Valve Index or Oculus Rift S (and motion sickness)

[Rainman2020]

Hi, my name is Randy Flowers. 58 year old kid in Dallas Texas. This is my very first ever sim racing forum post! Sorry, it's a long post that has been building up for the past month! Thanks for the help in advance

About a month ago, i saw by mistake a Jimmy Broadbent video of him racing a 60s grand prix car around spa and he was wearing a VR headset, and i was instantly pulled into the sim racing rabbit hole! OH NO!!! My main desire is to get into sim racing using VR, and i have never yet used VR at all for anything.

I do get motion sick as a rule in life. I get sick in a car backseat, but not if i am holding onto the steering wheel and driving. I am super concerned that i will get motion sick and it will keep me from playing in VR. So, i am thinking of doing all the normal stuff, using a fan, doing it in short stints and stopping immediately when feeling sick, using a wrist band TENS unit thing like the Emeterm electrode stimulator, etc, but i am still concerned that it may be hard for me to 'get my VR legs'.

I am thinking of going straight for the Valve Index so that i can run at 120fps/hz and hopefully that will be my best chance of being able to handle VR and not get sick.

I found Jeff Ford at www.fegpc.net (who has built a ton of sim racing rigs), and he is helping me put my computer upgrade, rig and sim gear together and building it for me! He actually recommends the Oculus Rift S as his favorite VR headset, and he says that preventing motion sickness is much more about keeping the Rift S at a constant 80fps than it is about getting the fps up to 120fps. I would definitely rather spend only $400 on a Rift S if that will work great for me, but i have read forums that swear by the Valve Index as having solved their motion sickness issues (when they were coming from a Rift), and it seems like the superior headset for graphics/sound and comfort.

I know i need a computer that is capable of running either the Valve at a steady 120fps or the Rift S at a steady 80fps, and Jeff assures me that the following rig he is putting together will do that...it is:

i5-9600KF OC'd to 4.7-5.2 (he says done this way it is comparable to the i9-9900K for much less money, he adds the OC for free)
RTX 2070 Super (he will OC this also)
16 GB DDR4 (he will OC this also)

As a backup, if i do get motion sick with VR and just can't get past it, then i will be able to smoke a new 1440p/144hz 32 inch monitor i am also getting, so i can use that as my backup and still be able to Sim Race, but i WANT TO USE VR!

Note that i am wanting a really good VR resolution/graphics too and do want to be able to see the dash board numbers clearly, etc. I have also heard that the graphics are much better with the Valve, that the Rift S sound is terrible (do Rift S owners all play with separate headphones on?), and that the Valve is much more comfortable.

A final note is that i wear glasses (John Lennon types), and wondering how that will affect the Valve or the Rift S.

So...my questions are:

1) Which headset would you use between the Valve Index and Rift S and why?
2) Will using the Valve Index at 120fps be a big help to possible motion sickness compared to the Rift S at 80fps?
3) Will i actually be able to run the Valve Index at 120fps, or even the Rift S at 80fps, with the above basic computer rig?
4) How good will the graphics be on the Valve Index vs the Rift S (and will the above rig be able to run the graphics at good looking settings in VR and out of VR)?
4) Will i be able to wear John Lennon style glasses with both the Valve and Rift S just fine?

Thanks!

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Further note, does the Valve actually have a lot of glare like some reviews i have read about it?

And, how big an advantage is it for Rift S to have inside out tracking and not requiring light houses like the Index does (and do i just need ONE light house with the Index if i only use it for Sim Racing?). Seems a lot simpler to not have to deal with the light houses that the Index needs.

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Here is a great thread talking about most of these questions:

 

[Locoblade]

If you can wait until the autumn then the HP Reverb G2 wil be coming out that promises to be a very good sim headset at £600/$600 with higher resolution than either Rift S or Valve Index (or any other sub £1k headset).

Not sure about glasses wearing with either but I couldn't wear glasses with an Oculus CV1 I borrowed, but can just about with a Samsung Odyssey WMR headset I bought secondhand (although I generally switch to contact lenses if I'm doing more than a short session).

