What is up with the F301?

[HolyDiver]

Hey all!

I am struggling heavily with the F301 car. I recently installed AMS and did some testing with this car, but it's not really going well so far. The car's rear end snaps away in every corner at every speed the moment I turn in. Now as I recently installed the game and haven't grown accustomed to the physics and the FFB yet, I am not sure whether I have setup my wheel and the FFB right. Should I enable automatic rotation in-game? The car has a default rotation of 360 degrees with 18 steering lock, is the latter too high maybe?

 

[Gringo]

Try and adjust the brake bias several percent forward. The default setting is a bit to much rear brake. I normally reduce the differential lock coast setting by 4-6% also You could play with the steering lock/steering rotation but try adjusting the brakes and diff first.

"Should I enable automatic rotation in-game?" Yes this should be on by default in your controller settings menu.

The F309 has a better out of the box feeling, the F301 is quite tricky with less down force but a faster top speed.

 

[HolyDiver]

Thanks for your reply! I will try the brake bias, but it doesn't really happen while braking, but rather while coasting and turning in (I use trail braking, not sure if that changes anything). Would increasing the coast ramp work?

EDIT: It also randomly appears in mid-corner sometimes at medium speeds, I don't understand that either.

 

[jose46lopez]

Use this website to pick up setups:

http://virtualxperience.net/leaderboards/stock-car-v8/brasilia/1

 

[Gringo]

EDIT: It also randomly appears in mid-corner sometimes at medium speeds, I don't understand that either.

Is it possible you have an assist enabled inadvertently... like the steering help, braking help, stability assist.

Perhaps your controllers are not working correctly, you can confirm the peddle action in the HUD display.

Is it a mod track you are testing with, or stock content track?

Other than that I cant think of why the car would act in an unusual way.
The F3's are one of the premier cars in AMS.

Cheers

 

[Marc Collins]

Is it possible you have an assist enabled inadvertently... like the steering help, braking help, stability assist.

Perhaps your controllers are not working correctly, you can confirm the peddle action in the HUD display.

Is it a mod track you are testing with, or stock content track?

Other than that I cant think of why the car would act in an unusual way.
The F3's are one of the premier cars in AMS.

Cheers

Good suggestion. If this is not the case, then check your controller settings to ensure all inputs are set to linear (straight lines). The F3 is one of my favourite cars, but only after taming it. I'll explain with a question:

Do you drive the F-Vee? How do you find it in corners?

The F-Vee is a training vehicle to teach (or punish as it more often feels like) you how to be smooth with throttle and brake application in corners. It is so top-heavy (for a single-seater) and skittish, that if you can manage to get it around a track at any decent speed, the F3 suddenly feels easy by comparison!

The F3 is not a simple car to drive, though. You get fooled by the aerodynamic assistance in the higher-speed corners and forget you have only mechanical grip in the slower corners. It is also tail heavy, as expected, so pirouettes are a common outcome of any sudden over-correction in a corner--steering, brake or throttle. Once you get the feel for it, it should be tons of fun, though.

Gringo is right, though--any controller jitters or issues will ruin the ability to drive this car. Hence, my suggestion to try out its slower, but even more frustrating, little brother (that you also need to use the clutch with!!!). If that's a disaster, try the F-Trainer, which is the easiest of them all. If even that car is uncontrollable, then you either have a controller defect, a controller configuration issue, or you are just too early on your path to learning that achieving racing speed is all about smoothness The F3 is likely a bit too much to handle if you are a beginner (as per real life).

 

[HolyDiver]

I will try that out, then. Thank you!

 

[Spinelli]

The F301 is probably my most used car in AMS besides the BV8s. It's easy to completely loose grip at low speeds like a pathetic 70 km/h with very little, if any at all brakes, and very ridiculously small amounts of steering lock applied either (I blame more the RF physics engine than the car modelling itself). Basically it never feels planted unless you purposely induce understeer (unlike the F3 and similiar type cars in Netkar Pro, Live for Speed, and real life which give a grip and planted sensation unless really pushing).

