Timing Gates and Position

[Caribstu]

I've got a Problem with Timing Gates and Race Position. I've recently completed my most difficult track build to date. After a lot of tinkering, I've finally got it where it needs to be.

A recurring issue was the AI ran at quarter race speed, even after the usual adjustments were made in the AIW file for AI lap speed differential as follows;
WorstTime=(0.90000)
MidTime=(0.95000)
BestTime=(1.05000)
WorstAdjust=(0.99000)
MidAdjust=(1.0000)
BestAdjust=(1.15000)
QualRatio=(1.395) // Used to adjust AI speed in qual compared to base values
RaceRatio=(1.421) // Used to adjust AI speed in race compared to base values
CheatDelta=(0.0000,0.0000,0.0000)
AIRange=(0.05000)

I've come across that problem before and found the best solution was to delete the racing line/fast line and all waypoints in BTB, then regenerate a new AIW file..

After several attempts, and one or two track layout changes, that solved the slow lapping AI, and they're now at acceptable race speed.

But a new problem has emerged and it may be related to having regenerated the waypoints so many times.
The timing gates are not recording any lap times, either race or quali, and the position counter has the player in P1 regardless.

I've ensured there are not more than the necessary timing gates accidentally generated by multiple model / import saves in 3DsimEd. To the best of my knowledge (though could be wrong ) the timing gates in the model correlate to the waypoints in the AIW (though not entirely sure how to check/verify that)

It was an absolute bugger of a track to build, but i really like where it's at now, apart from this issue, so, needless to say, Any solutions would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Original track built in BTB Evo, all post production edits done in 3DsimED.

 

[Speednut357]

Hello, Great to hear that you are working on track creation, I can't wait to see what you have created.

I wonder if one of us may be able to correct the AIW line issue with the RF_AIW_CAM_EDIT_4.05. A simplistic AIW line editor tool.

I have been slowly learning BTB Evo myself it is not very straightforward. I do remember one of the Tutorial videos. The Dev said his AIW creation tool in BTB was very basic and that he couldn't be bothered working on it anymore because there are already better tools available for AIW line creation.

 

[Caribstu]

Hello, Great to hear that you are working on track creation, I can't wait to see what you have created.

I wonder if one of us may be able to correct the AIW line issue with the RF_AIW_CAM_EDIT_4.05. A simplistic AIW line editor tool.

I have been slowly learning BTB Evo myself it is not very straightforward. I do remember one of the Tutorial videos. The Dev said his AIW creation tool in BTB was very basic and that he couldn't be bothered working on it anymore because there are already better tools available for AIW line creation.

To be fair, It's not that often i've had problems with creating AIW files in BTB that i've never felt the need to try something else. The AI line isn't really the problem, it's the Timing Gates and race position (1st, 2nd, 3rd etc) that's not functioning. Though lap counter is.

Not sure if RF_AIW_CAM_EDIT_4.05 would fix it. Will check it out, thanks.

 

[MJQT]

If you're looking for the most up-to-date version of the AIW editor, I uploaded it here a little while ago. Not sure, though, if it provides a means of modifying timing gates. The UI for the program is impenetrable, though, so a feature useful to you may be hiding in there somewhere
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/guitarmaen-aiw-cam-editor.54199/

 

[Caribstu]

If you're looking for the most up-to-date version of the AIW editor, I uploaded it here a little while ago. Not sure, though, if it provides a means of modifying timing gates. The UI for the program is impenetrable, though, so a feature useful to you may be hiding in there somewhere
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/guitarmaen-aiw-cam-editor.54199/

Downloaded.... It looks like something I'll spend some time learning.

 

[Caribstu]

PROBLEM SOLVED.... my apologies, I was being a pelican.

In 3DsimED post production when I'm editing a track, I often make an edited version in BTB, then open it in 3DsimEd to import new objects/track/terrain/walls from my edited versions of the track build. I have a tendency to rename all objects in the new model with a (suffix) edit1, edit2, etc.... before importing the new objects/track/terrain/walls I want placed into the final model.

On this occasion I'd renamed everything with a prefix, rather than a suffix, copy&paste ALL, and not noticed the original timing gates had been deleted, leaving only the edited paste in gates that had the incorrect prefix.

So instead of having xpitin, xpitout, xfinish, I had edit1xpitin, edit1xpitout, edit1xfinish.

The result of which was, no sector times or lap times recorded, and the positional count remained at 50/50.

To Solve.
Delete all timing gates from the final model in 3DsimEd.
Export the track from BTB again.
Without changing the obj. names, Copy and Paste the new timing gates into the final model.

Hey Presto. Problem solved.

(in my defense i've not been working on any tracks for almost two years due to other commitments and I'd completely forgotten to check the timing gates were the correctly named ones).

 

[Caribstu]

If you're looking for the most up-to-date version of the AIW editor, I uploaded it here a little while ago. Not sure, though, if it provides a means of modifying timing gates. The UI for the program is impenetrable, though, so a feature useful to you may be hiding in there somewhere
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/guitarmaen-aiw-cam-editor.54199/

Curious to know. Have you ever encountered AI rolling at a corner. In two of my track builds that's happening on two specific corners.