As for motion sickness, I've only recently started using VR and have had to go through the aclimatisation process. My first experience with VR sim racing was with a Rift CV1 at a friends house a year or so ago which made me feel really ill really quickly but at the same time I could see the benefits of it in terms of immersion and feeling connected with the car. A month or so ago I borrowed the same headset to see if I could acclimatise for sim racing before I bought my own and to start with I couldnt do more than 3-4 laps without feeling queazy and needed several hours to fully recover. However, just doing 30-45 minutes a day in a few short stints over the course of a week pretty much acclimatised me and now a month later I can do 2 hour long stints on most tracks without feeling any ill effects at all, like an RD organised race at Brands Hatch this weekend where I probably did 30-60 minutes warm-up practice beforehand with the odd 5 minute break for refreshments etc, then 30 minutes official practice straight into 20 minute qualifying straight into an hour long race. If you do find you struggle, here's a few things you can try that I found useful:

• Make sure the room is well ventilated and not too warm, maybe try a desk fan blowing on you if you still start feeling hot and clammy.
• Make sure your detail settings are low enough that you get a good frame rate, ultra high detail settings etc are generally pointless in VR anyway due to the relative lack of clarity compared to a monitor. Pick games like AC or iRacing that are easier on the hardware if necessary.
• Have a look at the game settings and see if you can "lock the horizon", this locks the VR headset view to maintain a steady horizon rather than be locked more to the car with the outside world moving about. This setting seems to feel more natural to your brain (because normally you'd be looking at the outside world that your neck/eyes/brain would naturally stabilise) because for me driving without it feels akin to being on a boat at sea watching the horizon bob up and down.
• Try to remind yourself to look through the corner as far as you can see to the exit point rather than focussing on whats going on right in front of the car. It's good track driving practice anyway but it also seems to help reduce the sense of speed and motion in VR.
• Try and drive without any superimposed driving data like laptimes etc floating in front of you to start with because they move with your head unlike the car interior which can be disorientating.
• Pick a track combo that's relatively flat with little sudden change of direction (slow tight chicanes like the old bus stop at Spa got me to start with) and pick a car with benign handling so you're not being thrown around too much. Also avoid high kerbs that tip the car up on two wheels etc.
• If you do crash, close your eyes ASAP until the car's stopped spinning etc, hitting a tyre barrier head on still turns my stomach slightly if I watch it happen as my body is execting a jolt that doesn't happen.
• Finally, when you start feeling a bit sick during the acclimatisation process, stop and wait until you feel OK before going again, don't try and push through it.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I haven't tried the Index so can't really comment on it, but I did have the Rift S a few weeks and if you're prone to motion sickness I'd highly suggest you look elsewhere. It's by no means a bad headset but it does have a low refresh rate and as soon as you drop slightly below the minimum rate you might suffer from mad stutter, and if you where not sick already due to the refresh rate you sure will be when it stutters.

I have a pimax artisan and besides having a MUCH bigger FOV than both the Rift S and the Index, it's also been a much smoother experience than the Rift S. I don't know what is technically different between the two in this regard but despite running my pimax at 120hz the image still feels smooth at 50-55 fps. But I've got a strong stomach for VR.

Regarding the glare in the Index, yes it's a thing and one of the primary reasons I disregarded getting one and decided on a pimax artisan instead.
This video shows a comparison between the two:

Edit: I forgot to mention...
The Rift S was quite annoying to use with my glasses, had to spend some time faffing about adjusting the glasses and the headset to get to a point where I both had a clear image and the glasses wasn't pressing and hurting somewhere.
The pimax has been brilliant in this regard, much more comfortable to use with glasses.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

If you can wait until the autumn then the HP Reverb G2 wil be coming out that promises to be a very good sim headset at £600/$600 with higher resolution than either Rift S or Valve Index (or any other sub £1k headset).

Not sure about glasses wearing with either but I couldn't wear glasses with an Oculus CV1 I borrowed, but can just about with a Samsung Odyssey WMR headset I bought secondhand (although I generally switch to contact lenses if I'm doing more than a short session).

