Why do my front wheels never regain traction in a skid?

[Aaron Cumberland]

Hello,

In the video below, I make a sloppy line error in the first curve of the Variente Ascarti at Monza and aim directly for the terrified little man in the orange jacket standing behind the guardrail. I over-correct the oppostite way to make the curve and end up spinning out of control. I understand that my steering input was obviously way too aggressive and this induced the spin, but I don't understand why my front tires never regained traction under braking during the actual spin.

I'm driving the AC default Aventador SV in 'Pro' mode under ideal track conditions.

I have the ProTyres app open on top of the screen that shows individual tire traction under braking (yellow to red on the tire icons indicates partial to full loss of traction). Additionally, I have the AC Pedals App open that displays real-time throttle and braking input. All tires show loss of traction as the spin ensues (understandable) but as I brake, the front tires never regain traction. At the same time, my counter-steering input as the spin ensues has no effect whatsoever as you can see. The front tires simply never regain any traction at any point until the car comes to a complete stop.

I've noticed this phenomenon several times in which counter-steer has no effect due to total loss of front tire traction in an enveloped spin and I'm just not sure if this isn't a bug with Assetto Corsa physics. Shouldn't the front tires still regain grip under braking at some point before the car comes to a complete stop and facilitate at least some counter-steering input? The way the physics are acting now is almost like the steering locks out completely in a spin and counter-steering is completely futile.

Thank you for any advice or insight you can offer me.

 

[LilSki]

You snapped the car into a spin. The rear tires were in the grass which accelerated the spin. No amount of counter steer would ever stop it. Also your counter steer was just way too late to ever have a chance of saving the car.

 

[BrightCandle]

The car spun because of a combination of steering lock and accelerating while on the grass and then shifting the weight of the car onto the wheels that were on the grass. The spin was not caught because your counter steer was late and too slow to catch it but more importantly you also made the spin worse by going onto the brake. The correct technique for a rear slide catch is to ease off throttle to reduce demand on the rears, counter steer and then catch with steering return.

Why not brakes? Because at this moment shifting the weight forward unloads the weight on the rear making it more happy to come around and in this case you really snap hard onto those brakes which locked the tires and that will enormously unload the rear and with any steering on that is bad news even without the existing slide underway. We ease off the throttle to make the rears work less hard so they can regain traction as the moment they slide they loose 30% of their adhesion so we need to work it 30% less hard for it to regain that traction. We don't want to shift the weight forward on the car too much or we loose our traction budget. Past a certain point in a slide there isn't much you can do and if you respond too slowly you will never catch it anyway.

I hope that helped.

 

[Aaron Cumberland]

Thank you both for taking the time to watch my video and answer my question! BrightCandle, you are absolutely correct in your assessment in regard to how a real car behaves and the proper technique to recover. Assetto Corsa, however, has some kind of physics bug that kicks in at about 65 mph wherein front tire traction simply goes away for some unknown reason in an understeer condition. This according to a detailed thread on Reddit.

In my video above, obviously I caused a snap oversteer (my fault), and the spin was simply not recoverable with my delayed response, loss of traction on the grass as was mentioned, improper use of brakes, etc. The physics bug happens in much more benign conditions where recovery should normally be possible in the real-world, but in Assetto Corsa it is not, unfortunately. Some have managed a technique in the simulation of slamming on the brakes, followed immediately with throttle application and countersteer. It can be done about half the time, but this is simply not realistic.

For me personally, Assetto Corsa is simply too flawed to be enjoyable. Since it's a older sim with no updates forthcoming anymore, I really don't want to waste any more of my time with it and I've uninstalled the program altogether.

Project Cars 2 maybe?

Thank you again you guys for your responses. I very much appreciate your knowledge and helpfulness!

 

[Johnr777]

Assetto Corsa, however, has some kind of physics bug that kicks in at about 65 mph wherein front tire traction simply goes away for some unknown reason in an understeer condition. This according to a detailed thread on Reddit.

This is completely inaccurate. Please consider your source of information...

 

[mclarenf1papa]

You had power oversteer in a 600 whp awd car... not sure what you expect the front tires to do. If your front tires are sliding already, braking will not bring them back (in real life or AC).

Anyway, to be frankly honest, your driving shows approximately zero awareness of the car's behavior at the limit and zero understanding of what to do when it's over the limit. I'd look at that before claiming AC "is simply too flawed to be enjoyable." I'm not saying you don't have an awareness of those things in real life, but if you do, it hasn't transferred to the sim.

