Vintage cars in Automobilista 2 (still) doesn't feel right

[Flual]

!!!EDIT 2022: This Post is obsolete. Since the major physics update the cars feel much better. I'll let the post here as an reminder that Reiza is fixing things. Thanks Reiza.!!!!

So here is my complaint: The vintage cars in AMS2 feel weird. I was a backer of the game since day one and I was really hyped. I was looking forward to a product that evens out the problems of PC2.
I'm also a fan of historic race cars and i knew that they were implementing a huge number of vintage formula cars and even Group C my favourite class of all time. But since the first day the vintage cars (I can't talk about the modern cars since I never driven them) feel just wrong. The tyres feel too sticky and you cant control the cars with your throttle inputs.
But I thought that this issue will be dealt with.
So when the Group C and Spa update came along I felt like a child on christmas, but my first drive quickly got rid of this joy. The cars handled horrible. In La source the car oversteered like hell, but not in a way that was controllable. The front tyres felt like they were glued to the floor and every throttle input puts you in the wall of the old pit complex.
The issue is hard to explain with words, you have to see or feel it to know what I mean.
A further update unlocked the differential settings and after messing for hours withe the overall setup the cars became somewhat drivable. I had a couple of races but switched to AC and RF2 again.
So two days ago AMS2 was updated to version 1.2.2.0 which included the Porsche RSR 3.0 one of my favourite GT cars. Since I drive old Porsches all the time in Sims and have driven some in real life I kinda know how they feel. The famous Porsche oversteer which kinda sucks you through haipins when applying the throttle and the back that always want to come around you when you off power in an corner.
So I started up AMS2 and went for a drive in the RSR on Spa Francochamps an track I could drive blindly.
I have to say.........the car feels horrible. It has the same sticky tyre issue as the other vintage cars. Applying all the rules of driving an vintage Porsche doesnt work. The characteristic Porsche oversteer doesn't exist. I messed for hours to get a somewhat driveable setup but the car never felt completely controllable. Going through hairpins Is always a gamble because the front tyres still feel like they glued to the floor. It doesn't feel like a Porsche. Every other Sim before replicated the "too much weight in the back" character of Porsches. Not so AMS 2

What I think is going on is that Reiza is now realizing that they bought the rights to an engine that isn't really good for producing an simulator. Every Problem PC2 had also pops out in AMS2. The developers of Reiza are really good and I'm kinda sad that they have to wrestle this faulty engine.
This doesn't mean that some people might enjoy the game but I close the case AMS2 for now. Maybe they work something out.....

 

[daz_67]

What other racing sim do you prefer if AMS2 is not to your liking?

 

[Flual]

What other racing sim do you prefer if AMS2 is not to your liking?

Mostly Assetto Corsa because it limulates vintage cars the best. But sometimes the Power and Glory mod of GTR2. I was a huge fan of RF2 but I have not played in a while since I don't like the new UI. But AC is hands down the best in my oppinion.

 

[Lefthook]

AMS2 frustrates me a great deal. So much to like about it, but several cars just don't feel like a real car. With quite a few you need to maintain some level of throttle all through a corner to get the differential to behave semi-normal. I believe that the physics engine is fine, but possibly the configuration of several cars (and the default setups) are largely terrible. There is a disconnect I feel with the cars related to this that is just an immersion killer. The F-Retros also feel terrible. There is a scripted understeer feeling for one.

 

[wolftree]

The vintage cars in AMS2 drive a lot better now than they did six months ago. Keep in mind they are modelling bias ply tyres, which have less grip but are more permissive in terms of slip angles, so don't expect them to turn on a dime like a GT3 car or even vintage cars in other sims that don't model bias ply tyres properly. A few tips to help people that are struggling:

1. The default FFB has a strong pendulum effect that can interfere with putting the power down. I suggest downloading the rFuktor 4.6 custom FFB and trying that instead:

https://forum.reizastudios.com/attachments/ffb_custom_settings-silver-raw-rfuktor-4-6-txt.15718/

Make sure you use the LFB and FX sliders appropriately, they can help improve the road and brake feels and make the FFB more communicative.

2. There is a small glitch with the throttle response if you leave the throttle sensitivity at 50 (you won't have precise control over the lowest part of the rev range). To fix this, reduce throttle sensitivity to 35 or less for now until the glitch is fixed. This will help give finer control in and out of slow corners, especially with the Porche RSR 1974.

3. If the bounciness of the default camera bothers you on historic circuits, try setting the camera to legacy mode and using something like head motion 40 (or as low as you can stomach). This will reduce the cockpit bouncing and can help give a more connected driving feel.

