Which is faster than what: ordering different racing series

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was recently using the excellent URD T5 mod and thinking to myself, "Is the modern DTM series as fast as tin tops get?".

What I'm asking is: how are racing series classed in order of which is faster than which? On, say, typical, non-oval race courses.

I know that Formula 1 is faster than Formula 2, ok. I know that GT1 is faster than GT2, which is faster than GT3. Fine.

But, for example, is modern DTM faster than GT3 or GT1? Where do Aussie V8s come in? Is DTM faster than Formula 3? Japanese GT500? LMPs? BTCC? and so on

I believe that some series, like GT1 or Group C, no longer exist in reality. But these series do very much exist in the present for us sim racers so it'd be good to know where these are placed too.

I'd love to know what you know...

 

[Stereo]

LMP1 is the fastest closed wheel category, they have similar downforce, slightly higher weight than F1.

Then in order, for endurance, there's LMP2, GT2(GT,GTE), LMP3*(LMPC), GT3(GTC,GTD, Porsche Cup), GT4. Names in brackets are mostly same regulations with maybe one or two quirks (eg. GTD uses a series spec rear wing and Porsche Cup is a single make series that happens to be similar to GT3). GT2 and LMP3 are similar speeds by nature but GT2 is usually a Pro driver category as the fastest production-based class in multiclass series, and LMP3 is Amateur as the slowest prototype-based class.

1990s GT1 is similar to modern GT2 in speeds, but is based on only nominally production cars (there are supposedly 2 Toyota GT-One road cars but the second one's whereabouts have always been a mystery) so is more like LMP2 in nature, just on 20 year older technology. 2000s GT1 is more restrictive on being production which again means it's similar speed to current GT2 since the less restrictive rules are based on older tech.

 

[SakL]

Approximately:
Sports cars:
LMP1
GT500
DTM
LMP2
GTE (or GT2 in AC)
GT3
V8 Supercars
WTCC
GT4 & Various cup cars

Open wheelers:
F1
GP2
Formula Renault 3.5
GP3
F3
All sorts of other Formula racers

Don´t know about the classes of yesteryear though.

 

[Billy Pilgrim]

Approximately:
Sports cars:
LMP1
GT500
DTM
LMP2

Interesting that GT500 is faster than DTM

 

[SakL]

Interesting that GT500 is faster than DTM

They are very close, but better tyres on the japanese cars.
A bit like GT3 vs Pirelli World Challenge.

 

[Matheus Machado]

LMP3*(LMPC), GT3(GTC,GTD, Porsche Cup), GT4

GT3 is in a different level than GTC and cup cars, the latter are more comparable to slightly faster GT4. And LMPC is supposed to be faster than GT2s/GTEs.

 

[Billy Pilgrim]

GTC and cup cars

Cup cars are the Porsche Carrera Cup, yeah?

What are GTC? I googled it and didn't see a clear answer.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

LMP1 is the fastest closed wheel category, they have similar downforce, slightly higher weight than F1.

Then in order, for endurance, there's LMP2, GT2(GT,GTE), LMP3*(LMPC), GT3(GTC,GTD, Porsche Cup), GT4. Names in brackets are mostly same regulations with maybe one or two quirks (eg. GTD uses a series spec rear wing and Porsche Cup is a single make series that happens to be similar to GT3). GT2 and LMP3 are similar speeds by nature but GT2 is usually a Pro driver category as the fastest production-based class in multiclass series, and LMP3 is Amateur as the slowest prototype-based class.

1990s GT1 is similar to modern GT2 in speeds, but is based on only nominally production cars (there are supposedly 2 Toyota GT-One road cars but the second one's whereabouts have always been a mystery) so is more like LMP2 in nature, just on 20 year older technology. 2000s GT1 is more restrictive on being production which again means it's similar speed to current GT2 since the less restrictive rules are based on older tech.

97-ish GT1s are about the same as current GT2s (usually a couple of seconds per lap faster) until you get some modern tires on them, in which case it's about 4-5 seconds a lap on current GT2s. That said, 98-99 GT1s are way faster than current GT2s.

 

[ouvert]

depends who is driving

 

[Cristian Haba]

depends who is driving

No it doesnt, a 98 Porsche GT1 (hint: @mclarenf1papa ) with 600bhp and circa 900kg in weight and bespoke aero vs a 600 bhp and ~1250kg road car with limited aero, will never be the same in pace. (Cheat tires not withstanding)

Edit: dont GT2s have ~500bhp ?

 

[mclarenf1papa]

No it doesnt, a 98 Porsche GT1 (hint: @mclarenf1papa ) with 600bhp and circa 900kg in weight and bespoke aero vs a 600 bhp and ~1250kg road car with limited aero, will never be the same in pace. (Cheat tires not withstanding)

Edit: dont GT2s have ~500bhp ?