What I would do to try and help is get rid of some of the negative toe. Try dropping it from default -0.5 to -0.2 or so. I would also soften the rear dampers (AKA shock abosorbers). Depending on handling characteristics and what you desire you can go with any combination of softening the rear dampers, springs, roll-bar, and stiffening the front roll-bar and springs. Basically you just should induce a bunch of understeer (completely different to how I set the car up in Netkar Pro and Live For Speed where you have "natural grip" from the vehicle/rubber and don't need to depend on purposely inducing a ton of understeer just to keep the car from wanting to loose the rear end).

Don't be scared to carry a little too much speed into the corner as long as you're understeering. You're basically trying to use understeer to negate or "hide" the bad low speed grip physics and overall bad rear-end rotation physics.

Also, on exit under power, be sure to mostly only induce wheelspin and play with the limits when you're almost pointed in a straight line. Inducing wheelspin while still turning usually ends up with a sudden snap which requires a snap-correction and on/off "digital" wheelspin. It's almost impossible to induce wheelspin while maintaining and manipulating the car via wheelspin. Basically, you don't want to drive with the same techniques and thought process as you would in real life racing with regards to driving on and past the limit due to the physics engine's traits

Long Story Short:
Remove some negative toe
Add a bunch of coast diff (bring it up to at least 40%)
Soften the rear (dampers, springs, anti-roll bar or combinations of them) and/or stiffen the front
You can also try removing front wing or adding rear wing
Just use a "throw all sorts of understeer at the car" mentality

 

[Spinelli]

OK I just re-read your first post. I first thought you said the car wants to spin mid-corner, not as soon as you turn in.

Anyways, same advice as I wrote above regarding the turn-in.

I know exactly what you're saying though regarding the turn-in. I have an aquiantance who is a very good real life racecar driver (karting national top 3, Formula Star Mazda winner, Formula Atlantic tests). And he experienced exactly what you're mentioning and what I notice as well. I guess due to his skill and/or experience, he was able to keep the car from spinning but the car would always want to instantly "DART" into the corner. What we had to do to help hide this problem, aside from inducing all the understeer I mentioned above, was slow down his steering ratio so much that he could barely get around the corner during the mid-corner phase. I had to put his in-game steering lock down to around 10 just to try and hide the "inertia-less" darting-into-the-corner issue.

When a car becomes rear-light in real life, the vehicle's inertia will keep the car traveling straight forward along it's original path (for the most part and up until that forward momentum is scrubbed out) but in the rFactor engine the vehicle almost always suddenly turns in sharply when the rear rotates - almost as if inertia suddenly ceases to exist whenever there is any sort of rear-roation/slip...Wherever the front-end points to, that's where the car suddenly starts traveling rather than inertia keeping the car traveling in the direction it was before the rear started rotating. This physics phenomenon, one of a few that has existed in the ISI physics engine (still in RF2 as well as other sim-racing engines) for 15+ years is directly affecting your turn-in experience with AMS' F301. You have to just either:
1. get used to it and adapt to it
2. slow down your steering lock (but this will make your steering lock unrealistically low which will affect you mid-corner or basically anytime the physics phenomenon explained above is not happening)
3. Induce lots of understeer especially during corner entry (no negative toe, lots of front brake bias, lots of coast diff, etc.)




Can you tell me what track you're on? I can play right now and see if I can help you out a little more specifically...

 

[Marc Collins]

When a car becomes rear-light in real life, the vehicle's inertia will keep the car traveling straight forward along it's original path (for the most part and up until that forward momentum is scrubbed out) but in the rFactor engine the vehicle almost always suddenly turns in sharply when the rear rotates - almost as if inertia suddenly ceases to exist whenever there is any sort of rear-roation/slip...Wherever the front-end points to, that's where the car suddenly starts traveling rather than inertia keeping the car traveling in the direction it was before the rear started rotating. This physics phenomenon, one of a few that has existed in the ISI physics engine (still in RF2 as well as other sim-racing engines) for 15+ years is directly affecting your turn-in experience with AMS' F301.

