Trouble with Behringer Inuke 3000 DSP barely shakes in low frequencies

[Balroque]

I've been using 2xsmsl and 4 adx long time and getting strong feedback


I've got last week 2 Behringer Inuke 3000 DSP (second hand ones from UK)
As I don't have buttkicker advance yet, I connected them - one to 2x ADX and second one to 2x Clark AW339 and used tone generator to try them

I expected much stronger response then from SMSL with lower volume, but it is not happening. Both of them work and vibrate bass shakers but even less then SMSL.

15 Hz frequency you can feel only when put the hand on TST itself and raising up the volume. Most often reaching the red light on Inuke.
50-60 HZ frequencies are better, but still volume on Inuke 40% and when comparing with SMSL, smsl is stronger with lower volume.
youtube music - plays and you can hear it but again SMSL producing stronger output.

I've tried different sound cards in computer, even macbook and result is all the same.

I've tried to switch off crosover, PEQ filter, peak limit,.. - no difference

Running out of ideas - the only difference between SMSL and Inuke are signal cables and speakons. Could be that they are wrongly connected? Speakon using 1+ and 1- and signal cables pictures attached

The other problem which I developed during my testing, that I probably destroyed one of Clark. When I switched off all limits in Inuke and tried the difference volume and frequencies, when I used 50Hz, it was weak response from Clark, I raised to volume to approx. 70%, Inuke went into red light (still not orange lights on) for just second and the Clark changed suddenly the vibration into crackling and is almost no vibration now at all. Instead of vibration, it is just making crackling sound. When using youtube music, it plays it but instead of bass vibrations it makes just this crackling sound

 

[Ceolmor]

This doesn’t sound right. Never used the SMSL amp, but my 3000DSP is chucking out plenty of power (up to 900 Watts) for my LFE and BK Advances with dial at 12 o’clock.

Do you have a screen shot of the configuration page in the Remote software? What wattage does it say you are using?

Have you checked that the mixer in your sound card software if not turned down? I discovered some of the mixer sliders were down a bit in my Asus DGX mixer.

 

[Balroque]

here is the screenshot

as you can see windows bar shows 100% volume, all options in Inuke off, peak limiter setup to 50 watts for ADX at this time and volume knob on Inuke turned to 11.30 o'clock. 12 o'clock is red light on.
You can hear and feel ADX very slightly.

Same configuration with SMSL (it is 160w max) is 2-3x more load and vibrations at 12 o'clock as well.
It seems that Behringer is sending to tactile transducers the power, as it damaged the Clark before, but not the signal (it doesn't make a sense to me)

(Have you checked that the mixer ..)
I tried different sound cards, even macbook and every where all same. Also it wouldn't do anything with SMSL either, would it? as it is same configuration

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, seems weird for normal usage expected....
Lets try to find the issue...

In the DSP try to load INI DATA (recall)
I think this reverts the amp to default.

Then set the amp to 4ohm (it wont keep showing this)
Set the wattage limit required
Set to Dual Mono (in this case you can set different settings per channel)
The crossover should be 0dB as default (this alters the OUTPUT gain it can go to +12dB )
Dials on amp fascia typically 12pm-2pm is enough (this alters INPUT gain from source)

Test 40hz as this a peak frequency for many models
Test frequency sweeps
You may not get much response at 15Hz on smaller/cheaper units

TST339 should give decent low end performance in 20-40Hz maybe not so much below 20Hz

 

[Ceolmor]

We’re you running the ADX ok at 160 watts with the SMSL? If so, can you run the iNuke at 160w? How is it then?

 

[Mr Latte]

*ADX are rated for continuous 50W RMS
Giving them 160W is crazy

ADX specs claim to operate from 20Hz-100Hz
TST 339 specs claim to operate from 10Hz-800Hz

 

[Balroque]

Hi, seems weird for normal usage expected....
Lets try to find the issue...

In the DSP try to load INI DATA (recall)
I think this reverts the amp to default.