GT2s have 470-530 hp, and actually more downforce than the old GT1s, but they have about the same downforce/weight ratio (GT2s are a bit better there). e.g. the McLaren F1 Longtail has 600+ hp, weighs 915 kg, and makes 2/3rds the downforce of a current GT2. It's as fast on the straights as LMP1s.

Pre-1.3 of AC it was 4 seconds a lap faster at Spa than GT3s, and it's a decent amount slower than 98-99 cars.

 

[Cristian Haba]

GT2s have 470-530 hp, and actually more downforce than the old GT1s, but they have about the same downforce/weight ratio (GT2s are a bit better there). e.g. the McLaren F1 Longtail has 600+ hp, weighs 915 kg, and makes 2/3rds the downforce of a current GT2. It's as fast on the straights as LMP1s.

Pre-1.3 of AC it was 4 seconds a lap faster at Spa than GT3s, and it's a decent amount slower than 98-99 cars.

Are we talking about real life or ingame here, in game the McLaren F1 is in the high 2:21s vs GT2s at low 2:15s due to tires and aero. IRL the difference in incomparable as the track layout was completely different in 1995-200 as you well know.

Also the GT1 I was talking about is

I doubt GT2s can compete with that.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

Are we talking about real life or ingame here, in game the McLaren F1 is in the high 2:21s vs GT2s at low 2:15s due to tires and aero. IRL the difference in incomparable as the track layout was completely different in 1995-200 as you well know.

Also the GT1 I was talking about is

I doubt GT2s can compete with that.

The car I mentioned is the 1997 Mclaren Longtail (not the 96 short tail we have ingame from Kunos). McLaren Longtail is faster than GT2s, end of story.

 

[Constantin Grimminger]

They are very close, but better tyres on the japanese cars.
A bit like GT3 vs Pirelli World Challenge.

Have to disagree, as DTM yet has bigger engines. Ofc that's not determining speed (=better lap times), but tyres don't do also. Btw, I'm not sure where you got the information from that GT500 has the "better" tyres.

 

[Mclaren F1 GTR]

97-ish GT1s are about the same as current GT2s (usually a couple of seconds per lap faster) until you get some modern tires on them, in which case it's about 4-5 seconds a lap on current GT2s. That said, 98-99 GT1s are way faster than current GT2s.

Actually 1997ish GT1 are significantly faster than GT2/GT3 cars.F1 GTR in 1997 at spa did 2:08 while GT2 cars did a best of 2:16,spa has better mechanical grip now but was a bit shorter,so I think new spa may be faster by 3-4s according to my lap times in both configurations.At red bull ring 97 F1 GTR was more than 5s faster than GTE with the same results at mugello,laguna seca,donington(it had slower chicane).

About Short tail GTR, well it didn't have many lap times so it isn't comparative.Anyway if you want comparision at le mans F1 GTR 96 did 3:48.264 while this year GTE cars did 3:51.Also on Zhuhai(same configuration) F1 GTR Short tail with a lap time of 1:31.886 is faster than GTE with a lap time of 1:34.815.(2013 lap times are a bit slower).That being said F1 GTR Shorttail will be at average 2-3s faster on tracks than a GTE car.

.Also GT2 cars don't have more downforce than 1996 GT1's let alone 98 ones.F1 GTR produces around 670kg downforce at 100mph according to a race car book,GT2 car produces 600kg at 100mph.

GT3 is in a different level than GTC and cup cars, the latter are more comparable to slightly faster GT4. And LMPC is supposed to be faster than GT2s/GTEs.

One correction though.GT3 cars are known as GTC in some series so they are not different.

Cup cars are the Porsche Carrera Cup, yeah?

What are GTC? I googled it and didn't see a clear answer.

No, the cup cars you are referring to is actually GT3 Cup not carrera cup cars which are as fast as GT3 cars.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

Actually 1997ish GT1 are significantly faster than GT2/GT3 cars.F1 GTR in 1997 at spa did 2:08 while GT2 cars did a best of 2:16,spa has better mechanical grip now but was a bit shorter,so I think new spa may be faster by 3-4s according to my lap times in both configurations.At red bull ring 97 F1 GTR was more than 5s faster than GTE with the same results at mugello,laguna seca,donington(it had slower chicane).

About Short tail GTR, well it didn't have many lap times so it isn't comparative.Anyway if you want comparision at le mans F1 GTR 96 did 3:48.264 while this year GTE cars did 3:51.Also on Zhuhai(same configuration) F1 GTR Short tail with a lap time of 1:31.886 is faster than GTE with a lap time of 1:34.815.(2013 lap times are a bit slower).That being said F1 GTR Shorttail will be at average 2-3s faster on tracks than a GTE car.