One is a downhill 70 degree right hand turn with an adverse camber, the other a left right dog-leg.
Both have medium-to-high entry speeds, but sufficient braking area before the apex.
It seems the AI are trying to carry too much speed into and through the corners, causing them to Roll.

Not sure how to solve the problem and wondering if this is the sort of fix that can be made in the AIW editor, if so, HOW?

Thanks.

 

[Speednut357]

Thanks for sharing your fix so we can learn from your mistakes. The problem your having with Ai carrying too much speed is just the sort of problem we fix with the AIW editor. The method I normally use is to narrow the track boundary and re-plot the AIW path, the editor will automatically recalculate the speed for the new narrower corner. Another common method is to add a small S into the path on the approach to the corner, even the smallest swerve will cause the path to be calculated slower. A much more painful method is to manually adjust the the speed of each individual waypoint.

 

[MJQT]

Thank you for sharing your problems/fixes @Caribstu and cheers for the info @Speednut357 So many of these conversations can teach us all something.

The method I normally use is to narrow the track boundary and re-plot the AIW path, the editor will automatically recalculate the speed for the new narrower corner.

And just to be sure - when you say "re-plot", what do you mean? You enter spline mode, plot a new curve (in yellow), and click "create curve"?

A much more painful method is to manually adjust the the speed of each individual waypoint.

Out of curiosity, is this something you can do in the AIW editor GUI i.e. is there a field where you can type a new number for the speed value at a given waypoint? Or do you have to manually edit this value in the raw text file?

 

[Caribstu]

Thanks for sharing your fix so we can learn from your mistakes. The problem your having with Ai carrying too much speed is just the sort of problem we fix with the AIW editor. The method I normally use is to narrow the track boundary and re-plot the AIW path, the editor will automatically recalculate the speed for the new narrower corner. Another common method is to add a small S into the path on the approach to the corner, even the smallest swerve will cause the path to be calculated slower. A much more painful method is to manually adjust the the speed of each individual waypoint.

Question, I tend to run the boundary slightly over the curve to avoid getting STOP/GO penalties for just taking a bit too much curb. if I narrow the track boundary to slow the AI into a corner doesn't that cause exceeding track limit issues for the player if you're deemed to have cut the corner? Or are you only reducing the track boundary on the outside of the curve? What happens if you run wide, not leaving the track, do you then get a penalty if the boundary is narrow?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to figure out how that impacts racing.

Before i saw your reply I went back into BTB and edited the racing line to smooth the corner entry and apex which seems to have solved the problem somewhat. But there's still several AI crashing out so it's not 100% fixed. i'd like to try in AIW editor if I can figure out how to use it.

I've had a look and it's not user friendly. I'm lost already.

The section within the white square on the image attached needs to be edited, waypoints moved both lateral and horizontal. I can't even figure out how to pivot the camera around to view the waypoints on the horizontal. I can only see them from above. Let alone trying to edit them.

This is gonna be a steep learning curve i can tell.

 

[MJQT]

I've had a look and it's not user friendly. I'm lost already.

The section within the white square on the image attached needs to be edited, waypoints moved both lateral and horizontal. I can't even figure out how to pivot the camera around to view the waypoints on the horizontal. I can only see them from above. Let alone trying to edit them.

This is gonna be a steep learning curve i can tell.

You've loaded the file! Which is a great start

I would follow the "Getting Started" guide I included at the bottom of the description on this page: https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/guitarmaen-aiw-cam-editor.54199/ It describes how you select the first waypoint in the section you want to edit, press 's' on your keyboard to enter "spline mode" (i.e. curve re-drawing mode), then add more or less waypoints to the curve or reshape it, then click "Create Curve" when your curve follows the racing line you want. Don't worry about getting the curve perfect the first time, though... lots of trial and error and experimentation is the best way to learn how this works.

if I narrow the track boundary to slow the AI into a corner doesn't that cause exceeding track limit issues for the player if you're deemed to have cut the corner? Or are you only reducing the track boundary on the outside of the curve? What happens if you run wide, not leaving the track, do you then get a penalty if the boundary is narrow?

In the AIW, there are both AI corridors (which define where the AI think they can 'normally' drive and overtake and so on) and track limits/cut boundaries. You can modify each separately. In the editor, corridors are red and cut detections are green (but are sometimes hidden by 'far edges', which are brown). For an example, look at this post here.

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to figure out how that impacts racing.

No problem! Keep asking away. Happy to help! I'll probably learn something in the process. Ultimately, though, as I said above, the best way to learn how this software works and how to best modify AI lines is to use trial-and-error. Try various tweaks in the editor, then load them up in-game and see what happens.

Some of the info on this WIP website I created may also be helpful - especially if you're wondering about various "dos" and "don'ts".