It is the *realistic* way AMS deals with this compared to other sims that keeps me coming back to it. Drive cars like the old Opala with bias ply tires and you will discover that there is nothing inherently wrong with the physics engine (though improvement is always possible in all sims). Sliding, traction, inertia...all behave exactly as we would expect in a car not more advanced than most of today's road cars. The problem is very tail-heavy race cars like the F-Vee or F3 are designed for expert drivers. In addition to the weight transfer issues (that are backwards compared to what we are all used to in our everyday road cars--unless we drive historic Porsche 911 "widow-makers"), the advanced tires are prone to sudden losing of grip at the limit. Again, completely the opposite to a street tire where you get soooooooo much warning that you are going over the edge, a race tire is designed for razor-sharp reaction time and expert seat-of-the-pants feel. I have driven real race cars and can assure you that even with real g-forces they can be a handful until you have enough experience right at the edge of grip. The car will seem like it is glued to the road and then a 1% extra push and you are suddenly facing backwards coming out of a corner.

Given all this, imagine what happens when add-in lower-quality wheels and pedals... I do not want to sound like an equipment snob--I used Logi G25 for years and even continued to use the pedals from that set after I got a better wheel--but AMS is high enough fidelity that the controller you are using, especially the pedal resolution, will make a huge difference. To make a long-story short, smoothness of inputs is the key to going fast. I literally did nothing to my driving skills or experience, but suddenly could smash all my old lap time records just by switching to a load-cell decent quality set of pedals. At least for me, the AMS F3 is one of the cars that switches from frustrating and annoying to sublime, just from that hardware upgrade. All settings at default, Default set-up for the car in AMS. No disrespect to @Spinelli, but I would still follow my advice from above and accept that depending on your hardware, you may have to stick to lower racing-class cars for a while.

 

[Spinelli]

I understand that slick tyres are more edgy than street tyres and what you explained about weight transfer and weight location, that is all extremely basic stuff. There are definite inherent issues in the physics, they are blatantly obvious to me and any other real life drivers who come over and drive and chat with me. They also always have a "damn, now that's much more like it" moment when I then let them try the same or similiar car in Netkar Pro and Live for Speed.

The problem is not tail-heavy cars. Tail-heavy cars can cause instability, I completely agree. It's not the instability itself that's the problem, it's the way the instability presents itself via the nature of the physics engine which is the problem. I have driven real race cars too and have driven a full racing series as well as having a national top-3 karting, Star Mazda winner, Formula Atlantic tester friend who's driven at my house multiple times...besides all that, the issues I speak of are blatantly obvious (at least to me) from simple observation - not even driving/playing but simply observing - and do not need a person to have real life race-car driving experience. Nothing to do with rear-heavy or not, slick tyres or not.

Real life rear-rotation doesn't mean a vehicle instantly changes it's direction of travel as if inertia ceases to exist and the front-end gained unlimited amounts of grip. In real-life, when the rear rotates, the vehicle (for the most part) still continues to travel straight. This is also why, if you know how to exploit this phenomenon (and some others), you can often get around corners using extremely small amounts of steering lock and, in complete opposite to real life, often use less lock the slower you go and more lock the faster you go (which is, generally speaking, completely opposite to real life where lower speeds usually require more sheer steering lock to make the car turn).

A good example is karting. In real life, and KartKraft, you can get the kart sideways but while the kart is still travelling in it's original direction. Try to do this in the RF/AMS/RF2/R3E/PC physics engine and the moment the rear rotates, the kart will almost instantly stop travelling forward and it's direction of travel will suddenly change to where the front points to.

