?

 

[CC]

The start

So with a P1-X rig in place, a decent 2080ti PC silently running in the background, triple monitors and a HTC Vive Pro VR headset on hand, I thought all was well in the world, but something was still missing from the emersion of any sim I loaded... at first I thought motion should be the port of call to bring things to life more, so with SFX-100 bits 3D printed the plan was motion all the way...

A spanner in the works...

However, searching through YouTube and Instagram, the old Buttkicker Gamer2 kept cropping up (at this stage I wasn't a RaceDepartment member and the genius that is @Mr Latte was unknown to me). So, a BK G2 was winging its way to me for testing / playing with, although not ideal for the P1-X rig it gave me insight and an understanding of tactile, by the way, a BK G2 can produce some decent energy, its like the metal arm it's connected to somehow amplifies the small transducer. It can rattle the P1-X but in a very broad and underwhelming way, it simply wasn't specific or concentrated enough to a specific area, that area being my butt / Sparco seat.

I'd thought about a way to connect it directly to the seat (while still allowing the seat to slide on the rails), but it just didn't seem like it was going to work, I'd also never considered having 4 Mini LFE's on the corners of the P1-X, especially after having the BK G2 connected to it, knowing how the rig just seems to dissipate the energy from the BK G2 I figured it would do the same to any other transducer I added to corners, it did make me wonder why SimLabs would sell special brackets for such things, but thats for another day. So the question was what to do now...?

RaceDepartment

Whilst browsing through Instagram I'd come across a guy posting pics of his rig build, a DM later he'd mentioned "exciters" that could connect directly to a hard shell seat vis its 3M VHB adhesive and within that chat a mention of @Mr Latte on the RaceDepartment forum... so after some reading of the 100 or so pages of the Tactile Immersion thread, the plan was formulated (from the bits I understood in and amongst the pages and pages of tactile discussions)... 8 x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 transducers, 4 Douk Audio Nobsound Amps (NS-010G) and some isolation of the seat with the BK G2 being moved to the pedal plate and get that isolated somehow.

And it begins...

The exciters and amps arrived the next day (thanks to the might Amazon) and were played with on different surfaces to see what they could do. I was impressed with how they turned pretty much any solid surface in to a full range speaker, although this wasn't the purpose of them, it was impressive to hear it work, with the DAEX32EO-4 only being 40W I went with small 50W per channel Nobsound amps (NS-01G), no point in the 100w type with the exciters being so small. They are attached to the seat, as follows:

2 shoulders / wings (Left/Right)
2 at lower back / spine (Left/Right)
2 at bolsters (Left/Right)
2 under the seat (towards the front so as to be positioned near the front of the thighs - Left/Right)

General rig / setup as of 12th May 2020

Rig
SimLabs P1-X with Quad Monitor Stand
Sparco Evo II Seat
3 x Gigabyte Aorus 27" CV27F Curved (1500R)
1 x Dell 25"
HTC Vive Pro VR
Fanatec ClubSport V2.5
Fanatec Clubsport Formula V2, Porsche 918 RSR & GT Motorsport wheels
Fanatec ClubSport Pedals V3
Fanatec ClubSport Shifter SQ V1.5
Fanatec ClubSport Handbrake V1.5
Button Box

PC
Overclocked (4.9GHz) i9 9900K
EVGA RTX 2080Ti 11GB
32GB DDR4
2 x 1TB SSD
Hardline Watercooled
SteelSeries Arctis Pro Wireless Headphones

Tactile
Behringer NX3000D (3.5mm to XLR)
1x Buttkicker Concert (SpeakOn to Banana)
1 x Buttkicker Gamer2 (wired to SpeakOn)
4x Nobsound NS-01G
8x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Exciters
SimHub

It all seemed very promising...

So after some initial setup and playing with SimHub, I was up and running 6 exciters, Shoulders, Lower Back and Bolsters (all Left & Right) from my 7.1 sound card with the other 2 exciters (under the seat) running on a mono channel paired with the BK G2 at the pedals, 8 Custom Channels in all, on SimHub, not ideal with the G2 and the exciters under seat all firing on the same 2 channels at the same time but it was working none the less, I had 8 exciters and the G2 working.

Instantly it was far better than I expected, these small exciters were doing their job, there was a bit of a rattle at the shoulders from time to time and what I thought was the exciter "pang'ing" the seat shell, but once setup in SimHub there was clearly left and right channels working as I drove over bumps, curbs and so on... with the SteelSeries headphones the only thing I could hear was the sim (engine, road noise etc...) and I could feel the tactile, bumps and gear changes through the seat, it was immersive. Yes it was early days and it got better as I started to understand SimHub a little more and found the right volume in SimHub combined with the right amp volume, but I was just scratching the surface and I knew I could do better with a little guidance...

The generosity of strangers!

I needed help, and the person best to help would be the man who's very idea of small exciters had put me on this journey... @Mr Latte. His help has been instrumental in getting to the point of having the 8 exciters, a BK Concert and Gamer2 hooked up with the NX3000D and all running on different SimHub layers, those layers being complex and custom with Speed, RPMS, Road Vibration, Impacts, Wheelslip and Gear Change, all running to specific transducers and focusing on the Ferrari 488 in ACC (generally at Spa) so we have a baseline for constant comparison and feedback.

The exciters on there own are fantastic and as a budget solution are great, what stands out with them is the 40Hz and above range with specific body parts feeling the tactile / energy well, right shoulder, right bolster / thigh on a curb as you bump / run over it and so on.

With that said though, when adding the G2 at the pedals and the BK Concert attached directly to the seat... the immersion and range from 0Hh through to 200Hz is what I can only describe as overwhelming, but it a good way, almost overload on the senses, in a way that makes you laugh out load... my cheeks, chin and eye lids shaking as the 488 takes a corner at speed, leaving the 488 pulled over on the track and the engine idling, you would swear there was a car parked in the house.... without a shadow of a doubt.

So the BK Concert combined with the small tactile exciters works and works well, imagine the speed building from under the seat, to the lower back and bolsters then as speed builds it continues up the seat where at top end the shoulders are feeling the energy of it all... it is quite simply the missing link between the FFB from the wheelbase and the rest of your body, it makes such a difference to being immersed in the sim.

On from this came the isolation of the seat from the frame, to stop the energy (or reduce the energy) from passing to the rig frame and dissipating. This was the next big eye opener, feeling all that energy from 9 transducer stay in the seat took things up a level.

So this thread / post is all very generally at the moment and I'll certainly go in to more detail with those that would like to know more, there is still plenty to do, the pedal isolation isn't finished, nor is the seat isolation, by doing it all to this stage I can see how important it is to have the energy stay where I want it and not leak out (like a water leak would, given the chance), we want the energy to enter the body and our touch / contact points, not the P1-X frame.

I'll begin to post more pics and the odd SimHub screen shot as further progress is made and give greater insight in to my opinion of the setup working and its failings. This tactile combined with SFX-100 motion would be unreal.


View attachment 372198

View attachment 372199

Then came this purchase

View attachment 372201

View attachment 372200

Monitors needed to be stripped back to cater for the increase height on the seat with the isolators.

View attachment 372202

Temporary isolation, some plates are required to cater for the 64mm rubber feet - This is a @Mr Lattee solution and it really does work.

View attachment 372203

View attachment 372204

Is that a proper FIA seat or just a Sparco gaming seat Codeias?
I bought the FIA version don’t expire until 2024 seems harsh taking the drill to it