Then set the amp to 4ohm (it wont keep showing this)
Set the wattage limit required
Set to Dual Mono (in this case you can set different settings per channel)
The crossover should be 0dB as default (this alters the OUTPUT gain it can go to +12dB )
Dials on amp fascia typically 12pm-2pm is enough (this alters INPUT gain from source)

Test 40hz as this a peak frequency for many models
Test frequency sweeps
You may not get much response at 15Hz on smaller/cheaper units

TST339 should give decent low end performance in 20-40Hz maybe not so much below 20Hz

thanks for the help guys
@Mr. Latte DSP in initial mode and all the other things as requested ( I tried this before as well)
It does the "decent" response in 40Hz, but still not as big as from SMSL?
I know small unit as ADX don't do much at 15 Hz but I would still expect the response way stronger compare to the other amp

@Ceolmor I have never run SMSL at full power. btw you can't see how much wattage u use there are is no display

P.S. as I described sound coming now out of one Clark. Do you think I put it to death?

 

[Mr Latte]

What you want to determine is if the amps you bought are faulty.
Have you switched to a different soundcard since using the SMSL.
I ask this as different cards output can vary and I think from my own comparisons USB cards can output lower than say an internal PCI based card.

We don't want windows at 100% output from the soundcard and then go ballistic with the iNuke front dials. This will create distortion/clipping as we put too much gain on the source signal. Its then coming in too hot from the pre-amp stage before the main output amplification.

It is important to try the amp at @12pm dial position. Most guys seem to use 12-2pm

You can set the crossover gain to a higher level for each channel to do comparisons.
Try +3 +6 +9 +12.

Apparently, every 3dB is effective to 2x the energy.
So you could have 12pm position on the front dials be as strong as you want it to be using the most suited +dB on the crossover section. Important keep the dials on the front at 12pm for this test and increase in steps from +3 to what you feel you need. Ensure before starting you have the wattage limiter set to suit the tactile being used.

The SMSL amps have a seriously high distortion level (10% THD) but this is likely more apparent at max wattage and with the units you have you shouldn't of needed to go that high.

I think if you increase the dB within the crossover for the iNuke you will find it come more to what you experienced with the SMSL regards felt strength/energy.

The TST thermal protection may of kicked in and it may still be okay.
Try running some brown noise through it but please set the digital wattage limiter in iNuke to protect your units.

 

[Mr Latte]

When you have amp settings in place then save as a profile.
The iNuke DSP amps will revert to the last used profile on power up.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I had my 3000DSP driving an ADX and it was plenty powerful. I set my volume to 1:00 with peak wattage at 50 within DSP and the ADX was giving out plenty of energy. There is definitely something wrong here.

 

[Mr Latte]

This may help, took some time out to do this....
For wattage control we enter the ohm rating and then alter the Vp value.



In the first example for the crossover section, you can see it is set to 70Hz.
Yet it has 0dB at 100Hz. Example 2 with different settings has 100Hz at a lower strength of -3dB even though it has a higher crossover setting.

Notice also I have for this example only the "High Pass Filter" set to OFF for channel A yet for channel B I have it set to ON with a "Butterworth" filter and with 6dB slope.

I highlight this to show that with the filter OFF and using an additional 5dB gain we see that the lowest frequencies are being boosted more due to the slope. With a small unit this will help increase the ability to feel any effects better below 40Hz.

Please compare example 2 to example 1. We can see that 30Hz on example 1 is @ +4dB yet in example 2 and with Channel B (blue) 30Hz is @ -2dB. Thats a 6dB difference for this frequency.

Playing around with this and just reading what the frequency chart shows will help get some more performance from your units. Of course with iNuke we can also do much more regards tuning down to individual frequency (boost or trimming). This we do more in the EQ stages but for now I hope this at least helps with some understanding and setting the amp to suit specific models.

If you are not getting good output from the unit with these settings (with A or B channels) then I think perhaps the amp has an issue.

You can increase beyond 5dB but really you shouldn't have to.

 

[Balroque]

Thanks a lot for all your inputs especially Mr. Latte.

I was quite busy last couple days, but I will test all of it later this week and let you know

I also got in touch with local hifi shop, just to try inuke in there. If they could try it and find out if is the problem in the unit itself or somewhere else.

@Mr. Latte I tried brown sound for Clark, but it didn't help. Im trying to contact Clark company, lets see

 

[Balroque]

I finally got the time to try setup Mr. Latte suggested, thanks again for your effort and time Mr. Latte spent to help me out.

You can set the crossover gain to a higher level for each channel to do comparisons.
Try +3 +6 +9 +12.