 

[Aaron Cumberland]

Well, to be fair, I have zero interest anymore in trying to pretend AC is an accurate simulation. The bug I'm referring to has apparently been fixed in Assetto Corsa Competition, and I'm assuming you guys are using that sim? This may be where the disconnect is between our different experience.

Again, the original Assetto Corsa is an older game that has been discontinued and hasn't been updated in a number of years. I certainly don't expect more from it, but there are great alternatives to provide a much better driving experience.

 

[Johnr777]

Well, to be fair, I have zero interest anymore in trying to pretend AC is an accurate simulation. The bug I'm referring to has apparently been fixed in Assetto Corsa Competition, and I'm assuming you guys are using that sim? This may be where the disconnect is between our different experience.

Again, the original Assetto Corsa is an older game that has been discontinued and hasn't been updated in a number of years. I certainly don't expect more from it, but there are great alternatives to provide a much better driving experience.

I suggest Mario Kart, good banana peel simulation

 

[mclarenf1papa]

I can't tell if he's just trolling or is completely lacking self awareness....



...or is reading Mr. Deap's work...all of the above?

 

[McGherkin]

Did you really say Assetto was flawed and in the same breath suggest PCARS2 was better? Wow.

Anyway, what happened in your video is exactly what would happen if you transitioned from a slide in one direction to steering in the other, with two wheels on the grass.

 

[onearmedbandit46]

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some drivers you just can't reach. So you get what we had here in this thread, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men

 

[StefanoCasillo]

wow he really thinks a car loosing grip at the front tyres will spin?

beautiful

 

[Reik Major]

The sad thing about this thread is, that it started like someone needs help. That's why I clicked it and even nicer people replied.

Later it turned into the conclusion: "Don't feed the trolls!" What a shame.

Better move on quickly to care for more gentle people and positive stuff.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

The sad thing about this thread is, that it started like someone needs help. That's why I clicked it and even nicer people replied.

Later it turned into the conclusion: "Don't feed the trolls!" What a shame.

Better move on quickly to care for more gentle people and positive stuff.

It’s a problem of the OP already having an answer predefined in his head (that the sim is wrong) and therefore not accepting the answers he’s given that contradict it (it’s his driving, etc.).

People that do this (refute answers from even people who can be considered experts in the field) are incredibly frustrating to those trying to help, so chaos ensues as the limit of frustration is quickly reached. Not particularly fair to blame it on them....

 

[Gevatter]

I have the ProTyres app open on top of the screen that shows individual tire traction under braking (yellow to red on the tire icons indicates partial to full loss of traction)

If you go by that and watch the video again, ProTyres still shows both rear tyres as red traction, which would mean a full loss according to your assessment - meaning with full traction loss, how does the car even stop? Why are there 1-2 seconds of no traction after the car already stands still?

I think you shouldn'd go by ProTyres to assess the tyre grip. ACC doesn't have ProTyres, so you have no actual way to tell what the "actual" grip level of a tyre is.

 

[L3TL0W]

the car spun since you didnt really react in time and like previously said , it went onto the grass, next time steer into the skid, then you might have a chance of saving it

 

[Reik Major]

It’s a problem of the OP already having an answer predefined in his head (that the sim is wrong) and therefore not accepting the answers he’s given that contradict it (it’s his driving, etc.).

People that do this (refute answers from even people who can be considered experts in the field) are incredibly frustrating to those trying to help, so chaos ensues as the limit of frustration is quickly reached. Not particularly fair to blame it on them....

Argh, you really got me there, mate.

I tried to say something conciliatory to the helping guys here but completely overlooked the only person who I'd feel sorry for instead of blaming him.

 

[Mr Deap]

I suggest Mario Kart, good banana peel simulation

Well AC is a game, obviously you expect some odd outcome. The car rotate right & you see a total loss of traction right side before the left side at the end of the footage. When you brake in AC the car rotate from the front. OP had front traction the whole time.

If it was real life. The car would simply run into the wall. I mean it would continue to rotate counterclockwise when applying the brake.

 

[RasmusP]

I would suggest to write Lamborghini a letter to tell them how buggy their car is.

I have to say that I find all Lamborghini very difficult to catch, but that's the same for all sims...

 

[Stereo]

I feel like the left tires were both on the grass before the spin happened, at which point of course braking is gonna spin the car right. It's actually a very weird video, 40% on throttle and steering into the grass, then straight on the brakes as soon as the car's not on the track.


Also just saying but there's some kind of grave misunderstanding about how front tire grip works... the more you have the less stable the car is. A car is only naturally going to go straight on the brakes if the front tires have less grip. If you're sliding sideways, you countersteer to reduce the amount of grip generated by the front tires (by reducing their slip angle). That way the car has a tendency to straighten out.