Why are DD wheels so powerful?

[Boby Kim]

Why are DD wheels so powerful? They can breaks your hands and come with an emergency stop button. Hence they are so expensive. I run a TS-PC fairly light (75% in TM software) en around 50% in game settings, as i learned that it is all about the fidelity of the forces, not the strength of the force.
So i would like to have a DD wheel with the max strength of a consumer wheel like to TS-PC for the same money. Why arent those DD wheels made?

 

[manc0ntr0]

They are, from 2 sellers if I'm not wrong. From 6Nm up to 12Nm, again if I'm not wrong

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Speed and strength generally go hand in hand with these industrial servo's.

 

[Elaphe]

DD wheels are not so powerful. It's your arms that are weak.

 

[GFJunky]

I have a 10Nm Simucube and on AC with the wheel set to normal sort of FFB levels I get clipping. The higher torque allows you to have no risk of clipping.

 

[dave kirk]

You can get the answer from Google in seconds.
I choose DD with really high forces as I want to recreate the forces from a real steering wheel, some having higher NM than Fanatec and Thrustmaster belt driven wheels.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Overall power is just one aspect, very few of us utilize that power to full extent, it's not that much fun in a long run and for most modern cars not realistic, having extra headroom to avoid signal clipping is handy though.
Torque and ability to quickly accelerate and stop is more important as this is how you get all these little details and additional information on what is going on with the car delivered to your steering wheel directly with very low latency or loss as there are no gears or belt in a path.
Not to mention all extra tuning capabilities of some DD wheels providing additional level of control on the top of FFB signal.

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

Why are DD wheels so powerful? They can breaks your hands and come with an emergency stop button. Hence they are so expensive. I run a TS-PC fairly light (75% in TM software) en around 50% in game settings, as i learned that it is all about the fidelity of the forces, not the strength of the force.
So i would like to have a DD wheel with the max strength of a consumer wheel like to TS-PC for the same money. Why arent those DD wheels made?

If you appreciate fidelity of forces, then you would love a DD. DD's are only as strong as you want them to be - the advantage is the ability to maintain that fidelity you desire at your chosen strength. With your existing wheel you must reduce the available strength to achieve the fidelity you insist on. For example, with a 6nM, if you want to be able to experience a 3 nM jolt on a kerb you can only have 3nM cornering force. A DD frees you from that annoying limitation.

 

[tadopemu]

You can get a simplicity dd kit that is 8nm for around $600. You'd still need a wheel and pedals but that is similar strength to the tspc

 

[Cote Dazur]

Why are DD wheels so powerful? They can breaks your hands and come with an emergency stop button. Hence they are so expensive. I run a TS-PC fairly light (75% in TM software) en around 50% in game settings, as i learned that it is all about the fidelity of the forces, not the strength of the force.
So i would like to have a DD wheel with the max strength of a consumer wheel like to TS-PC for the same money. Why arent those DD wheels made?

Fanatec has heard you. Have you ordered your CSL DD yet?
I have had mine for over a month. 5nm.
What DD is about is: speed, smoothness and details. I am not even using the full strength in my SIM, anymore, as even 5nm is plenty to feel all there is to feel.
Too much strength only provide exaggerated wheel movements, not inducing of immersion.
Too much strength is like if people would shout instead of talking, if you are not death, there is no need to shout. Violent wheel movement can be fun short term, but it gets annoying real quick.
the idea of good FFB is to forget about it and concentrate on the driving.

 

[R8pilot]

I think we are in the midst of a rapid transition from the early he-man 20-30 nm DD wheels to less costly 5-10 nm or so wheels. There is a much broader market for them, for one.

Could you imagine a company like Sony, lets just say, selling a 20+ nm wheel as a PS accessory, given the liability concern that little Johnny might break his wrist his first time using it on Christmas morning? No way! But a 5nm one? Seems workable.

Clipping comes up to justify extremely powerful motors. Sure, but don't forget that you want clipping to happen when little Johnny crashes.

I have a 17nm wheelbase; more powerful than most would use routinely. That said, I do tend to run it a little hot, in the 10-12 nm range. Why? Because it's more engaging - I find it quite fun to fight the wheel!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

People want speed and details, which happen to be the product of power and torque, can't have one without the other.

 

[Cote Dazur]

People want speed and details, which happen to be the product of power and torque, can't have one without the other.

We agree speed and details, but do we need 20 nm electric motors to achieve it, or is a less than 10 nm electric motor more than sufficient?
I think most will agree no one needs 20 nm for the sake of having a wheel offer 20 nm resistance. A well implemented less powerful electric engine is probably a better balanced solution to provide detailed, smooth and lighting fast FFB to the SIM drivers.

 

[stigs2cousin]

As stated above by others I love my 25nm DD wheel ( limited to 20nm for normal racing) because it "engages me", it´s a physical experiences to drive a car around Nordschleife, much more "wrestle an old beast" like the Shelby Cobra around a freeroam.

It´s not the same kind of workout like driving NOS IRL, it doesn´t strain the same way like the real deal.
But the stupid grin afterwards and the soaking wet shirt are the same.

Could i do the same tracks with my T300? Of course!!
Is it a little stupid to spend more on a simulator setup than a lot of peole can spend on theyr dayly driver?? Absolutely.

