Cars The legality of cars converted from other games

[Geraint Thomas]

I've got a bit of a conundrum here.

I've been building the LeMans 2007 series in Assetto Corsa for a few weeks now, and have found most of the cars for download. Trouble is, they're conversions from Race Driver: GRID, and GTR2. They started off as quite awful ports (no lights, bad sounds, etc), but I've been working on them to make them half-decent and very much drivable.

It's got to the point where it's so enjoyable that I'd love for others to try it, but this is where the legality comes into play.

If one were to publish these car conversions for personal use, but to also ask that you purchase a copy of GRID and GTR2 before downloading to ensure credit and revenue were heading to the developers of the cars, would this still be frowned upon? No one would be profiting off this, aside from the developers (unlike ScamDream). My instinct is that it wouldn't be right, but it would be a shame; these cars are great fun to experience on track (Courage LC70, Audi R10, Dome S101, etc), so it's worth asking for opinions.

It's worth noting that I wouldn't be releasing the cars myself; only the championship files, links to the car downloads, plus patches that contain my fixes for the cars to ensure they're playable.

Either way, it's worth putting out there. If you see the photos below, you'll get some idea of how fun these are.

 

[Halcyonn]

Your gut feeling is in the right place but I see where you're coming from, it would be a shame to have the models rot away into obscurity.

If one were to publish these car conversions for personal use, but to also ask that you purchase a copy of GRID and GTR2 before downloading to ensure credit and revenue were heading to the developers of the cars, would this still be frowned upon?

Frowned upon? Depends on who you ask obviously since there are a lot of rips floating around. Uploading files from would likely breach any EULA and result in legal ramifications should the publisher/developer decide to go after you, it does not matter if you put that disclaimer beforehand since it's still a breach in the license you agreed upon buying the product. Now, I can't speak for the chances of a legal team deciding to pursue the matter in such a niche hobby but I personally wouldn't risk it. If you somehow manage to get permission then that's another thing.

Ripping game files for strictly personal use is another question, I guess it would depend on the EULA in question (see for example with AC where the developer actually provided modding tools). Linking to other sites is another thing entirely since you yourself didn't actually upload the content, I guess in that case it's up to you to decide where to draw the line.

As I said before: I see where you're coming from. I'm a dirty grid collector (and I assume a lot of people are) and like to have completed racing periods so I understand your motive with the mod your creating. Just my two cents.

 

[Gevatter]

On Racedepartment, posting mods without expressed permission of the original creator (in this case whoever owns the copyright to the models and the games you took the cars from) is against the ToS and if you post them here, they'll be removed.

See here: https://www.racedepartment.com/help/terms/

 

[Johnr777]

Race Department has kept a good reputation by enforcing their TOS, like Gevatter mentioned above. Your idea of only linking the actual cars might fly under the radar here because its an extremely gray area, but in my opinion, unethical and like your instincts already suggest... not the right thing to do.

If you don't need the higher exposure this site provides, and just want to share whatever work did on these cars, then there are other sites and ways you can do that.

 

[Geraint Thomas]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. It certainly is a grey area, especially like you've said I wouldn't be uploading the mods myself. It would of course only be a championship file and patches for the cars, with the cars simply being links to the original uploader. The legalities would fall upon them, but as you've stated, it's not exactly the right thing to do.

I did consider using a disclaimer to state that it's your decision whether you download the cars or not. Technically that's legal - I've not uploaded anything that's not mine. But the mortality of doing that is still very much in question. I did try to contact Codemasters to see - on the slim chance - if they'd allow the files to be used for personal use. To no surprise, there's no way of contacting them.

I'll give it some thought but will most likely shelf the idea, which is such a shame. I've got the modelling and texturing skills to make these cars, but absolutely no time.

Appreciate the discussion and honest answers!

 

[Rodger Davies]

I think there are a couple of areas here:

1. Uploading files from other games who have licenced and modelled cars is a straight up legality no-no. Personally I've little against it morally (whether a car is converted to AC or not wouldn't influence me buying/not buying another game) and that's up to each individual, but it's clearly not legal to upload something that Polyphony, Turn10, Codemasters or whoever have created as part of a licenced agreement with the IP holder.

2. Converted mods are more of a moral area. They're uploaded as art and, in the majority of cases, not for profit. Profiteering off any mod using brand names and content that a publisher would need to content is almost certainly illegal anyway. But morally, I think in modding circles the consensus is that you should do everything possible to get permission from the original modder first and, only if you tried everything and can't reach them, then it's ok to post it with a note crediting them and saying you're happy to remove it if asked.

But then about your actual intentions...

Racedepartment policy seems to be that it's ok to upload something that doesn't fall into the above categories. Examples of that would be things like you discussed, so skins and data files for 'non legit' content is fair. These very rarely link to the original files though.

That's just my understanding and opinion and those are certainly not set in stone; mind is open to listen to opinion of the modders out there.