4. Some cars (such as the Porsche RSR 1974) have very good custom default setups made by Steelcast27. To find these, enter the time trial at (modern) Imola and copy the setup from the user 'steelreserv'. These tend to be more stable and less on-the-edge than the defaults.

With these fixes I am enjoying the vintage Formulas and the RSR a lot.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

2. There is a small glitch with the throttle response if you leave the throttle sensitivity at 50 (you won't have precise control over the lowest part of the rev range). To fix this, reduce throttle sensitivity to 35 or less for now until the glitch is fixed. This will help give finer control in and out of slow corners, especially with the Porche RSR 1974.

Just as a FYI:
This issue has been identified and corrected for the ongoing beta phase already. Should find its way into the game with the next main release update. It will also affect all cars to some extend in AMS2, which should improve drivability. You can probably go back to 50 sensitivity without issues as soon, as it is released in the future.

It was not related to controls sensitivity curves, but actually mitigated by lower sensitivity indeed. (To summarize, it was about the way, how engines in the game breathe air and needed some tweaking).

Maybe something to be optimistic about!

 

[Durge Driven]

optimistically

vintage in both pCXars and AMS2 drive bad when compared directly to rF2

they will never fix it unless they rebuild engines

personally no matter how flawed rF2 physics are they are more believable then those 2 ! If you can't tell that from driving identical models in both .....well

I doubt anyone has thge ability to build a better engine then ISI did

 

[wolftree]

optimistically

vintage in both pCXars and AMS2 drive bad when compared directly to rF2

they will never fix it unless they rebuild engines

personally no matter how flawed rF2 physics are they are more believable then those 2 ! If you can't tell that from driving identical models in both .....well

I doubt anyone has thge ability to build a better engine then ISI did

Idk what these amazing vintage cars in rF2 you speak of are. I've tried a bunch and they're more or less the same as random AC mods, some good, some bad, most average. No sim that I've tried can touch the 60's Mini in AMS2. But to each their own.

 

[Squale972]

1. The default FFB has a strong pendulum effect that can interfere with putting the power down. I suggest downloading the rFuktor 4.6 custom FFB and trying that instead:

https://forum.reizastudios.com/attachments/ffb_custom_settings-silver-raw-rfuktor-4-6-txt.15718/

Make sure you use the LFB and FX sliders appropriately, they can help improve the road and brake feels and make the FFB more communicative.

4.5 version of this file absolutely changed AMS2's FFB. Now i feel everything: bumps, road, kerb, understeer, brakes...
Before it was just good now it's just awesome and for me the best simulator experience I never had in any sim.
I think it should be implemented by default because I'm sure a lot of drivers give up AMS2 with the default FFB file and settings.
My dream is an AMS league with F1 retro cars and random weather.
I'll try 4.6 version

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

I love AMS2 and I love the new Porsche, I think its gunna lead to some great content for more historic timtops like we had in the awsome Power & Glory Mod for GTR2 and the Historic GT & Touring car mod for the original Rfactor.
But I must say I did notice that the counter steer seems to be over done, yes you should be able to get the back end if you really wanna on a car like this (at least from what I can tell from RL souces, but it feels like you have to counter steer (quite excesively) ever when the cars pretty much straightened up coming out of a corner.
Also feels like there may be a low speed issue, where the back end looses grip when lifing off in a tight corner at speeds as low as 35mph, even with those massive rear tires, maybe im wrong but it seems like pretty much what your saying, infact i said it myself in the this video I took it for a race in.

I have just been told to day however from one of the AMS2 beta testers that the version coming in the next build has been improved (which did'nt surprise me as Reiza usually do this). So Im hopeful it will get better, looking forward to see what they do with it.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Don't beta testers sign NDA?
I had to for other sim title.

 

[lenninon]

Every single "vintage" open wheel car in every sim I have tried is way off except for one and that is the Alexis Russel Formula Ford car for Assetto. It is the only single seat car that feels right in almost every respect. Coming a close second is the reasonably good Skip Barber car in iRacing. All the others are WAY to twitchy and feel like the pins in the steering arms have been removed.

There is a myth perpetuated in the sim racing world that somehow because a single seat car was made before 1980 that it is inherently unstable. This is nonsense. I know this because I used to drive them in the mid 1960s. and early 70s.

In fact the steering in these cars - from F3 upwards is EXTREMELY stable. While any powerful car will give you snap oversteer if you have a lead foot going round corners, most of the vintage single seaters - and particularly mods or stock F1 cars in almost every sim - are way to twitchy and unstable at the front end. I think this myth started being promoted with Grand Prix Legends which was renowned for the front end wondering all over the place.

There is a now quite famous clip of Jim Clark with an onboard camera around either Thruxton or Snetterton in an F1 car and the front end is ROCK SOLID.