As for motion sickness, I've only recently started using VR and have had to go through the aclimatisation process. My first experience with VR sim racing was with a Rift CV1 at a friends house a year or so ago which made me feel really ill really quickly but at the same time I could see the benefits of it in terms of immersion and feeling connected with the car. A month or so ago I borrowed the same headset to see if I could acclimatise for sim racing before I bought my own and to start with I couldnt do more than 3-4 laps without feeling queazy and needed several hours to fully recover. However, just doing 30-45 minutes a day in a few short stints over the course of a week pretty much acclimatised me and now a month later I can do 2 hour long stints on most tracks without feeling any ill effects at all, like an RD organised race at Brands Hatch this weekend where I probably did 30-60 minutes warm-up practice beforehand with the odd 5 minute break for refreshments etc, then 30 minutes official practice straight into 20 minute qualifying straight into an hour long race. If you do find you struggle, here's a few things you can try that I found useful:

• Make sure the room is well ventilated and not too warm, maybe try a desk fan blowing on you if you still start feeling hot and clammy.
• Make sure your detail settings are low enough that you get a good frame rate, ultra high detail settings etc are generally pointless in VR anyway due to the relative lack of clarity compared to a monitor. Pick games like AC or iRacing that are easier on the hardware if necessary.
• Have a look at the game settings and see if you can "lock the horizon", this locks the VR headset view to maintain a steady horizon rather than be locked more to the car with the outside world moving about. This setting seems to feel more natural to your brain (because normally you'd be looking at the outside world that your neck/eyes/brain would naturally stabilise) because for me driving without it feels akin to being on a boat at sea watching the horizon bob up and down.
• Try to remind yourself to look through the corner as far as you can see to the exit point rather than focussing on whats going on right in front of the car. It's good track driving practice anyway but it also seems to help reduce the sense of speed and motion in VR.
• Try and drive without any superimposed driving data like laptimes etc floating in front of you to start with because they move with your head unlike the car interior which can be disorientating.
• Pick a track combo that's relatively flat with little sudden change of direction (slow tight chicanes like the old bus stop at Spa got me to start with) and pick a car with benign handling so you're not being thrown around too much. Also avoid high kerbs that tip the car up on two wheels etc.
• If you do crash, close your eyes ASAP until the car's stopped spinning etc, hitting a tyre barrier head on still turns my stomach slightly if I watch it happen as my body is execting a jolt that doesn't happen.
• Finally, when you start feeling a bit sick during the acclimatisation process, stop and wait until you feel OK before going again, don't try and push through it.

Excellent tips!

 

[cfischer9009]

Lots of stories of people having less or solving motion sickness from adding motion (done right). In my experience an active belt tensioner would have the biggest effect if money is tight.

Easy for me to say though... I love going down the rabbit hole and building it myself. I have an sfx style rig and I would say a strong belt tensioner is way more immersive (minimize nausea).

Funny I feel compelled to mention I get down to Dallas at least every year to see the family, but I don't have my rig down there so I can't offer you a ride. If you're ever in the Denver area let me know and you can try some stuff out.

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

I have an Index and love it.

The advice you have received about maintaining a steady frame rate being more important than a higher frame rate is , in my experience, correct. But that's no reason not to go with the Index - you can choose 80, 90, 120 or 144 FPS on the fly in settings.

I run almost exclusively 90 FPS as I can't sense the improvement at 120 and maintaining 120 is 'challenging' in modern sims (i9 9900k 5.0Ghz OC and OC 2080Ti).

Resolution is better on the Index so reading car dash is not a problem. Monitors look better than any VR but the VR immersion outweighs that and the Index is good enough (it's really very good) that you soon accept what you see as, well - real! Glare is not an issue.

My advice would be don't wear your glasses - it won't be comfortable and you won't be able to get the VR lenses close to your eyes and this might increase the likelihood of motion sickness. I tried wearing my glasses at first and it was a nightmare - headaches and mild motion sickness. You can get prescription inserts for all headsets now from a variety of vendors - I got mine from VROptician and am very happy with them. Mine arrived about a month after I got my Index and since then I've not had headaches or motion sickness.