It has the impact and you can feel significant difference when changing the gain
Using 40 Hz on Szynalski tone generator

lease compare example 2 to example 1. We can see that 30Hz on example 1 is @ +4dB yet in example 2 and with Channel B (blue) 30Hz is @ -2dB. Thats a 6dB difference for this frequency.

Playing around with this

I had to read this like a five times to start to understand it, but I got your point

I played with different frequencies with Szynalski/tone generator for more then hour and also I played with sound card different volume while keeping Inuke at 12pm all the time. I can get decent response 40 Hz plus, not as much bellow 30Hz.

So it seems there is nothing wrong with Inukes (?)

HOWEVER while Im using simvibe and when I compare setup with SMSL vs Inukes, the feelling in reality is getting much stronger response from SMSL and even more clear and faster then from Inukes, which is really weird. I had for long time setup in Simvibe for bumpers, engine, suspension, etc between -20db to -12dB. With Inukes I can go almost zero dB to get some strong response.

I took Inuke to two places
- into sound workshop to Paul, who is repairing amps and other stuff for guys on tours, like real amps 20 kg's weight. He has measured the Inuke and according to him, is nothing wrong with it. He connected it to oscilloscope and it was delivering approx 600-900W. Sinusoidal wave was ok, nothing special compare to professional analog machines, but as expected, feathering in peaks. (according to him).
- hi fi shop, tried it on big decent speakers and no issue as well.

The TST thermal protection may of kicked in and it may still be okay.
Try running some brown noise through it but please set the digital wattage limiter in iNuke to protect your units.

Paul opened the Clark to check it out and the coil was totally burnt and quite smelly as well. He pointed me to some other guy and he replaced the coil and Clark works now again. Good experience, but not cheap ($100 for repair). The strange thing is when I burnt it, and obviously that was my fault, I put Inuke out of limits and turned the knob about 2-3pm for 1-2 seconds. Clark was barely shaking (15Hz), the orange led on Inuke was just one one and red led light poped up.

So Im going to probably give up. (I even reinstalled computer). The last thing in my mind is to get either other Behringer to borrow from someone, try some other cables, get the buttkicker advance and try it with it.
If it won't change, I will sell inukes and probably keep SMSL, however it sounds really strange.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

SMSL is great underrated amp. I have replaced it with Crown XLS1002 as didn't like the idea of constantly blowing noisy active fan on INuke, and it kicks super strong below 30Hz, just tried 10Hz using online tone generator and my seat was shaking like crazy.
See if you can borrow it to test, to me it was improvement over SMSL in all areas.

 

[Mr Latte]

The SMSL amp is good for the money, if it wasn't I wouldn't of been recommending it for several years.

However, what is the issue here, you now found your amps are not faulty (thats good news) but your still not that confident in the iNuke controls, especially after not setting the wattage limiter and what has happened.

The images shown of the charts was to help, yeah its confusing at the start but when you grasp how the chart works then it becomes very simple. If you asked more would be explained...


Now seriously.....
Do you think for one moment with the level of control the iNuke delivers that it cant match the SMSL regards the input/output of the source signal?

Your perspective from what you done appears to state to people here that the SMSL amp is better than an iNuke. Come now, this is based on what seems a rather flawed test. Yet you don't ask, how do I get the most out of my ADX as it feels stronger on the SMSL yet make a conclusion for yourself already?

We can easily adapt the input stage and output stage of the amp to suit what you want if you would like to have a sensation more like that of the SMSL. Do you, okay no problems. Your own report conflicts against what others with different tactile say in how moving to iNuke improved they're tactile.

Keep in mind more punch, does not necessarily mean better control or more detailed tactile effects. Yet many people seem to base tactile on the limits of the strength for peak frequencies the various units have.

Previous Help
Please keep in mind I only referred as an example to increase the "Gain Control" in the "Crossover" Yet you mentioned keeping the input level at 12pm position as stated. It could be set a bit higher (makes a massive difference) as you can balance the input level so that it is below distortion/feedback level (red light).

The easy way to understand this is like changing your sound card output from 100% - 80% you are changing the input level going into the amp by doing so. That will make a huge difference to the output going to the tactile units. The iNuke, unlike many amps, lets the person control the input level of the source (amps dials) as such amps in musical professional circumstances can have multiple input sources/instruments or audio hardware all with rather different (higher/lower) levels of output of their own connecting into the amp. Such control is to enable balancing instruments/hardware to allow the user to increase/decrease one input level gain to the other if necessary. We dont of course need this so much in Sims as our source is generally a single soundcard. Yet I can assure you that different soundcards can have varying outputs, USB in particular seem lower in output than internal units. I have even compared the Asus U5 and Creative Omini favouring the Creative Omni.