.Also GT2 cars don't have more downforce than 1996 GT1's let alone 98 ones.F1 GTR produces around 670kg downforce at 100mph according to a race car book,GT2 car produces 600kg at 100mph.


One correction though.GT3 cars are known as GTC in some series so they are not different.



No, the cup cars you are referring to is actually GT3 Cup not carrera cup cars which are as fast as GT3 cars.

Spa is a bad point of comparison as the layout is totally different. The only tracks on the 1997 schedule that haven't changed layouts since have been the Red Bull Ring, Suzuka, Mugello, and Laguna Seca.

At all of those tracks for the McLaren vs. GTEs the gap is the 4-5 seconds that I wrote.

In saying the speed was generally 2 seconds faster I was referring to the average pace of GT1 in '97, which was lowered significantly by the likes of Lotus and Panoz (which sometimes ran qualifying laps that were 5 seconds slower than other GT1 contenders).

Also, those downforce figures don't make sense. 670 lbs at 100 mph would be possible, but would still be much higher than I've seen (especially if you're talking pre-1997, in which case the number makes little sense in any regard). 670 kg at 100 mph would be nearly impossible. However assuming a typo, 670 kg at 200 mph would be feasible for the '95 GTR (close to the data I have). For 1997 you're looking at close to 1100 kg at 200, which is slightly less than I've seen current GT2s quoted at (apparently 1100-1300kg). Current tires are grippier, but the downforce to weight ratio of the '97 GTR is better as well as its power to weight, so it ends up being quicker.

 

[Mclaren F1 GTR]

Spa is a bad point of comparison as the layout is totally different. The only tracks on the 1997 schedule that haven't changed layouts since have been the Red Bull Ring, Suzuka, Mugello, and Laguna Seca.

At all of those tracks for the McLaren vs. GTEs the gap is the 4-5 seconds that I wrote.

In saying the speed was generally 2 seconds faster I was referring to the average pace of GT1 in '97, which was lowered significantly by the likes of Lotus and Panoz (which sometimes ran qualifying laps that were 5 seconds slower than other GT1 contenders).

Also, those downforce figures don't make sense. 670 lbs at 100 mph would be possible, but would still be much higher than I've seen (especially if you're talking pre-1997, in which case the number makes little sense in any regard). 670 kg at 100 mph would be nearly impossible. However assuming a typo, 670 kg at 200 mph would be feasible for the '95 GTR (close to the data I have). For 1997 you're looking at close to 1100 kg at 200, which is slightly less than I've seen current GT2s quoted at (apparently 1100-1300kg). Current tires are grippier, but the downforce to weight ratio of the '97 GTR is better as well as its power to weight, so it ends up being quicker.

Actually suzuka track is changed and is around 5-7s faster the changes include faster 130r and removal of bump,faster esses,faster chicane,etc.For 1996 GTR from the data I have it is the same as longtail with reduced but less downforce to mass ratio.

Your data has less downforce value than I have seen.Car magazine says F1 GTR runs upside down at 100mph,asuming its a typo error,I assume the speed was 160-200mph.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2000-mclaren-f1-supercar/

Also about spa,it has not changed much only change was the bus stop chicane,removal of bumps and resurfacing which may have made it 3-4s faster according to lap times I have done in AC in both configurations.
http://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/belgium/spa-francorchamps.html#.V7YBAvl97IU

By the way even 1996 F1 GTR is supposed to be faster than GTE cars by 2-3s according to the lap times I have of real life in same configuration tracks below.So beating longtail would be impossible which laps almost as fast as an LMP2 at redbull.

Track F1 GTR(96) GTE
Zhuhai 1:31.886 1:34.506(BMW M3 GT2)
Le Mans 3:48.264 3:51.185(Ford GT GTE)
Jarama 1:30.053 1:31.892(Ferrari 458 Italia GTE)
Anderstorp 1:28.908 1:34.23(Huracan GT3)
Brands Hatch 1:22.11 1:23.269(Audi R8 LMS Ultra GT3) (*note brands hatch in 1990's had dingle dell chicane at sheene's curve.)

So what do you think of 96 F1 GTR vs GTE?

 

[mclarenf1papa]

Actually suzuka track is changed and is around 5-7s faster the changes include faster 130r and removal of bump,faster esses,faster chicane,etc.For 1996 GTR from the data I have it is the same as longtail with reduced but less downforce to mass ratio.

Your data has less downforce value than I have seen.Car magazine says F1 GTR runs upside down at 100mph,asuming its a typo error,I assume the speed was 160-200mph.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2000-mclaren-f1-supercar/

Also about spa,it has not changed much only change was the bus stop chicane,removal of bumps and resurfacing which may have made it 3-4s faster according to lap times I have done in AC in both configurations.
http://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/belgium/spa-francorchamps.html#.V7YBAvl97IU

By the way even 1996 F1 GTR is supposed to be faster than GTE cars by 2-3s according to the lap times I have of real life in same configuration tracks below.So beating longtail would be impossible which laps almost as fast as an LMP2 at redbull.