Nascar another example. By exploiting this phenomen, I can do quite fast laptimes with the RF2 Nascars around Indy Speedway using LITERALLY like 1/4 or 1/5 the steering lock of real life Nascars. I even went to the RF2 upgrades menu and gave the Nascar an even slower than realistic steering ratio and was still using ridiculously small amounts of steering lock to get the car to go around the corners.

I have mentioned three different physics issues and Reiza have tried to partially address every issue I've been talking about for years (eg. throttle torque issues, inertia issues). So the fact that all these issues I've been going on about for years has been at least partially acknowledged and attempted to be addressed by Reiza...well...speaks for itself.



Anyways, my intention wasn't to turn this into a physics engine debate thread. I was just trying to give HolyDiver a bit of an explanation as to why he was experiencing the issues he is with the car behavior.

Here's an F301 video since we're on the subject. Maybe it'll benefit HolyDiver in some way.

 

[Marc Collins]

I have mentioned three different physics issues and Reiza have tried to partially address every issue I've been talking about for years (eg. throttle torque issues, inertia issues). So the fact that all these issues I've been going on about for years has been at least partially acknowledged and attempted to be addressed by Reiza...well...speaks for itself.

Anyways, my intention wasn't to turn this into a physics engine debate thread. I was just trying to give HolyDiver a bit of an explanation as to why he was experiencing the issues he is with the car behavior.

Well, yes you have been talking about these same issues for years and for years some of us have tried to educate you as to why you are wrong. Simply drive the street Camaro or the old Opala and witness understeering, easily driftable cars. Case closed. All AMS cars do not exhibit the behaviour you describe so it is not an inherent quality of the sim engine.

I will agree that not every tire or chassis or suspension is optimally modelled. But when a car is faulty as you describe (and the extent of the issue is still debatable), the problem is with the coding of the car and tires, not the physics engine. Or, to be generous, at least 80% of the problem is the car. Until you can demonstrate that all cars exhibit that behaviour (they do not), you should stop repeating the claim that all cars in the gMotor family of sims share the problem.

Anyone here can drive the Camaro and laugh at the concept that it isn't an understeering, overweight, under-tired race car. But, of course, it isn't a race car and that's why the tires and suspension and chassis do not behave like one. The higher-up the order you go, the more razor sharp and on-edge race cars feel. And they go faster, so you have less reaction time to boot. Hence, why there are only a tiny number of people capable of racing them competently. The average person can't even drive a street vehicle competently at 8/10ths.

 

[Spinelli]

Well, yes you have been talking about these same issues for years and for years some of us have tried to educate you as to why you are wrong. Simply drive the street Camaro or the old Opala and witness understeering, easily driftable cars. Case closed. All AMS cars do not exhibit the behavior you describe so it is not an inherent quality of the sim engine.

It's not case closed at all, and just saying someone is wrong is pretty funny. I never said no car is easily driftable. You're not understanding what I'm describing or else you wouldn't be replying with comments like "slick tyres and racecars are more edgy," "you can drift "x" car easily." Those statements are completely besides the point and I even fully agree with them/you - for sure

And yes, the issues I describe can be replicated in just about any car in any iteration of the ISI/rFactor engine be it Automobilista, Project Cars, rFactor, Raceroom, etc. I even gave you examples of me exploiting and explaining these issues.

All it takes is watching real life racing and observing general behavior, let alone driving (or playing) yourself. I already gave you clear examples of the issues being exploited.

Even Reiza acknowledged and slightly improved some of the issues I've been talking about for a while. So if I'm wrong, then you're also saying Reiza is wrong.

 

[Marc Collins]

It's not case closed at all, and just saying someone is wrong is pretty funny. I never said no car is easily driftable. You're not understanding what I'm describing or else you wouldn't be replying with comments like "slick tyres and racecars are more edgy," "you can drift "x" car easily." Those statements are completely besides the point and I even fully agree with them/you - for sure

And yes, the issues I describe can be replicated in just about any car in any iteration of the ISI/rFactor engine be it Automobilista, Project Cars, rFactor, Raceroom, etc. I even gave you examples of me exploiting and explaining these issues.

