Vintage F1 cars too twitchy

It's not just AMS2 but nearly all vintage F1 cars are setup by default to be way too unstable and twitchy at the rear. F1, F2 and F3 cars in the late 60s really were not that savage to control. Even with the most forgiving setup and benign differential settings the vintage single seaters are ridiculously unstable. Opposite lock is also very late at catching slides.

Yes, we know they don't have much downforce but why do developers exaggerate this twitchiness? If anyone can suggest a more stable set up I'm all ears.
 
F1, F2 and F3 cars in the late 60s really were not that savage to control.
Can you provide some evidence to back up this claim? I mean, if the cars are "twitchy" in every sim that has them, then to me that suggests that they were in real life too. Unless every sim has got it wrong, unknowingly or otherwise.

Also bear in mind that just because a car doesn't look "twitchy" in video footage, it doesn't mean it isn't. A professional driver with their life on the line is going to be somewhat more skilled/conscious in keeping it under control than armchair racers with nothing to lose.
 
"If you're under control you're not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti
Renato sets up the cars that way.
It's fast if you are comfortable with it but I have to soften up the rear a little bit and move the brake bias rearward myself....
 
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After seeing this thread I tried my hand at the FV G1M1. I believe it's been at least three major releases since I tried any of the FV cars. I used the default settings with slightly reduced brake pressure to 87% and a lightened fuel load for 12 laps at historic Kyalami.

I can get my head around the seeming need to do a lot of steering with your right foot and hence having to tippy-toe on the throttle more than you may want to. I don’t know if it’s accurate to the real life cars of the period but that general behavior at least seems plausible to me. Perhaps just a bit excessive in magnitude relative to my own preferences.

The thing I just cannot get over with this car is the behavior of significantly pulling to one side or the other under braking even when you are going dead straight and not moving the wheel at all. I just can’t for the life of me imagine how this can be even remotely realistic to what these cars actually were like. It’s simply not fast to leave large portions of your braking potential on the table because you’re worried about being pulled off track or colliding with an opponent next to you.

Could it be the diff settings causing this? I don’t know maybe. I didn’t try changing them. All I can say is that if it is the diff or any other specific values in the default settings, then it’s a definite failure on Reiza’s part to release the car with those values. If it’s not any of the values in the default settings, then I’m sorry but I would have to personally categorize this car as a good way towards outright “broken” status.
 
The default setup for the Vintage G1M1 is all messed up. Try dropping the tyre pressures to 1.40 bar (optimal is 1.65 bar hot IIRC), putting brake bias to 65/35 and dropping the number of clutches to 2 with 25 deg power ramp and 45 deg coast ramp. It's a bit tame with those settings but at least you can lap around and make further changes to make it faster.
 
Thanks for replies so far. One post asks for "evidence". Well my evidence is that when I was quite young I drove f3 and f2 cars of that era and was offered a scholarship funded course at Brands Hatch on single seaters, but my parents put a stop to that! I got to know many seasoned drivers of that era and later drove F3 cars at Brands Hatch. They were based on the monocoques that were spin-off designs of the legendary Lotus 25 and later models.

I also got to know many prominent drivers who regularly won races in single seaters and their interpretation of tyre models and suspension set ups of that era were that they were NOT hard to drive.

There exists a complete myth that because late 60s cars had either no wings or not very efficient wings that equalled they were impossible to handle with any stability. This is complete nonsense. The current vintage F1 cars in AMS2 drive like they have loose steering arms and track rods. They squirm all over the place and even while dead straight (as one post above observes) inexplicably steer themselves sideways under even mild braking.

All this makes them utterly undriveable. Physics model designers are under the illusion that any single seat race car of the 1960s is inherently unstable. This is a complete misinterpretation and if I may say so, very lazy thinking. Their approach seems to be: "Ah well this car is from the 60s so I'll make it virtually impossible to control". This is utterly wrong.

Watch videos of Jim Clark and others in F1. They could not possibly have achieved the speeds and control they did with such ridiculously unstable machines.

It is a pity because in all other respects the vintage suite of single seaters in AMS2 are attractive and desirable, but with the current physics they are ludicrously uncontrollable.
 
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The default setup for the Vintage G1M1 is all messed up.
Substantial improvement in G1 M1 drivability with those setup suggestions. Thank you!

My own personal assumption on the vintage cars aligns with some words from a real F-16 pilot I recall from an old flight sim manual. I don’t remember the exact phrasing but it was something like…

“Flying the F-16 is easy. I could teach my neighbor to do it in a few days. Fighting in the F-16, however, is hard and where the training and skill comes in.”

Again, that's just a general impression but I agree with the sentiment that simply driving these cars at 70 or 80% of a competitive pace shouldn't be too terribly difficult.
 
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rF2 in no way has twitchy Historic you can thread a needle with them ;)
Makes Historics in all other sims bland and ordinary >>> in my uneducated opinion

Don't get me started on Formula Vee in AMS2 vs AMS gmotor :barefoot:

 
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Some of the old content sux balls, and only silly people think they aren't heavily exaggerated.
I'm frustrated by AMS2 so I reinstalled all my old simbin race07 content.

So many good cars that conform to basic reality, especially tyres, ie, AMS2 feels like kangaroo chassis physics plus Toyota camry spongy tyre physics.
 