One note though; Racedepartment though acts an excellent quality guide and the ratings for scratch built content do an excellent job IMO in showing what's actually worth downloading; there's a reason content by Lilski, John777, FatAlfie, Stereo, AD3R, Ben OBro, Pessio, aphidgod and others stays pinned to the top when you sort by rating.

Appreciate you creating a post to discuss though, rather than just throwing things out there!

 

[Ben Lee]

It seems as though its somehow acceptable to rip everything under the sun into rF2, yet if you do the same with AC people get in a state about it. I am all for having rules on content and IP, but it seems as though they dont apply universally.

 

[Johnr777]

It seems as though its somehow acceptable to rip everything under the sun into rF2, yet if you do the same with AC people get in a state about it. I am all for having rules on content and IP, but it seems as though they dont apply universally.

Here? There can be a few that have managed to stay online... but thats because the reporting of illegal mods is mostly done and policed by the community, and AC is by far the most active one. There were tons of mods for older games that had to be reported recently.

 

[Ryno917]

I think there are a couple of areas here:

1. Uploading files from other games who have licenced and modelled cars is a straight up legality no-no. Personally I've little against it morally (whether a car is converted to AC or not wouldn't influence me buying/not buying another game) and that's up to each individual, but it's clearly not legal to upload something that Polyphony, Turn10, Codemasters or whoever have created as part of a licenced agreement with the IP holder.

2. Converted mods are more of a moral area. They're uploaded as art and, in the majority of cases, not for profit. Profiteering off any mod using brand names and content that a publisher would need to content is almost certainly illegal anyway. But morally, I think in modding circles the consensus is that you should do everything possible to get permission from the original modder first and, only if you tried everything and can't reach them, then it's ok to post it with a note crediting them and saying you're happy to remove it if asked.

These two cases, legally, are exactly the same. Uploading some else's work without express permission isn't legal, whether it be a corporation's or a private individual's. The only difference between the two is in the rights holder's financial ability to begin legal proceedings.

Of course in IP law it's the responsibility of the rights holder to police it. Most companies don't bother because it doesn't affect their bottom line, but throughout the nearly 30 years I've been in various modding communities I've seen a number of legal cases brought against modders; both for using ripped content and for using trademarked or copyritten materials. It's very rare, but it does happen.

Also, whether or not a game's content is licensed or fictional has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it's legal to rip it, either. If someone else created the files, and you do not have permission to do so it is illegal to distribute them. Period.

 

[Dethrone1427]

I've got a bit of a conundrum here.

I've been building the LeMans 2007 series in Assetto Corsa for a few weeks now, and have found most of the cars for download. Trouble is, they're conversions from Race Driver: GRID, and GTR2. They started off as quite awful ports (no lights, bad sounds, etc), but I've been working on them to make them half-decent and very much drivable.

It's got to the point where it's so enjoyable that I'd love for others to try it, but this is where the legality comes into play.

If one were to publish these car conversions for personal use, but to also ask that you purchase a copy of GRID and GTR2 before downloading to ensure credit and revenue were heading to the developers of the cars, would this still be frowned upon? No one would be profiting off this, aside from the developers (unlike ScamDream). My instinct is that it wouldn't be right, but it would be a shame; these cars are great fun to experience on track (Courage LC70, Audi R10, Dome S101, etc), so it's worth asking for opinions.

It's worth noting that I wouldn't be releasing the cars myself; only the championship files, links to the car downloads, plus patches that contain my fixes for the cars to ensure they're playable.

Either way, it's worth putting out there. If you see the photos below, you'll get some idea of how fun these are.

I for one sir are very, very interested in this project. It sounds magnificent, any download links would be graciously received! Thanks.

 

[Ghoults]

One of the issue with these ripped cars is that even if you had a modder willing to ask permissions and chase the rights owners there may not be anyone who can even give that permission. An old game like grid (is this old, I don't know grid games?) or gtr2 do not sell really anymore. But at the same time the game studios may not own the models themselves. They may have bought the models from modellers for that game only (and then heavily edited them to make game ready).

Obviously porsche owns the rights to porsche trademarks and designs but the entity who made the model owns that 3d model. And porsche trademark and designs are owned by porsche. Or what if porsche gave some cad model to use as the base. It can get complicated. And in addition to that you have game studios and publishers. Who even gets to make those decisions? And even worse, companies get sold. Who even makes the decisions for gtr2 nowadays?

So you may have a situation that the game studio might be willing to give you the permission but they don't have the rights to give the right to use the model because the model is owned by some artist originally.

In the case of old games like gtr2 I'd imagine they own the models and made them from scratch originally. So I would ask for permission in that case. They have given permission historically but with a cd-check. That is pretty difficult even technically nowadays as most people don't have cd drives. But at the same time they don't make any money from it anymore and the models are out of date anyways for modern productions.

I don't see any harm just asking. Who knows. Try to offer a solution that works for them as well?

 

[Nedddo]

To get required permissions takes longer than making from scratch IMHO