As usual, sim car makers tend to grossly exaggerate instability. This is based on no evidence whatsoever, and it is a great shame because the "vintage" cars in AMS2, and the Lotus 49 in iRacing, and many other sims, are ridiculously unstable.

 

[wolftree]

Every single "vintage" open wheel car in every sim I have tried is way off except for one and that is the Alexis Russel Formula Ford car for Assetto. It is the only single seat car that feels right in almost every respect. Coming a close second is the reasonably good Skip Barber car in iRacing. All the others are WAY to twitchy and feel like the pins in the steering arms have been removed.

There is a myth perpetuated in the sim racing world that somehow because a single seat car was made before 1980 that it is inherently unstable. This is nonsense. I know this because I used to drive them in the mid 1960s. and early 70s.

In fact the steering in these cars - from F3 upwards is EXTREMELY stable. While any powerful car will give you snap oversteer if you have a lead foot going round corners, most of the vintage single seaters - and particularly mods or stock F1 cars in almost every sim - are way to twitchy and unstable at the front end. I think this myth started being promoted with Grand Prix Legends which was renowned for the front end wondering all over the place.

There is a now quite famous clip of Jim Clark with an onboard camera around either Thruxton or Snetterton in an F1 car and the front end is ROCK SOLID.

As usual, sim car makers tend to grossly exaggerate instability. This is based on no evidence whatsoever, and it is a great shame because the "vintage" cars in AMS2, and the Lotus 49 in iRacing, and many other sims, are ridiculously unstable.

Agreed on the point that GPL has skewed our perception of these cars.

The main issue with the FVintages in AMS2 is the unreasonable lack of front-end bite and resulting understeer (I can understand it in the FRetros with their tiny front tyres, but not here), requiring unstable rear setups to get the car to powerslide through turns. You can learn to drive around it but it's not very fun to just pick up and drive. Oddly, I think I prefer the vintage F1s in PC2 even if they are probably oversimplified too.

The snappiness under power I think captures reasonably well the famously peaky torque curve of the Cosworth DFV.

 

[Flual]

Every single "vintage" open wheel car in every sim I have tried is way off except for one and that is the Alexis Russel Formula Ford car for Assetto. It is the only single seat car that feels right in almost every respect. Coming a close second is the reasonably good Skip Barber car in iRacing. All the others are WAY to twitchy and feel like the pins in the steering arms have been removed.

There is a myth perpetuated in the sim racing world that somehow because a single seat car was made before 1980 that it is inherently unstable. This is nonsense. I know this because I used to drive them in the mid 1960s. and early 70s.

In fact the steering in these cars - from F3 upwards is EXTREMELY stable. While any powerful car will give you snap oversteer if you have a lead foot going round corners, most of the vintage single seaters - and particularly mods or stock F1 cars in almost every sim - are way to twitchy and unstable at the front end. I think this myth started being promoted with Grand Prix Legends which was renowned for the front end wondering all over the place.

There is a now quite famous clip of Jim Clark with an onboard camera around either Thruxton or Snetterton in an F1 car and the front end is ROCK SOLID.

As usual, sim car makers tend to grossly exaggerate instability. This is based on no evidence whatsoever, and it is a great shame because the "vintage" cars in AMS2, and the Lotus 49 in iRacing, and many other sims, are ridiculously unstable.

Thanks for this great Post. I don't know either why some sims translate "more difficult" into "more realistic". Thats why I stopped playing GPL. If a grand prix car would have been that twitchy to drive, no F1 driver of the 60s would have survived. JAckie Steward said that he always wanted a car thats easy to drive. The difficulty of a race comes majorly not from the handling of the car, but from keeping a good pace over the distance of roughly 2 hours. When you only drive 10 minute races in sims its no wonder that people would find it too easy, when a car is very stable.
I've driven vintage Porsches on track and they are very controllable, eventough not as fast through the corners as their modern counterparts.

 

[wolftree]

If anyone disliked the FVintage cars (60s F1 cars) in the past, I highly recommend you give them another go now. The recent tyre updates have pretty much transformed them. In addition, softening the spring rates and stiffening the ARBs (see screenshot) improves mid-fast corner handling while giving that characteristic slidyness required to navigate tight corners with ease.

 

[JohnyUtah]

I dont aim to fan boy for the game and will be the first to admit that it still has some issues. I do always keep in mind that the game likely has 5 to 7 people working on it and is basically a AAA title. Honestly, every game like PC1 and 2 Asseto Corsa and any other sim with tons of cars are going to have those cars that you like and others you dont. I imagine they have to make each of the cars feel different so there is bound to be some that are winners and others that are not. Personally, I like the RSR and C3PO but I would understand others not.