5x Energy Increase To Hz (+15dB)
Your 40Hz doesnt feel as good eh?

If desired we can change TOTALLY the output characteristics of the amp down to how individual frequencies are output. We do this with the PEQ section of the software. Here we can fine tune to get the best out of whatever tactile unit/model is being used. It is here also that we can control things like reverb in installation/materials. Controls and things we can do that once set are matched to the units being used and the hardware installation. Show me another amp that can do this, even close to the iNukes price?
Yes we have to learn what and how to apply such but we have a community here, people can ask for help or guidance but also share their own attempts or progress.

Please note their are experts in home cinema audio that use these amps to power very high-end subwoofers and multiple tactile in their fancy seats. Its a fact that in such communities these amps have been scrutineered over, dissected and went over in every detail by some very clever people who know a heck of a lot more about audio than I do. There are threads I can link that go into very high detail regards the amps performances and abilities in regards to bass roll-off and control. Yet for years people have been using these and continue to use them based on the performance and features with the level of customising they bring.


SMSL Its got Wallop But This Brings Issues
Their is something about the SMSL regards its pre-amp stage. This is the stage of the amplifier that deals with the input/source. What we have here appears as amps with different characters but while the SMSL has little control the iNuke is a powerhouse for control.

From what some have described recently and using BK Mini with this SMSL amp it appears to apply a high input gain. This helps in the pre-amp stage and to have a strong amplification =from even low volume come from the unit. One reason I think SMSL has this is the amps they use have a woeful 10% distortion level, yet because the input level is high, people will not use the amp close to its max.

The Factors:

• SSW/Simvibe Effects Output Level
• Soundcard Output Level
• Amp Pre-Amp Stage Gain
• Amps Volume Output

However, some BK users stating to me they have issues with piston pang and the SMSL amp.
An issue with SSW is the 40Hz used mainly for default effects (most people use default with SSW unlike Simvibe) and these use a high amplitude of (0dB). We then have the characteristics of the SMSL also applying a high input level meaning what is coming into the amp is too hot in dB. The same would apply with Simvibe if the output mixer dB control was set too high.

A simple resolve to help this as the SMSL amp has no controls is to reduce the soundcard level output from say 100% - 80% . This is reducing the level of the signal that is actually amplified and this can contribute to eliminating the piston pang.

I keep saying that great tactile is not just about the wallop or bang.
It's bringing the detail in various frequencies and combining effects that we can sense and feel each effect when it is operating. Having refinement and control from the lowest to the highest felt frequencies.


My own experiences:

• BK Advance is good down to just below 20Hz
• BK Mini are good down to about 30Hz
• BK LFE is good down to below 10Hz
• BK Concert I have to yet compare in detail to the LFE but has loads of potential too
• Most common sub $100 units are good to 30Hz at best.

Anyone talking about 10Hz sensations if they use units like the common models, Aura Pro, ADX or even a BK Mini haven't a clue what they are feeling. As these units will not output in anything resembling "strong energy" with @ 10Hz used as the fundamental frequency.

People get confused thinking if I set 10Hz that's all or just what I will feel, which isn't the case, NO, not at all. I have covered frequencies, center values and harmonics in the past.

 

[Mr Latte]

SMSL is great underrated amp. I have replaced it with Crown XLS1002 as didn't like the idea of constantly blowing noisy active fan on INuke, and it kicks super strong below 30Hz, just tried 10Hz using online tone generator and my seat was shaking like crazy.
See if you can borrow it to test, to me it was improvement over SMSL in all areas.

I can have multiple iNuke amps running and they are quieter than my PC in fact almost silent they are so quiet. Why is this Andrew, simply because modding/repalcing the fan takes 15 mins

Time to let it go......

The Crown is a good amp but sorry the lack of controls make it much inferior for the potential in using high end tactile, user customisation or installation control. The iNuke DSP while still expensive in some regions (yet can be much cheaper than Crown) is still, the best amp for the job.

Getting the most out of it, comes with learning how to use it in the level of control it offers. Yet most owners of them don't bother to seek to do this. Some fail to even pay attention to the manual to learn the general controls.