But why have DD wheels so much power?

Because they can and we want it

MFG Carsten

 

[Deleted member 963434]

its so much torque to better react to real cars forces affecting wheel.. but technology is not so good as it should. If i recall correctly... i dont want to make mistake who said it but i think it was Stefano from assetto corsa dev and he said that some kind of direct_driver from windows or someting is too old, like it was made in 90s and not updated for todays stardarts still..
thing is direct drive wheels are made so powerfull to better/faster react to changes on sim front wheels and follow those wheels better. thats why you need more torque and bigger is better.. the thing is it not work as it should cause of outdated windows driver.... it shall be that steering wheel is always connected to front wheels,, if front wheels do something the steering wheel shal follow immediately and be always 100% connected like throug real steering shaft... but it work TODAY as is front wheels in car in sim doing something,, the steering wheel not follow it but its applied force on it to follow it,, and it makes power to follow them wheels then cut power off and not make someting like counter force to make wheel stay there, wheel not coneted so it oveshoots it and its called OSCILLATIONS.. thats worst thing in simracing TODAY in terms of wheels ffb.. some devs can make it good, others worse. so high torque on DD wheels are for faster reacting, like wheel would be connected, the problem it made is that force may be set so high, if that force is applied to follow front wheels, force may be to high and overshoot the desired point where wheel shall be pointed,,,, so it can make thing as cars itself is not putting steering wheel in position the car is going (as it work in real life , where car go it sets steering wheel in that position and use gyroscopic forces from front wheels onto steering wheel and thus centering itself, the car controll steering wheel with its whole mass),,, and in sims it sometimes may work opposite (the wheel is the thing that sets car onto its path, once car go slide the wheel wants to recenter, then its recentered too powerfull and runs into big oscillations, so it shakes and make whole car turning left to right and crash, like the small mass of 1 kg steering wheel would afect whole 1500+ kg car mass.. that thing i would call horse riding thing)
and its comon in games as AC, pCARS2. hopefully games as AMS2, ACC, RRRE managed to solve that issue very good, but its still not same thing as if wheel would be 100% connected to front wheels and then cars 1500+ kg mass would be that who controll 1 kg steering wheel.. sadly with todays technology its opposite: 1kg wheel controll whole 1500+ kg car mass. if wheel start oscillating, the car starts to make crazy slalom..
its not so BIG DEAL if you always hold wheel in your hand as MOST if not all simracers do, but it breaks immersion and make simracing weird for non simracers when tey try out my rig.
the thing is i found DD wheel with my personal actually made oscillations less than i had on my previous belt driven wheel... its cause i can make "mass" (i would call "steering shaft feel/mass) in my wheel settings, which i wasnt allowed on belt driven wheel.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

so the thing is, if race car slips at 100-200+ km/h its front wide tyres connected/glued to road surface make front wheels countersteer very fast, thats what you need high torque on wheel and big motor to rotate wheel fast enough..
the worst thing is with current ffb technology that:
in real car there is car that weight 1500+kg and steering wheel weight 1 kg, the forces on front wheels is gyroscopic force that makes car go straight and centers steering wheel (same force that make motorcycles or bicycles go forward and not fall on side when they are moving as they are two wheeled vehicles)
the thing is in real life that 1500+ kg mass of car controlls wheel...
and in sim racing its opposite,
in sim racing that 1 kg mass of steering wheel controlls whole 1500 kg car behaviour, its like opposite thing due to todays ffb technology,, i risk to tell its like our steering wheels weight 1500 kg and cars we drive in sims weight 1 kg xD

 

[Deleted member 963434]

the absolutely worst thing is a lot simracers agrree to current state of simracing telling us that "oscillations" are actually "weight" transfer feelt throug ffb. they thing is if it really was eight transfer you could just let off wheel at bumpy road and it would shake as in real car , but it never would put car into weird crazy slide and simracer's wheel when let off becomes crazy spinning fidget spinner,

if it was actual realistic weight transfer you would be allowed not only to let it off and it would just shake slightly but still remain in center, but you would be allowed also to quickly turn it to each direction and it would go straight back to center each time you try to turn it and let it off., as its the 1500 + kg mass of a car that dictates 1 kg steering wheel where it shall be pointed, not the opposite.

 

[Cote Dazur]

, it´s a physical experiences to drive a car around Nordschleife, much more "wrestle an old beast" like the Shelby Cobra around a freeroam.

Funny you mentioned the Cobra, I had the pleasure to drive one for while. Great car.
Acceleration were brutal but they steering, except for parking, was not particularly heavy.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I think most will agree no one needs 20 nm

Not sure about most, I would definitely miss my 25nm. But it's probably the same argument as for why have 300+hp car as a daily driver.
CSL DD is a good introductory consumer grade DD that beats any belt and gear driven wheel, I wouldn't worry about NM in other wheels if it was enough for me personally.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I have to admit that I like having a lot of power too. Especially now that iRacing seems to have put a damper on the crash impulses sent to the wheel. I appears that you can now hang on to the wheel if you hit a wall and not pay for it. I've been tentatively hanging on more and more. I may be getting into bad habits.

Being able to feel what the wheels are doing because you have the extra headroom while you are under load in a turn is nice. With less powerful wheels, their is less headroom to get a sensation through while you are loaded up in a corner.