All it takes is watching real life racing and observing general behavior, let alone driving (or playing) yourself. I already gave you clear examples of the issues being exploited.

Even Reiza acknowledged and slightly improved some of the issues I've been talking about for a while. So if I'm wrong, then you're also saying Reiza is wrong.

Unless they can be replicated in every car, they are not part of a systemic issue.

And Reiza has not reprogrammed the gMotor physics engine to address any of your concerns. They may have adjusted some tire and car parameters--which s a good thing if it results in more realistic sim behaviour.

We don't need to debate this here. My point is that your blanket statement is not true and not relevant to the topic here, which was why is the F3 behaving badly for the OP. To date, you have been unable to demonstrate an inertia or weight shifting issue that cannot be explained by or fixed with tire and chassis updates (better quality assumptions). If you have that evidence--that applies to every vehicle in every gMotor sim, please say so and present it elsewhere. There are already a dozen threads with this argument in them that do not prove your point.

I am sorry that my point is easier to prove than yours. I only need to find one example that does not fit your description. You have to prove that every car fits. But you decided to make the blanket statement argument, not me.

 

[Spinelli]

Prove that you can fix these issues with tire and chassis updates as you said. All I see is that plugging in different numbers to the rFactor engine (rather than working on the actual physics engine coding itself) can just sometimes hide the issues more.

Maybe I'm not good at proving my point because I'm lazy to make videos and such but it's blatantly obvious from just playing, let alone watching any real life video of any car ever in history.

Evidence that it applies to every vehicle is based on my 15-20 years of playing the gMotor physics engine, real life racing of F1600s, multiple different F2000s and more (real life experience is not needed to realize these issues), and just by literally observing physics of any vehicle of any video in history.

By the way, what you said about some Reiza improvements that correspond with what I've been saying being not an actual physics engine update on Reiza's part is not true. There is a video that Niels made about the engine throttle torque stuff. You yourself even replied in another thread where someone else complained of similar issues as me and said:

Yes, it would be interesting to know if this effect is also happening while in gear. It doesn't appear to (try chugging along staying in 1st gear), but unexpected throttle blips or rises could explain the loss of grip Spinelli is talking about when the rears spin or slide a bit. If that effect that we see sitting in the pits in neutral engages during rear grip loss or wheel spin while in gear....!?!

No it doesn't seem to happen when in gear while there is no slip...but as soon as slip occurs, you get a resultant behavior which mimics this same throttle issue while in neutral/clutch-in (your bolded part). Correlation is not necessarily causation so I can't say for sure if the throttle phenomenon is what causes the overly aggressive and instantaneous rear-slip & rear wheelspin rate-increase. All I know is the resultant behavior, not exactly what causes it (although I have a hunch it could be a few different things or combinations).

Never mind the Nascar and karting examples I described, I just drove the F301 (my most used car along with the BV8) and it's ridiculous. The moment you get wheelspin, the revs and wheelspin want to shoot to redline the majority of times as if 99% of grip is gone and the surface turned into glass or ice. Also, it's way too on/off during rear-slip rather than being able to modulate the throttle to play and manipulate the wheelspin like you can in real life (regardless if it's a Skip Barber, an F2000, an F3, an F1, etc.)

Or never mind the F301, check the F1s out. Look at the 95 Ferrari as an example. It's like the F301. Look how in real life you can hold and control/adjust wheelspin and angles. In game it's, again, very on/off.

Or never mind the F301, 95 F1, karts, and Nascar. Try a Formula Truck. Watch videos of how real FTrucks behave under oversteer, especially power oversteer. It's the same as the other vehicles I've described. You can get rear wheelspin in real life while the tyres don't try to spin all the way to redline because the tyres are sort of clawing at the track while they're spinning. Do the same in an FTruck and, like the other examples, there is no tyre "clawing" effect, instead, the tyres just want to keep spinning up more and more to redline as if the surface turned to glass or ice.