Guide - AIW path, corridor tweaking - isiMotor2 Community AI Documentation

A community-made isiMotor2 AI documentation website

sim-racing.gitlab.io

 

[Speednut357]

Sorry I was confusing things. Wrong names for things. There are track boundaries for the Ai to follow and track limits for cut penalties. The help file does explain things. And it is 2D only. I recommend reading the information in the last link MJQT posted. It runs through the history of information we learned when we first started adjusting Ai lines.

 

[Caribstu]

Fantastic information fellas. Really appreciated.

I've built 17 tracks (all fictional) for a 20 round championship. It's something I've been working on for close to four years (between attempting my first track build to now, with two years off due to commitments) which includes 40 fictional liveries, 50 fine tuned Talent files, and a whole new Quali tyre. I'm very close to completion in terms of all the tweaks, updating compressed textures, adding in the ANI marshals etc.

For close competitive racing my focus has been on adjusting the Best/Worst/Ratio values in the AIW and the fine tuned RCD files. Now you guys have opened a fresh can of worms and i'll probably spend the next six months tweaking the AIW racing lines and breaking points for 17 tracks

 

[MJQT]

Out of curiosity, is this something you can do in the AIW editor GUI i.e. is there a field where you can type a new number for the speed value at a given waypoint? Or do you have to manually edit this value in the raw text file?

Just answering my own question for future reference with a past post of mine Thanks to Caribstu for reminding me I had posted this in the past.

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/wp_cheat.212452/post-3474022

As a quick note to explain the meaning of the wp_cheat parameter (to those like myself who stumble upon this thread in the future) it seems that the wp_cheat value is indeed (as Speednut suspected) a multiplier used to tweak the speeds through a waypoint. According to this comprehensive explanation of AIW files, anyhow. It seems it's calculated automatically as you edit the racing line, as Andreas says, but you could reduce the value after you've completed your edits to the racing line to slow the cars down at a given point. Note that I don't know for sure whether or not this value is used in SimBin sims -- for instance, the parameter is still present in AMS, but has no effect (see here).

 

[Caribstu]

You've loaded the file! Which is a great start

Ok.... now this comment makes sense.... because I've gone back into it to give it a try and can't even load the AIW file now.

(ignore that.... i just realized you have to double click the file to load it)

 

[MJQT]

Ok.... now this comment makes sense.... because I've gone back into it to give it a try and can't even load the AIW file now.

What happens when you try to load it?

 

[Caribstu]

What happens when you try to load it?

it's loading now.
I was clicking on load aiw, going into the directory, selecting the AIW, then clicking enter.

Didn't realize I had to double click the AIW file to load it.

Now i'm playing about with the waypoints, curve, etc..... after BTB and 3DsimEd this is not user friendly at all. Constantly referring back to the tutorial links you provided.

 

[Caribstu]

What would be helpful is a bullet point step by step to changing braking values.

 

[MJQT]

What would be helpful is a bullet point step by step to changing braking values.

To my knowledge, there isn't a specific way in the editor to change the braking values. I think you change the shape of the curve, and AI behaviour (lines, acceleration, braking) changes accordingly. @Speednut357 may know how to answer your question better, though.

 

[Speednut357]

Unfortunately, I have to work, but I will try to make a tutorial for this, as I feel it is a big hurdle for many people. I'm so old that when I was a kid, I had a Dos computer, so it seems pretty easy to me

In the meantime, here are a few pointers to help you get going.

To load an AIW file- click file at the top and click load AIW (+cam)
A window will open, it looks strange, but it is just your directory. Locate the AIW file you want and double-click. A new window will open showing details. Click the X to close this window.

Now you should see your track in red lines with a green line showing the AI path.

Use the arrow keys on the keyboard to move around the track.

Use the + and - keys to zoom in and out.

Use the mouse to click on the green line/waypoint to select an area to edit.

Hit the S key to enter spline mode.

Use X and C keys to move the point back and forth between waypoints.

Hold shift and use X and C keys to move the other point in spline mode.

Use Page up and Page down keys to adjust the curve.

Hold shift and use Page up and down to adjust the curve on the other point.


Ok, now the tricky bit. At the top of the screen, look for WP_WIDTH. It's brown. This is a button. The editing will cycle through the Ai path and track boundary lines if you click it. Some of the editing functions it cycles through don't seem to do anything. However, there are three we care about, AI path, left track boundary, and right track boundary. Just keep clicking until you see the line on the one you want to change.

Next, look on the left of the screen for a button called create curve. Edit a line, then click create curve. When you do this the speed of each waypoint is recalculated.

I like to move the track boundary in close to the Ai path, then redraw the ai path and because the boundary is close, the ai speed will be calculated at a slower speed.

You can, by the way, click on a waypoint and adjust its values manually. That's what all the numbers are, upper left. Just input the number and hit enter. This is problematic because you can easily introduce a big speed change, and Ai will crash.



I hope this is not too confusing. I will try to make a video on the subject to help everyone who gets to this point and give up because it is just too hard.