 

[Balroque]

Your perspective from what you done appears to state to people here that the SMSL amp is better than an iNuke.

Im far away to say SMSL is better then Inuke and I know many ppl using them to their satisfaction. There is no doubt, about more control ..
I still believe there has to be something wrong with the setup. Im not getting even close (it means average) response as from SMSL. I just tried AC ( with my presets from SMSL) with Inukes. And there is no response at all. I have to move all the sliders in simvibe up almost to 0dB to get some response and then I start to bounce Inuke's red limit with still quite average (from strong point of view) response. Fine tuning is nice and Im keen to tune it as fine as possible, but first I have get something to work with. Inuke is setup for 12pm, sound card is 90-95% volume, simvibe overall intensity 0dB, effects vary. 3 sound cards, tried them all.
Im glad for your help and if you have any suggestions Im happy to follow your lead.

I had my 3000DSP driving an ADX and it was plenty powerful. I set my volume to 1:00 with peak wattage at 50 within DSP and the ADX was giving out plenty of energy. There is definitely something wrong here.

Thanks Hiro, as you have ADX with Inuke as well, I would like to try copy your setup for simvibe and levels for volume out of sound card and then compare your and mine feeling out of it. Lets say some strong one.

SMSL is great underrated amp. I have replaced it with Crown XLS1002 as didn't like the idea of constantly blowing noisy active fan on INuke, and it kicks super strong below 30Hz, just tried 10Hz using online tone generator and my seat was shaking like crazy.

thanks Andrew, but Im not going to buy another amplifier until I find out where is the catch
Inukes noise was quite simple reduced by Noctua fans and now they are almost silent

 

[Mr Latte]

So first thing I would ask is for you to post screens of ALL your iNuke DSP settings and features....

If I ask for you to tell me how much actual wattage are you sending the ADX with the SMSL?
In comparison, you are limiting this to 50w with the iNuke. We assume this at least is quite accurate but what if we gave it some more?

To fully understand each, we would need to measure the wattage output to determine what each actually is outputting yes? This can be done with multimeters etc but the answer is not going to change how each differs in feel with the settings you have.

So why in your comparison do you assume that even at a basic level the output wattage is the same?
We cant look at an amp and say mmmm its 160w so 50% volume dial is then 80 watt and from that go just above a 1/4 to determine we are at 50watt. Amps do not work this way.

You obviously however want more coming out of the iNuke.
So best to first show the settings you have and we look into things more.

 

[Balroque]

thanks Mr. Latte
here is the post screen from Inuke and some other from win setup
Also pictures comparing settup with Inuke and SMSL to get similar feedback in AC


Can this be the point?
SMSL doesn't have any limit, so when I have it on lets say 2pm and getting reasonable response, actually Im over tuning 50W ADX, compare to Inuke where limit is set to 50W, and then even with 1pm knob it won't me allow to go over?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi again,
You didnt show all settings for the iNuke screens, so I dont know all the settings you may be using in PEQ DEQ etc. I was wanting to see what you had set for all options within the DSP controls to possible better advise.

Watts Wot?
The variation in each amp you feel is more than likely a wattage factor and how the SMSL may use a high input level within its pre-amp stage. Meaning it has lots of power with even just a little dial control.

The volume knobs on amps may not always work in the manner people think. For instance, the last 1/3rd of rotation does not mean the amp is only using 67% power and still has 33% more power available in its output. "Z Review" I believe covered this in this video with the SMSL (i haven't watched again but think its this video).

Will Most Use More Than 50Watt?
The vast majority of people using ADX tactile units will be doing so with similar SMSL amps or the cheapo subwoofer amps from Parts Express are very popular and these are likely in the 100-160 watt range.

You could try the ADX set to 75watt limit as I doubt doing this would be drving them any higher/harder than what those popular amp options are. However as mentioned before try increasing the dB Gain in the Crossover with the 50W limit and you should see the "OUTPUT" meter levels increase.

Test 1
50 Watt Limit
Front dials at 1pm
Crossover Gain DSP (+6dB up to +9dB)
Keep an eye on the "Output Levels" in Crossover Screen to see if they are peaking


Test 2
75 Watt Limit
Front dials at 12pm
Crossover Gain DSP (+3dB up to +6dB)
Keep an eye on the "Output Levels" in Crossover Screen to see if they are peaking