I don't spend time to make videos of this stuff because, to me, it's so blatantly obvious from playing the game and observing real life physics. But maybe I'll make videos.

 

[Marc Collins]

Maybe I'm not good at proving my point because I'm lazy to make videos and such but it's blatantly obvious from just playing, let alone watching any real life video of any car ever in history.

Evidence that it applies to every vehicle is based on my 15-20 years of playing the gMotor physics engine, real life racing of F1600s, multiple different F2000s and more (real life experience is not needed to realize these issues), and just by literally observing physics of any vehicle of any video in history.

By the way, what you said about some Reiza improvements that correspond with what I've been saying being not an actual physics engine update on Reiza's part is not true. There is a video that Niels made about the engine throttle torque stuff. You yourself even replied in another thread where someone else complained of similar issues as me and said:No it doesn't seem to happen when in gear while there is no slip...but as soon as slip occurs, you get a resultant behavior which mimics this same throttle issue while in neutral/clutch-in (your bolded part). Correlation is not necessarily causation so I can't say for sure if the throttle phenomenon is what causes the overly aggressive and instantaneous rear-slip & rear wheelspin rate-increase. All I know is the resultant behavior, not exactly what causes it (although I have a hunch it could be a few different things or combinations).

Never mind the Nascar and karting examples I described, I just drove the F301 (my most used car along with the BV8) and it's ridiculous. The moment you get wheelspin, the revs and wheelspin want to shoot to redline the majority of times as if 99% of grip is gone and the surface turned into glass or ice. Also, it's way too on/off during rear-slip rather than being able to modulate the throttle to play and manipulate the wheelspin like you can in real life (regardless if it's a Skip Barber, an F2000, an F3, an F1, etc.)

Or never mind the F301, check the F1s out. Look at the 95 Ferrari as an example. It's like the F301. Look how in real life you can hold and control/adjust wheelspin and angles. In game it's, again, very on/off.

Or never mind the F301, 95 F1, karts, and Nascar. Try a Formula Truck. Watch videos of how real FTrucks behave under oversteer, especially power oversteer. It's the same as the other vehicles I've described. You can get rear wheelspin in real life while the tyres don't try to spin all the way to redline because the tyres are sort of clawing at the track while they're spinning. Do the same in an FTruck and, like the other examples, there is no tyre "clawing" effect, instead, the tyres just want to keep spinning up more and more to redline as if the surface turned to glass or ice.

I don't spend time to make videos of this stuff because, to me, it's so blatantly obvious from playing the game and observing real life physics. But maybe I'll make videos.

Videos won't help at all. I agree that the tires on some vehicles (like 90% of the rF2 cars pre-2018) have issues that cause them to heat-up too quickly or lose their grip too quickly (or some interactive combination of these). When this happens at the rear in a RWD, tail-heavy car, bad simulation results. Fix the tire modelling and the problem disappears. And, it doesn't affect all cars. You are proving my point.

And without seeing the context of the quote you found from me, it is impossible to know if it at all relevant to this conversation. Of course, diff modelling and throttle mapping, if done badly, could also contribute to the sensation of too-sudden loss of control. I do not experience what you do in the F301. It is completely controllable and when it misbehaves it is invariably because I was not smooth enough on an input, or, am over-driving the car. It's popular in AMS for a reason...fun and properly controllable (if you have a good quality controller and smooth hands and feet). I am sure a more advanced tire model would make it even better, but then we might have to spend five years in the wilderness while the car programmers figure-out how it works (e.g., as occurred with rF2 and iRacing). I'd rather have the slightly less sophisticated, but natural feeling older iteration that better matches my real-world experience in race and road cars.