Track F1 GTR(96) GTE
Zhuhai 1:31.886 1:34.506(BMW M3 GT2)
Le Mans 3:48.264 3:51.185(Ford GT GTE)
Jarama 1:30.053 1:31.892(Ferrari 458 Italia GTE)
Anderstorp 1:28.908 1:34.23(Huracan GT3)
Brands Hatch 1:22.11 1:23.269(Audi R8 LMS Ultra GT3) (*note brands hatch in 1990's had dingle dell chicane at sheene's curve.)

So what do you think of 96 F1 GTR vs GTE?

LM layout is different since then...but yeah didn't know about suzuka.

I don't really know much about the '96 car...but both the 96 and 95 had much less downforce than the 97 car (whose DF values that I quoted are correct). The data I have for the 1995 car at LM shows about 550 kg at 200 mph.

 

[Mclaren F1 GTR]

LM layout is different since then...but yeah didn't know about suzuka.

I don't really know much about the '96 car...but both the 96 and 95 had much less downforce than the 97 car (whose DF values that I quoted are correct). The data I have for the 1995 car at LM shows about 550 kg at 200 mph.

Yes,I know that LM is a bit different than new one but the changes didn't affect its lap times.When the circuit was changed in 2002,new cars was able to drop lap time by 3s.

2001 lap time of R8 was 3;32 in 2002 it was 3:29.Next change I think was in 2007 where again lap times dropped by 2s.In 2006 DBR managed 3:51 and in 2007 it managed 3:48.These improvements can be expected during the one year gap.(Note-I am using only same cars for comparision).

By the way where did you get downforce figures from,they are way too low as to my knowledge.Even Zonda R generates 2000kg at 186mph and it still laps slower than both F1 GTR(all versions) and GT2 Cars inspite of weighing 1070kg.Even roadcars like Ferrari enzo can have more than 700kg downforce at that speed.Your figures must be the rear downforce values.

From the data I have gathered 1996 F1 GTR pulls 2.1g(1995 version pulled 2g) at around 100mph and GT3 or GTE cars pull 1.9g at same speed.Racing slicks may have around 1.3-1.5 mechanical grip depending on compounds.So calculating from figures we get 408kg for the F1 GTR 96 and 333kg for GT3/GTE weighing 1250kg.

For the F1 GTR the figures are from the silverstone test in 1996 and GTE lateral g's are taken from onboard videos showing lateral g's.So from the lap times I have the GTE cars are still catching up with F1 GTR 96 but are as fast as 95 F1 GTR.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

By the way where did you get downforce figures from,they are way too low as to my knowledge.Even Zonda R generates 2000kg at 186mph and it still laps slower than both F1 GTR(all versions) and GT2 Cars inspite of weighing 1070kg.Even roadcars like Ferrari enzo can have more than 700kg downforce at that speed.Your figures must be the rear downforce values.

From the data I have gathered 1996 F1 GTR pulls 2.1g(1995 version pulled 2g) at around 100mph and GT3 or GTE cars pull 1.9g at same speed.Racing slicks may have around 1.3-1.5 mechanical grip depending on compounds.So calculating from figures we get 408kg for the F1 GTR 96 and 333kg for GT3/GTE weighing 1250kg.

For the F1 GTR the figures are from the silverstone test in 1996 and GTE lateral g's are taken from onboard videos showing lateral g's.So from the lap times I have the GTE cars are still catching up with F1 GTR 96 but are as fast as 95 F1 GTR.

Plain and simply put, your knowledge isn't correct...
All of them are from very reliable sources, and are accurate....that 2000kg figure for the Zonda is pure fiction....2000 lbs perhaps, but 2000kg at 186 mph is as much as LMP1s.

Also please recognize that saying the '96 GTR produces 408kg at 100 mph means you're saying it produces more DF than this LMP2 car:

...which it clearly doesn't.

Also, you can't work out aero loads directly from either corner speeds or g force telemetry....the load sensitivity of the tires plays a huge role in how each kg of downforce affects the grip of the car, and without that data (which you most certainly don't have), you can't produce a genuinely accurate estimate.

On your lateral G force note, Road and Track tested a 1997 Porsche GT1 Evo and it pulled just 1.07 G on a 200 ft skidpad. Of course in all likelihood the tires were not warmed up, but the point stands that we're not looking at cars with massive cornering capabilities...they accelerated well and they stopped well, but that's about it. Regardless, that's not the argument at hand...