So twitchy !



rFactor 2 Historic F3 mirrors this video ! ............... but somehow it is the sim above all others is most wrong :roflmao:

Sorry I forgot that things like audio, visuals and ui are more important then driving model :giggle:
 
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The braking is what annoys me the most with these cars, as has been mentioned they brake to one side very easily for some reason. I've learned just to gas out the understeer and use different lines. I actually find the 1975 ones harder to drive , just can't figure out how to get really fast in them.
 
Damn, they've ruined the new mclaren with absurd chassis flex or whatever it is.
No joke, this is one of the worst physics I've ever driven...small throttle inputs send the car into a huge swerve across the track.

I see your criticisms about the vintage cars (and some don't like carteham) and the McClaren...and I am taking them all on board as to my opinion because I used to hold some and sighed heavily that the old cars were so unwiedly - and was jealous of people who could be patient enough to drive them heaps. But I already knew the game (and all car sims actually) can't hold a candle to the real world most of the time in terms of being 99.99% there (and I am not claiming it needs to be either here) and thus I am not disappointed.

So much fun was had by me and the McClaren today. Took it on Bathhurst a bit too, and the stock cars, and road cars, and some reiza f1's on various tracks, I love the point and shoot nature of that car in its race form. I like many cars in the game. I guess I instead consider then 'relative' to one another rather than holding them to the real world - lets face it "I ain't driving a McClaren any time soon!"

Well the Road Ultima was flipping-out when changing gear 1st, 2nd, 3rd and hoping across the road - had to adjust the clutch plates, and even then it was tricky to drive. So such things or outliers maybe exist still. Or maybe I was not used to it because I did manage to get in probably 4 good/average laps out of about 12 I tried; I was tired at that point though and I will try it again some time but maybe not on bathurst, probably Guapore where using the Race Ultima is my fave track for it and throwing it around, today it was point and shoot and wow!

I continue to and today more than ever am still having fun. All the vintage cars that I have tried today (mainly the Lotus) have been quite alright and a lot of fun.

I am in fact enthralled by the game in 2021.

And I agree with you here that it was just not right prior to a very obvious extent, but its a testament to the title now that I could not put it down today. We did go out two times and I was itching to get home to play some more.

Heck, my GF even was saying that it was the bees knees - couldn't get her off at one point.

Its my guess they have proceeded in this manner (leaving things half baked) in order to focus on arriving at 2021. Its my guess a lot of these changes were baking for months, but were simply not worth doing because the content they wanted to meet-up/have it there for, did not exist in the game yet and they did not want to do that 'pass' or (his venacular/language-word-for it) more than one time.

Thats my limited understanding of the work done on it outside of the scope of what they write in the dev diary's.

So I can forgive it - because let me tell you I was very frustrated several months ago and had to put the title down, and I was always hanging-out for an update like this one (and to a lesser extent the last one which I briefly looked at but did not dwell on)

Great game now. Many bright, fun and good points/more than ever. Just did V-12 at Imola and raced at 7am, x2 speed and 15 cars, excellent race over 7 laps.

Very fun and with the custom file for FFB felt great - but these days even default or default-custom is pretty swish. The game is not deserving of any derision at the moment. Way too fun and so all cars basically improved from a few months ago. Its night and day.

Note: for my custom file, its version 27 on the reiza forums in custom, not nuscopii the other one, though I think it includes elements of that or so it says on the ingame bars you bring up - and I use 25 dampening, but zero in the control panel. 70 gain on a tx wheel and also 35 fx and 5 (only) LFB. I also use brake bias mapped to the dial up and down. With this kind of thing and especially the dampening for enjoyment. I am finding its pliable enough to stop the cars doing outrageous stuff usually - but with this update I find the game sublime (and Bathurst more than bearable)

Y?

I bet you they took one look at the smoothness of ACC right now and have been working towards such a thing; or how they made their rFactor 2 cars/pack, or how lovely the latest car packs and tracks are to drive in Rfactor2. And ease of setup for new cars, yes you have to dial them in a bit for many tracks but thats just optimizing in many cases (and saving a bad setup for such a track at worst owing to its big difference in necessity); they are heaps better; thus I find the game great. Niggles aside of course. Not many though now.
 
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I've never driven a formula car, but when I compare the Lotus 49c in Project Cars 2 to that in AMS2 - yikes, what a difference!

In PC2, the 49c is a gentle, easily-handled car, and I can hustle it around the Ring like a mad-man. OK, so maybe that game doesn't have the purest of physics, but it's a fun and satisfying car to drive in it.

In AMS2, indeed, it feels comparatively "undrivable." I'm totally new to sim racing, but holy heck, I have to baby that car around the Ring at barely street-legal speeds, gingerly easing in half-throttle even in 3rd lest the rear swings out, the tires feel as slippery as those of a hard-plastic kids toy, etc. Maybe it's accurate, but it doesn't feel reasonable. In AMS2, I've had to move up to some of the faux F1 cars of later generations before they have sufficient grip and down-force to be manageable at speed.

Now, I'm mostly OK with this, actually. It just means it will be more of a challenge to grow into as I improve, or maybe the car needs tuning. Or maybe after I put in a few more hours (I just have a few so far in AMS2) I'll suddenly find it to be fine. But so far, driving the 49c in AMS2 is just not fun.
 
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