 

[Spinelli]

I do not experience what you do in the F301. It is completely controllable and when it misbehaves it is invariably because I was not smooth enough on an input, or, am over-driving the car. It's popular in AMS for a reason...fun and properly controllable (if you have a good quality controller and smooth hands and feet). I am sure a more advanced tire model would make it even better, but then we might have to spend five years in the wilderness while the car programmers figure-out how it works (e.g., as occurred with rF2 and iRacing). I'd rather have the slightly less sophisticated, but natural feeling older iteration that better matches my real-world experience in race and road cars.

Please show me that sort of behavior with the F301 or F309 in AMS or any rFactor/ISI physics engine as well as the iRacing engine.

A few things to notice:
- adding throttle while already in an oversteer condition doesn't result in sudden massive wheelspin and revs shooting to redline

- slides are held, it's not so on/off, it's not so "snap opposite lock, then snap back to centre"

- look how big the oversteer angles are, look how much opposite lock he gives with the car still being in control

- while slides are in progress, the vehicle never reacts jerky, "digital," "mass-less" or anything like that. Apart from seeing the driver's hands working, the vehicle itself changes state of grip/no-grip and oversteer-angle very smoothly.

- the vehicle always carries on with it's natural arc around the corner. Even when the rear comes out, the front tyres may be pointed to the inside of the track but the vehicle still continues moving towards the outside of the track almost as if there never even was any oversteer to begin with

- there are some very small, subtle oversteer moments in the video (0:20, 0:27, 0:46, 0:53) that may not look like much at first but notice in these videos that when the small power-exit-oversteer occurs, the driver can still keep the throttle planted and the tyres don't instantly spin up to redline. Instead, the oversteer goes away on it's own from the driver's small steering correction in combination with the tyres "clawing" at the track even while they're spinning. If you do this behavior in ISI engine, you'll just make the oversteer and wheelspin much worse and will need to do a fast snap-lift of the throttle because of the "when rear slip occurs, it's as if the tyres/vehicle is floating in the air rather than still in contact with the ground" phenomenon in the ISI engine (as well as some other sim engines). This is fantastically done well in Netkar Pro (and pretty good in LFS too) where it behaves in complete opposite to the ISI engine and almost identically to the video - you can get some small oversteer but you're able to keep the throttle pinned down (or mostly pinned down) and the tyres naturally claw and re-grip the track rather than the rear tyres lighting up as if you have 2000 Hp. I can get all sorts of these little slides in NKP and LFS. It's brilliant and feels scarily realistic.


During wheelspin in real life, it's as if tyres want to re-grip the track. Think of a bunch of claws or hooks sticking out of the tyre. While it's spinning, these claws or hooks keep trying to dig in and grab the track and that's why you get a sense of grip even when grip is lost. In the ISI engine, it's the opposite, when there is slip angle, it's as if the tyre doesn't try to claw or hook it's way back into the track but rather keep sliding as if the tyre got suddenly lifted off the ground or as if the ground suddenly lost a massive amount of coefficient of friction (eg. tarmac suddenly turned into glass or ice).

In the ISI engine, throttle applications during wheelspin usually result in wheelspin and revs massively spiking like crazy unlike real life where different throttle amounts will only raise the revs and wheelspin slightly which can be counteracted by the driver adding more opposite lock. Often, a quick & steady stab of throttle doesn't even make the wheelspin worse but instead keeps the revs stable and helps stabilize the rear (video 2 is a good example of this).


This behavior is repeatable in other vehicles from Formula Trucks to karts to Formula 1s.

 

[Limão]

It's fun to use the F301 and race against the F309. On public servers, if you're fast and dominate this car, for sure you won't be fighting for the win, but will have lots of fun by battling in the first half of the grid.

 

[Marc Collins]

Please show me that sort of behavior with the F301 or F309 in AMS or any rFactor/ISI physics engine as well as the iRacing engine.