The hardware you have suggested will work but you'll have to compromise with settings. In VR you always need to compromise with settings. The Rift is easier to drive than the Index as you would expect - less pixels and less frames. There is no hardware configuration that will allow you to race on all sims, in all condition, with any size of field. It all depends on how much you are prepared to compromise - and how much £$€ you are willing to invest.

BTW - my backstory is similar to yours - stumbled across VR Sim Racing and immediately needed to try it. 18 months and a few grand down the line I have no regrets - the experience is amazing!

 

[Rainman2020]

Thanks for all the comments!
The comments about glasses are particularly helpful, especially the one about VROptician and custom VR prescription inserts, would never have known about that one!

It continues to sound like the Valve Index is the one to go for if prone to motion sickness

As GagarynGaribald said, i have stumbled into a massive rabbit hole and there is a LOT to learn before i order everything for real (right now, haven't built the new computer yet, nor have i ordered any sim racing gear or VR headset yet)

Keep the comments coming. This seems to be the best forum to ask these sorts of questions about all aspects of Sim racing, glad i found it!

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Related, as pertains to motion sickness and VR, would one of these wristbands really work? I have read sim racing forum posts that swear they really helped them have no nausea when in VR.

EmeTerm Motion Sickness WristBand

EmeTerm is a safe and effective motion sickness bands that prevents and relieves nausea and vomiting induced by motion sickness (while in a car, a boat, or a plane) and morning sickness (during pregnancy) Feature: 【FDA Approved】: EmeTerm motion sickness bracelet provides physical therapy based...

www.emeterm.com

OR

Reliefband®

Reliefband® is drug free, non-drowsy, FDA cleared wearable technology for the prevention and treatment of nausea and vomiting associated with motion sickness, morning sickness, chemotherapy and as an adjunct to antiemetics in post surgery.

www.reliefband.com

I am probably going to order the Emeterm one, that is the one other forum posts had mentioned.

Randy

 

[Locoblade]

I suspect they can help (very basic passive versions that put pressure on certain points in the wrist certainly used to help for me as a kid with travel sickness) but to be honest if I were you I'd at least try going through the aclimatisation process "naturally" first because for a lot of people like myself the sickness is very real to start with but within a week or two of short sessions it ceases to be an issue, at which point you'd have wasted $100 on something you no longer need. However, if like a small minority you just can't get used to it and are still feeling it after a month or so then try the bands or other techniques etc.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Something worth thinking about with the prescription lenses for VR (I had lenses for the Rift S) is that while they fix the visuals inside the headset and remove the pain of having to deal with glasses while inside the headset, if your vision is very bad like mine, it actually became a chore when jumping in and out of the headset.
My prescription is -5.75 on both eyes, so whenever I took my headset off to do something outside of VR, which happens quite frequently at least in my case, I had to fumble around finding my glasses and putting them on, even if just for a few seconds to get something done, then take them off again.
If your vision isn't that bad so you can get stuff done without glasses then it's prob a non-issue.

To me though, I'll take the Pimax with glasses over any other headset with prescription lenses every day, because the glasses are a non issue with that headset.

A few more comments that I could not be bothered typing on my phone yesterday...

You asked about the lighthouse tracking vs inside out.
Inside out is extremely convenient, and I found it worked extremely well too.
I've seen people say that they find lighthouse tracking to be even more precise than inside out, which ofc would be beneficial as far as motion sickness goes, but I haven't really experienced any issues with either, that said as mentioned I have a strong VR stomach so maybe I'm just not sensitive to the difference, but technically lightouses could be another factor that helps with the sickness.

I don't know if this is possible with other VR headsets that use the lighthouses, but in my case when I purchased the Pimax I actually started out using it without lighthouses. It has built in 3DOF tracking using gyroscope and accelerometers, and it worked perfectly fine for me.
The difference being that 3DOF tracking instead of 6DOF (lighthouses and inside out are 6DOF), your head is fixed in one place, but you can freely rotate in all directions to look side to side and up/down.
So you cannot lean forward for instance, and this CAN be disorientating and lead to motion sickness if you do try to lean forward and nothing happens ingame. Having said that, when in a racing sim you are simulating being strapped in a seat with belts, so you wouldn't actually move back and forth or side to side much at all.
I found the 3DOF tracking to do the job well enough for simracing, I only added lighthouses because I want the ability to experience other types of games as well.