A few things to notice:
- adding throttle while already in an oversteer condition doesn't result in sudden massive wheelspin and revs shooting to redline

- slides are held, it's not so on/off, it's not so "snap opposite lock, then snap back to centre"

- look how big the oversteer angles are, look how much opposite lock he gives with the car still being in control

- while slides are in progress, the vehicle never reacts jerky, "digital," "mass-less" or anything like that. Apart from seeing the driver's hands working, the vehicle itself changes state of grip/no-grip and oversteer-angle very smoothly.

- the vehicle always carries on with it's natural arc around the corner. Even when the rear comes out, the front tyres may be pointed to the inside of the track but the vehicle still continues moving towards the outside of the track almost as if there never even was any oversteer to begin with

- there are some very small, subtle oversteer moments in the video (0:20, 0:27, 0:46, 0:53) that may not look like much at first but notice in these videos that when the small power-exit-oversteer occurs, the driver can still keep the throttle planted and the tyres don't instantly spin up to redline. Instead, the oversteer goes away on it's own from the driver's small steering correction in combination with the tyres "clawing" at the track even while they're spinning. If you do this behavior in ISI engine, you'll just make the oversteer and wheelspin much worse and will need to do a fast snap-lift of the throttle because of the "when rear slip occurs, it's as if the tyres/vehicle is floating in the air rather than still in contact with the ground" phenomenon in the ISI engine (as well as some other sim engines). This is fantastically done well in Netkar Pro (and pretty good in LFS too) where it behaves in complete opposite to the ISI engine and almost identically to the video - you can get some small oversteer but you're able to keep the throttle pinned down (or mostly pinned down) and the tyres naturally claw and re-grip the track rather than the rear tyres lighting up as if you have 2000 Hp. I can get all sorts of these little slides in NKP and LFS. It's brilliant and feels scarily realistic.


During wheelspin in real life, it's as if tyres want to re-grip the track. Think of a bunch of claws or hooks sticking out of the tyre. While it's spinning, these claws or hooks keep trying to dig in and grab the track and that's why you get a sense of grip even when grip is lost. In the ISI engine, it's the opposite, when there is slip angle, it's as if the tyre doesn't try to claw or hook it's way back into the track but rather keep sliding as if the tyre got suddenly lifted off the ground or as if the ground suddenly lost a massive amount of coefficient of friction (eg. tarmac suddenly turned into glass or ice).

In the ISI engine, throttle applications during wheelspin usually result in wheelspin and revs massively spiking like crazy unlike real life where different throttle amounts will only raise the revs and wheelspin slightly which can be counteracted by the driver adding more opposite lock. Often, a quick & steady stab of throttle doesn't even make the wheelspin worse but instead keeps the revs stable and helps stabilize the rear (video 2 is a good example of this).


This behavior is repeatable in other vehicles from Formula Trucks to karts to Formula 1s.

I don't see anything in the video that I also don't see in AMS. Others should respond, too, but I have no idea what in that video is supposed to be so impossible to replicate? I often have those "controlled squirrelley" moments in the car and if you keep your foot carefully in the throttle, the AMS F301 behaves as the real ones did in the video. The problem is that most people do not keep the throttle properly modulated in a tense moment--they either lift off suddenly or try to apply more throttle. The former will often upset the car and make it swap ends; the latter will often overheat the rears and then cause a mess when you don't have enough grip to bring the car under control and accelerate to stay in the race.

This is the wrong thread to get a lot of feedback from others, since we have completely hijacked it. But I doubt I am the only one who does not see anything foreign in the video compared to what we experience driving the AMS car.

I will reiterate that if you cannot get the car to behave in this way, it's due to inadequate quality pedals (I know because I used those for many long years), or, inability to stay calm and controlled with all inputs during these sphincter-clenching moments.

 

[Spinelli]

I agree, I do the same
I always race in the F301 when every one else is in the F309 unless every one is very fast then I have no choice, lol.

I had some beautiful online races at Buenos Aires #9 with me in the F301 and every one else in the F309.