As for running games at 120 FPS vs 80 FPS with the computer specs you mentioned above, the answer is that "it depends"....
I have a very similarly specced PC, an i5 9600K with a 2070 Super and 32GB RAM.
For starters, it all depends on the settings you set ingame, as mentioned before it's better to lower the graphical settings to make sure you have a solid high FPS.
But, VR headsets has a technology that allows it to double the framerate if the FPS drops below the limit, so for the Rift S you could crank up the graphics some and it'd result in the game rendering at 40 FPS, but the Oculus software would take every frame and show it twice so inside the headset you'd still see 80 FPS. And it can jump between doing this and just displaying the native framerate while you play, so if you get FPS dips below 80 it'll still seem smooth.
Now here is the massive difference between the Rift S and the Pimax for me, because if the FPS dropped even slightly below 80 inside the headset, it was very stuttery and bad, I once did a race on iRacing with 55-60 FPS in the Rift S and it was really uncomfortable even for my strong stomach, whereas with the Pimax for some reason, this just works fine for me.

I can't say enough good things about my Pimax headset tbh, within the space of a month I had the Oculus Rift S, Quest, HTC Vive Cosmos and the Pimax Artisan at home testing them extensively with racing sims, and the Pimax blows the others out of the water.
That said, it's not as slick a software experience as the others, it really does scream "chinese startup company" with odd english translations in their software and such, but I personally will take that for the actual VR experience it delivers.

 

[metalnwood]

If it's between just the index or the rift S then then index all day. I am not loooking to save you any money so I dont see any good reason to go rift over the index.

Many points already covered before. I do notice 120hz over 90 but cant tell you that it will help with motion sickness.

One thing worth mentioning is that the index has the adjustable ipd and for some people the fixed lens distance of the rift is a no go. It was for me so I gave the rift to the kids.

If you were to have motion sickness you really dont want to deal with eyestrain if the IPD will effect you thta way as well.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

One thing worth mentioning is that the index has the adjustable ipd and for some people the fixed lens distance of the rift is a no go. It was for me so I gave the rift to the kids.

If you were to have motion sickness you really dont want to deal with eyestrain if the IPD will effect you thta way as well.

Ohh, yes thats a very important bit of information that I completely forgot about!
Get your IPD measured to see if you fall within the range of what the Oculus Rift S is physically made to support, because it is not adjustable at all.
This was another issue I had with the Rift S, having an IPD of 69.5mm, the sweetspot where the graphics where clear was tiny, as long as I stared straight on I could see clearly, move my eyes slightly to one side and it became blurry. It also lead to eye strain as @metalnwood mentioned when playing for any prolonged period.
So I would for sure suggest a headset with manually adjustable IPD, which the Index and the Pimax both have, as does the upcoming HP Reverb G2.

 

[Locoblade]

From experience with my secondhand Samsung Odyssey headset, inside out headset tracking is not really an issue for sims, head tracking feels just as good as the Rift CV1 I borrowed that had lighthouses. Where I think inside out tracking can fall down in comparison is when tracking the hand controllers which isn't as reliable but obviously that's not a concern if all you're doing is sim driving.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

From experience with my secondhand Samsung Odyssey headset, inside out headset tracking is not really an issue for sims, head tracking feels just as good as the Rift CV1 I borrowed that had lighthouses. Where I think inside out tracking can fall down in comparison is when tracking the hand controllers which isn't as reliable but obviously that's not a concern if all you're doing is sim driving.

Yeah I agree, it's prob the controller tracking people are referring to when they are talking about lighthouses being better.
Also worth mentioning is that for a seated VR experience such as simracing, it's enough with on lighthouse.
I also forgot to mention... another reason why i added lighthouses to my setup is to be able to use a controller for things like "alt-tabbing" out of a game to the desktop without having to take the headset off.
Inside out tracking is way more convenient, there's no denying that!

 

[TedBrosby-]

I race iRacing and ACC in VR. Here's my opinion as a Rift S owner:
The Rift S looks great in iRacing, but looks like a blurry mess in ACC. No settings or workarounds I've used fix it and there's a weird "graphical clipping" in the horizon. The strange thing is, in ACC the cars look great on the inside. The cockpit view is incredible and all the wheels look super high end and realistic. It feels like I have a Cube Controls $1000 steering wheel even on my poor man's Formula Esports wheel lol.
But once I try to look out the windshield, it's awful.

I wear glasses and have no issues putting on the Rift S.
For iRacing I can drive for a long time with the Rift S and everything looks great, but Assetto Corsa's post processing is garbage.
IMO, it's pretty easy to re-sell a VR headset, so there's no real problem with getting a Valve Index and if you hate it, selling it. IMO, I'm glad I went with the Rift S because I was not sure if I would like VR and was considering getting a cheaper Lenovo Explorer headset to see if I 'liked VR', but the Rift S was on sale in November and I had no idea the pandemic would happen/affect stock so I got it.
Recently I tried a friend's Lenovo and almost threw up even though I adjusted the settings.

So I think it's possible your motion sickness is worse or better depending on the quality of the headset. So it's possible you'll feel motion sick with a Rift S but not an Index. So you might as well buy the best VR headset you can, just so you eliminate the doubt that motion sickness isn't because of VR but rather because of the lower refresh rate/resolution.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Yeah ACC was a blurry mess in all 4 headsets I've tried, with the Pimax I can get it to a playable state at least, but I end up not playing it because all other sims just look so much more crisp and nice in VR.
All peoples face and head shape differ, as does the frames of our glasses, so yeah your milage will vary as far as comfort using glasses with the Rift S.

I figured I'd add these screenshots that I made to try show off the difference in FOV between the Pimax Artisan and the Rift S:
Rift S:

Pimax Artisan:

Don't pay any attention to the distorted FOV of the screenshots, to capture these I had to set ludicrous values in iRacing while running on a monitor. While ingame with both headsets everything feels the correct scale and the mathematical FOV is correct on both.
All I'm trying to show here is how much more side to side vision you have with a headset with wide FOV like the Pimax headsets.
The pics are also an approximation, not 100% correct, but the difference really is HUGE.

 

[Rainman2020]

I saw the in depth review done by Gamer Muscle on the Index last night, and he pointed out the much smaller sweet spot on the Index vs the Rift S, causing you to lock the headset down tight once you find the smaller sweet spot (he also says once locked down to it, it was better than the Rift S). He also pointed out the god ray/glare issue in darker games, but racing is not dark (i doubt i will run night races much). It doesn't make sense that the maker of a Half Life game would develop a headset that struggled in dark conditions (Half Life is dark a lot). I doubt either of these two issues will make the Index not work well for me.

Not sure what the ' adjustable ipd' really means or how it affects things.

My leaning right now is Valve Index with the special lens (to avoid wearing glasses) insert, and to get only the headset and ONE tracking lighthouse (which will bring the cost down a lot). I can add controllers and another lighthouse if i ever want to play things like Half Life.

If i don't like the Index, i don't think it will be any issue getting my money back and going a different route. The same could be said for the Rift S though, i could try that one and hope to be able to save money, and then if i can't get past the motion sickness with it or didn't like the graphics or something, sell it and try the Index. The only issue with doing that sort of thing is if i went for the lens insert thing for $70 on either of them, that will be a cost i end up eating if i sell one and get a different one.

I have been looking at a lot of forums and this one is by far the best i think.

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Will i actually be able to run any racing games at a true 120fps (even with a number of cars near me in a race) with the Index with the system i mentioned above without turning the graphics down to low? I am pretty sure i don't want it to do the 'doubling' thing (whatever that is called) and be a true 60fps that doubles to 120fps, have heard that leads to motion sickness. Isn't the main key running at a consistent real 90fps at least (not doubled)?